Top 5 Most Cringe-inducing Carpenters Moments:

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BarryT60 said:
I actually found this thread to be allot of fun! Albeit a little awkward... I rememeber trying to justify some of this stuff as it was happening, (Space Encounters, Kid Sister), but for me the winner - or a very close runner up - may be when the choir starts in: The winds might blow through me but I don't mind".. on Now. It almost runins this - one of Karen's last recordings for me

There - I said it.
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I think one of the reasons I "related to" the Carpenters image was that as a teenager in the 70's I was a nerdy kid, considered to be goody-two-shoes, so I felt bad for them always being labeled square and goody-four-shoes when all they wanted to do was make good music. Who cares about image.
 
Karen breaking into a 'Top Of The World', song sample used on Dickie Goodman's 'Energy Crisis '74'...:




-- Dave
 
Then there's Goodman's 'Flying Saucer, Part 1' & 'Part 2' '45', an inspiration for 'Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft', or at least a fore-runner 'World Contact Day'...!


-- Dave
 
I guess something that's usually cringe worthy is when Richard never really even tried to keep up with Karen during the specials, music videos or even interviews. Her charisma and personality shone like light through a prism, and even though he wanted more attention/respect, he never knew how to even fake it. I know he's just there for the music purposes, but jeez, would it have killed him to lighten up? Karen had no idea her days on earth would be numbered and she lived life to the fullest she could, it seemed.

So yeah, Richard as a person is generally cringe-inducing. Oh and lets not get started on that 2002 Carpenter family intro...
 
1. "Your Wonderful Parade" introduction on Offering/Ticket to Ride. Do we have to put up with this every time?
2. Disc Jockey on Medley of "Now and Then". Do we have to put up with this every time?
3. "Making Love in the Afternoon". Gross waste of 2 great talents - Karen C and Peter Cetera. Synergy zero, how could that be - both usually great duet singers??
4. "Richard Carpenter - Producer, Singer, Arranger, whatever" i.e. his second solo album .. boring muzak, not ambitious enough, not good.
5. "Richard Carpenter - Time" I had expected better. Songs set too high in the range, he's a bass for goodness sake. Not a Beachboy at falsetto, and not a Frankie Valli. Had hoped he might establish himself ..
 
george_b said:
1. "Your Wonderful Parade" introduction on Offering/Ticket to Ride. Do we have to put up with this every time?
2. Disc Jockey on Medley of "Now and Then". Do we have to put up with this every time?
3. "Making Love in the Afternoon". Gross waste of 2 great talents - Karen C and Peter Cetera. Synergy zero, how could that be - both usually great duet singers??
4. "Richard Carpenter - Producer, Singer, Arranger, whatever" i.e. his second solo album .. boring muzak, not ambitious enough, not good.
5. "Richard Carpenter - Time" I had expected better. Songs set too high in the range, he's a bass for goodness sake. Not a Beachboy at falsetto, and not a Frankie Valli. Had hoped he might establish himself ..
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Hi, George. Wow, you said a mouthful here...LOL!

1. I don't hate the content of the intro; I just hate the way he specifically put it across. It's like he didn't know what to do with Bettis' words. He needed to sound "pissy" and sarcastic...and it doesn't. On that basis, I totally get what you're saying.

2. Not only do I not like the DJ spots, I don't like the "Oldies Medley". Why waste Karen's voice on an oldies medley? Ack! I can go without all of it. That time could have been better spent on virtually anything else. Sadly, the oldies would resurface again from time to time. The stuff she did of the Great American Songbook variety is wonderful. The "Postman"s and "Beechwoods" can go far away.

3. Totally wretched tune. Cetera has written better songs. It sounds like Karen and Peter were on two different continents two different decades apart. Karen has done well with Richard (why only Richard??) and Peter has done extremely well with Amy Grant, Cher, Crystal Bernard, etc.), but this went nowhere.

4. I've never heard "Producer..." but I had no inclination to buy it given what we got with...

5. Richard's voice when he was younger was interesting. He could do a decent job. It wasn't a great voice but it stayed in tune and it wasn't fey. By the time he hit his 30's, it became very fey, thin, and unattractive. He "doubled" it drowned it reverb but that only made things worse. The best moments on "Time" (and they're are very few) are those when he isn't singing lead at all. "Something In Your Eyes" is nice, though I hate the strings. The rest of the stuff is pretty mundane. Not my favorite record by any stretch. There's no way Karen's solo record could have sold any less than "Time" did either; it's the worst seller in A&M's history if I'm not mistaken. I disagree that he's a bass (he's a baritone/low tenor if he's anything). I contend that he just isn't a lead singer. He could do it when he was younger. Whatever pleasant sound existed went away when his voice deepened with age. Love his vocal arrangements; just not when he's singing lead over them with his "over 30" voice.

Ed
 
"Without A Song" is just amazing and he can more than capably "get down there". He's an amazing background singer and not everyone can be a background singer. You have to be able to blend well and harmonize well and few do it better than him. He's done it with a kid (Scott Grimes), a young adult (his sister), with a middle-aged woman (Dusty an Dionne), and with a 30-something year-old man (Matthew Sweet). Very gifted in that area.

Ed
 
What is all this about "low tenor"? Tenors don't sing low. You do get higher baritones that can sing tenor to a point, but a tenor quality in a voice is unmistakable.

One problem we have with Richard is that the minute he gets at all high in the voice we have this multi-tracked falsetto or something going on. In fact it is hard to think of anywhere where we hear Richard on melody but he is mucking around with his timbre. (He did too much of it with Karen as well but that is another discussion entirely) But here is a clue from Richard himself:

"Both Karen and I felt the magic was in her ‘chest voice’ (a.k.a. ‘basement’). There is no comparison in terms of richness in sound, so I wasn’t about to highlight the upper voice. We did use it every now and again for some arrangemental colorings. For example, you can hear it on 'here to remind you...' on the song 'I'll Never Fall In Love Again'. The second time it is sung, Karen and I cover three octaves; I go to a low F and Karen goes to a high F. That is her head voice. The thirds that are done underneath the second half of the sax solo in 'All You Get From Love Is A Love Song' also feature her head voice."

I have done years and years of choral singing, and in that time I can't recall a tenor who would even try to sing a low F! I am a baritone/1st bass myself - and below a G I can "emit sound" but I am not much use.
Every time Richard opens his mouth to speak, you can hear that he has a deep voice. Based on what I have heard of him, he would most obviously be 2nd bass in my choir. Remember too that on average we all have about 2 useful octaves that we can use - I don't see Richard singing high A, B, C in his natural unamplified voice.

When auditioning chorus members for a community operatic society, we used to have all the new guys turning up claiming to be (lazy) basses actually. The easiest was to test their statement was to get them to sing low notes and the results at times used to be rather amusing. More than one auditioner thanked me later on for telling them where they belonged!

Unfortunately when answering such questions as these about pop idols - I find people giving answers that they THINK should be true, rather than evaluating the evidence.
 
As an example - in the chorus of this song (which would have been nice for Karen) - Richard sings high G and A in falsetto, just like I would actually. A tenor would not need to do this. (Too much vibrato for a pleasing sound here too)


This one (also made for Karen) only needs a high A flat in the chorus - but again its in falsetto. Even a "low tenor" should be good for this note.


Thinking about the tessitura for these songs - I am overwhelming convinced that he has a a lower voice than mine. i.e. The centre of his voice seems to be lower than mine.

His singing on the album suffers - songs set too high. The vibrato is so wobbly, the vocal line patchy. And far too much breath in the voice that a coach should have assisted with in a few months of coaching.
 
george_b said:
What is all this about "low tenor"? Tenors don't sing low. You do get higher baritones that can sing tenor to a point, but a tenor quality in a voice is unmistakable.
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Okay, then, we can do bass-baritone with higher notes. Terms are just terms anyway. Richard absolutely had range on him so I'm good with that correction... :wink:

One problem we have with Richard is that the minute he gets at all high in the voice we have this multi-tracked falsetto or something going on. In fact it is hard to think of anywhere where we hear Richard on melody but he is mucking around with his timbre. (He did too much of it with Karen as well but that is another discussion entirely) But here is a clue from Richard himself:

"Both Karen and I felt the magic was in her ‘chest voice’ (a.k.a. ‘basement’). There is no comparison in terms of richness in sound, so I wasn’t about to highlight the upper voice. We did use it every now and again for some arrangemental colorings. For example, you can hear it on 'here to remind you...' on the song 'I'll Never Fall In Love Again'. The second time it is sung, Karen and I cover three octaves; I go to a low F and Karen goes to a high F. That is her head voice. The thirds that are done underneath the second half of the sax solo in 'All You Get From Love Is A Love Song' also feature her head voice."

I have done years and years of choral singing, and in that time I can't recall a tenor who would even try to sing a low F! I am a baritone/1st bass myself - and below a G I can "emit sound" but I am not much use.
Every time Richard opens his mouth to speak, you can hear that he has a deep voice. Based on what I have heard of him, he would most obviously be 2nd bass in my choir. Remember too that on average we all have about 2 useful octaves that we can use - I don't see Richard singing high A, B, C in his natural unamplified voice.

When auditioning chorus members for a community operatic society, we used to have all the new guys turning up claiming to be (lazy) basses actually. The easiest was to test their statement was to get them to sing low notes and the results at times used to be rather amusing. More than one auditioner thanked me later on for telling them where they belonged!

Unfortunately when answering such questions as these about pop idols - I find people giving answers that they THINK should be true, rather than evaluating the evidence.
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I'm with you here. Thanks for the insight. On "Without A Song" and "When Time Was All We Had", they're in there. As happens with everyone, Richard's voice has deepened with age. His depth wasn't all the way there when Carpenters were just starting out. The problem is, when his lower register developed as he got older, his upper register got very feathery and unlistenable. On "Say Yeah!", he sounds absolutely awful to my ears. In the background, it doesn't bother me. It's only when it leads that it grates on my ears. Why he continued to sing tenor notes while recording "Time" is entirely beyond me.

Ed
 
In early songs like "Druscilla Penny" and "What's the Use" .. he tops out at about an E and I doubt he had much more than that.
In recesses of my memory somewhere, I recall a reading that Frank Pooler had liked Richard's "booming bass" voice .. anyone else recall the source of that?
 
I just re-read "Must"'s riotous and right-on OP and it got me thinking.

"That's..." isn't the most hate-able thing on "Time"; "Say Yeah!" is. Ding Karen for getting silly and lascivious on "Remember When Lovin'" and "Making Love In The Afternoon". Got it. However, Richard is just as guilty with "Say Yeah!". Shocker: it's not a song about playing checkers! "My want has turned to need"..."You move in close; I come undone". LOL! He punctuates the b-sections with "Ring around the roses". Pamela Oland should have never been allowed to write another lyric after that travesty. Richard's singing is the kind of fey, whimpering braying that even Donny Most would have been ashamed of. Karen would undoubtedly scorned Richard mercilessly over this desperate tune had she known he had recorded it.

You'll note I said nothing about the wannabe-edgy-antiseptic-synth-poppy nonsense that masquerades as music in which this "song" is framed.

Ed
 
Certainly in 2013 I might tend to agree that some of this 'Time' stuff may not stand the test of 'time'....

However, I recall when this album first came out, I appreciated the little gems like the Dionne song and the Dusty tune, even Scott Grimes. I suppose I really liked just hearing a little snippet of a Carpenters arrangement magic - even on a few of RC's selections. Still Not Over You is certainly a prime example. above from 3:08 - 3:35... that's a Carpenters arrangement through and through... and it was lovely to hear some new examples of that clarity, that crystal clear attention to detail... I almost think the key in which he sang the song allows those harmonies at the very end to go high enough that Richard very well may have been striving for a sound that was as close to having Karen in the mix as possible...

I remmeber tearing up at this one the first time I heard it, not hearing a love song, but the plight of a brother - and partner facing life without his sister and professional partner.

As for Say Yeah... I dunno... he had to try to grab a different vibe. In much the same way Karen did... I am going with the fact that he realized the error of his ways with the Karen solo project and embraced a little change...

Now, the "ring around the roses" lyric.... ITA!!!!! :) :) :) And again... I realize that some of the output on the album had a little too much of an 80's sound - and could almost be seen as "over-produced", but as for the sheer attempt at something to turn a page and move forward.... while staying true to the root of his lush arrangement techniques... I'll give it a thumbs up.

It was a start. That in my opinion should have led to producing and writing the likes of some of the Disney soundtracks and/or working with artists such as Celine, Trisha, Faith... The early 90s vocalists that had the chops that could match Richard's talents.
 
I don't think Richard realizes the ill of his ways even now when it comes to the solo album. Phil Ramone himself said that Richard has always accepted the solo tunes as his step-children, and that's so true.

My personal take on 'Time' is that it was a valiant effort, and it sounded contemporary in 1987. "Something In Your Eyes", "In Love Alone" and "Time" do indeed stand the test of time, but the rest sounds very dated to my ears. He's just not a lead singer, though he has great chops for backgrounds. "Calling Your Name Again" is a GREAT song, but his leads really didn't cut it.

I always thought the instrumental, "Time", was the strongest track on the album. I just wish he had continued in that vein, and considered doing movie scores. He's so talented, and he would be a stellar composer of movie themes and even Broadway stuff. It's never too late.

The arrangement of "Time" is very much like the theme to "L.A. Law", which was very popular at the time. The sax is very '80's, but it's still a great listen.
 
All things considered, I actually enjoyed (and have listened much more often to) brother Richard’s first solo album much more than Karen’s. Dated? Certainly, but I’d argue that most music is a product of its moment in time and almost should sound dated (many exceptions: new classical music, many sub genres of jazz and pop standards retreads, vis-a-vis Manilow, Stewart, etc.). But that’s why I love listening to “oldies” so much; it takes me back to a particular point in time. In fact, K&R designed an entire album theme around that very notion: that listening to the sitar takes us back to memories of George Harrison and Ravi Shankar or that 80’s synthesizers could take us back to junior high or high school, or whatever we might have been doing then (“...just like before; it’s yesterday, once more”). So being “dated” isn’t a song liability for me; it’s a given.

Also, and something for which I have absolutely NO defense...I love “Say Yeah!” I don’t know why I like it. I just do. Maybe because it was the first thing that jumped out of my speakers when I put on the vinyl that fall in 1987, maybe because it was such a huge departure from what I and everybody else was probably expecting. Being a late bloomer, I completely missed the awkward sexual lyrics (to wit, “...you’ve got to bend, before I break,” um, wha...?) and focused on the songs big energy and Carpenter-esque, yet electrified vocal arrangement. I guess I found it refreshing and hopeful for Richard about what good things might lie ahead...
 
Karen's solo album has considerably greater merit than Richard's. "Still Crazy After All These Years" is an example of what I like about the best tracks on Karen's album. A stunning cover of Paul Simon's single but with elements of real "craziness" in the background vocals. Other tracks with the Rod Temperton-arranged backing vocals sound tight, and the musicians are fizzing.

Unfortunately, Karen's album was marred by some very weak material .. specifically Russell Javors "All Because of You" and "Still in Love with You". We've discussed the Peter Cetera duet - just loved the suggestion that they sound like they were in different continents - not great placement for making love in the afternoon! In my opinion - the combination of alto female and tenor male is an unusual one for a obvious reason - the two voices operate in much the same pitch range. With Karen I would put a higher female voice or a deeper male voice like Richard's.

The other thing that affects our judgment of Karen's solo album is the timing of the release. It really needed to be heard as soon as it was ready, not released as a museum-piece.

Some of us older subscribers have the advantage that we heard all of the Carpenters' material at the time of release, when we were at senior school age in 1970, able to enjoy all the music chronologically in the context of the times. 1970 was the last year of the Beatles. People like Elton John, James Taylor and Bread were emerging as well - the big soft rock singer/songwriter/vocal harmony period. Simon and Garfunkel had "Bridge over Troubled Water". When I was listening to "Close to You", I knew no other Carpenters' song - and when I saw Karen on TV singing this while playing the drums I sensed something very special that I hoped would be around for a very long time!

By comparison, when I listen to songs earlier than say 1963 by other artists, I feel I am looking back into another era. At about the time I was born, "How Much is that Doggie in the Window" was Number One! I really can't make sense of that.
 
Much was made of Richard Carpenter saying that Rod Temperton's vocal arrangements were "Carpenter-esque". I disagree completely. Richard's vocal arrangements were rooted in choral work while Rod's were rooted in jazz. Rod's chord structures are, to my ears, entirely different. Just because Karen's voice is overdubbed (sometimes endlessly) doesn't make it Carpenter-esque. Richard was not the first to come up with the overall concept either. Richard's vocal arrangements are absolutely great but Rod is no slouch either. The stuff he did with Heatwave (Johnny Wilder overdubbed endlessly is just as much fun) is amazing.

Ed
 
ThaFunkyFakeTation said:
Much was made of Richard Carpenter saying that Rod Temperton's vocal arrangements were "Carpenter-esque". I disagree completely. Richard's vocal arrangements were rooted in choral work while Rod's were rooted in jazz. Rod's chord structures are, to my ears, entirely different. Just because Karen's voice is overdubbed (sometimes endlessly) doesn't make it Carpenter-esque. Richard was not the first to come up with the overall concept either. Richard's vocal arrangements are absolutely great but Rod is no slouch either. The stuff he did with Heatwave (Johnny Wilder overdubbed endlessly is just as much fun) is amazing.

Ed
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Right on Ed. Rod Temperton has been widely recognised for his abilities as a vocal arranger, composer, etc. And there was no mistaking the difference between the two approaches I agree.
(Actually I did not know he was English)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Temperton
Some very silly things were said about Karen's solo album.
 
To prove my point, here goes a Heatwave tune (that Karen would have killed, btw) that sports the stuff Temperton does best.



Ed
 
ThaFunkyFakeTation said:
To prove my point, here goes a Heatwave tune (that Karen would have killed, btw) that sports the stuff Temperton does best.



Ed
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Thank you Ed. I did not know Rod Temperton was in the band Heatwave, but I remember the singles very well indeed because they did very well.

Heatwave sound like Philly soul to me. Shades of the Stylistics, Chi Lites (not from Philly actually), etc. But then I am a sucker for Philly soul as well!

Karen could have tried some Philly soul sounds I guess. Elton John did with Mama Don't Buy Me Love and that song had a great feel.

 
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