Top 5 Most Cringe-inducing Carpenters Moments:

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You like Philly Soul? I love the Philly stuff!!! I'm a huge Baker-Harris-Young nut mostly but Thom Bell and Gamble & Huff were great too. I agree with your assessment of Heatwave. By the time of "That's The Way", he was no longer with Heatwave but he continued to write and arrange for them until the band ceased to exist.

I'd heard of the Elton John tune but had never bothered to listen to it until now. Great tune!!! I'm not an Elton fan but that's a groovy little thing the Spinners would have set fire to. In a different key, might have been interesting to hear Karen give that one a go.

Ed
 
george-b- you picked my favorite Elton tune! For once, he sounds relaxed and having fun.
 
Much was made of Richard Carpenter saying that Rod Temperton's vocal arrangements were "Carpenter-esque".


I've always disagreed with Richard in that respect. The vocal harmonies on Karen's album are nothing like the Carpenters' neat, three part stacked chords. If you listen to 'If We Try' using the OOPS effect (from the line "so darling if you/should feel you're lonely tonight..."), they are so complicated and at times, Rod actually has Karen singing out of tune deliberately on some of the harmonies, so they 'clash' for effect or create very unusual contrasts against the lead vocal. It's very, very sophisticated stuff and a credit to Rod Temperton that he broke her out of the old mould.
 
My top 5 cringe inducing moments...

1. Druscilla Penny and Saturday... singlehandedly marred what could have been a near perfect album.

2. "Made In America" from most of the songs to the album cover.

3. Jimmy and Kristy McNichol

4. The Beechwood" video.

5. The OK Chorale
 
You like Philly Soul? I love the Philly stuff!!! I'm a huge Baker-Harris-Young nut mostly but Thom Bell and Gamble & Huff were great too. I agree with your assessment of Heatwave. By the time of "That's The Way", he was no longer with Heatwave but he continued to write and arrange for them until the band ceased to exist.

I'd heard of the Elton John tune but had never bothered to listen to it until now. Great tune!!! I'm not an Elton fan but that's a groovy little thing the Spinners would have set fire to. In a different key, might have been interesting to hear Karen give that one a go.

Ed

Count me down as another Philly-soul lover. Actually, the first concert I ever went to was The Spinners (still one of the greatest concerts I ever went to, too!) The Spinners are my faves (especially the sides they cut with Bell, like "I'll Be Around" and "Could It Be I'm ..."), but I've certainly got no shortage of other Philly-soul records, especially the stuff on Phil. Int'l, like the Three Degrees, the O'Jays, MFSB, Harold Melvin, Lou Rawls, etc.

And I agree with all of you that Temperton is one seriously underrated talent. The list of top-notch singles that man has written and/or produced is one of the most impressive resumes in the history of pop music. "Always and Forever," "Boogie Nights," "The Groove Line," "Rock with You," "Off the Wall," "Thriller," "Give Me the Night," "Stomp!", "Spice of Life" (still my favorite Manhattan Transfer moment, even if it is completely atypical of their usual material), "Sweet Freedom," "Yah Mo B There," "Baby Come to Me," "Love Is in Control" ... I could go on and on. Definitely one of the greatest R&B songwriters of the last forty years, no question.

- Jeff F.
 
What is all this about "low tenor"? Tenors don't sing low. You do get higher baritones that can sing tenor to a point, but a tenor quality in a voice is unmistakable.

(...)

I have done years and years of choral singing, and in that time I can't recall a tenor who would even try to sing a low F! I am a baritone/1st bass myself - and below a G I can "emit sound" but I am not much use.
Every time Richard opens his mouth to speak, you can hear that he has a deep voice. Based on what I have heard of him, he would most obviously be 2nd bass in my choir. Remember too that on average we all have about 2 useful octaves that we can use - I don't see Richard singing high A, B, C in his natural unamplified voice.

When auditioning chorus members for a community operatic society, we used to have all the new guys turning up claiming to be (lazy) basses actually. The easiest was to test their statement was to get them to sing low notes and the results at times used to be rather amusing. More than one auditioner thanked me later on for telling them where they belonged!

Unfortunately when answering such questions as these about pop idols - I find people giving answers that they THINK should be true, rather than evaluating the evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor

Some operatic roles for tenors require a darker timbre and fewer high notes. In theleggero repertoire the highest note is F5 (Arturo in "Credeasi, misera" from Bellini's I puritani),[2] therefore, very few tenors can, given the raising of pitchsince its composition, have this role in their repertoire without transposition.[3] A shift in pitch since the mid 19th century means that the few written top Cs (such as in "Salut demeure" from Gounod's Faust) would have in fact demanded a note at least a semitone lower than today's standard pitch.

(...)

While certain choral music does require the first tenors to ascend the full tenor range, the majority of choral music places the tenors in the range from approximately B2 up to A4.

(...)

Even so, one nearly ubiquitous facet of choral singing is the shortage of tenor voices.[6][7][8] Most men tend to have baritone voices and for this reason the majority of men tend to prefer singing in the bass section of a choir (however, true basses are even rarer than tenors).
 
I think this is right....he's not a bass singer, although on tracks like 'Without A Song' he's more than capable of covering that range. I'd say he's a baritone if anything.

I had a singing teacher who told me the key to classify some voice would be its vocal transition points and that left me with the idea that that was it. However is seems there is more involved:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor

choral and pop music, singers are classified into voice parts based almost solely on vocal range with little consideration for other qualities in the voice. Within classical solo singing, however, a person is classified as a tenor through the identification of several vocal traits, including range, vocal timbre, vocal weight, vocal tessitura, vocal resonance, and vocal transition points (lifts or "passaggio") within the singer's voice.

That said, I bet Richard is really a tenor, not baritone, much less bass. Barry White is a bass.
 
2. “Please Mr. Postman” Video: Is it just me, or is Karen completely high in this video? That’s right, I said it: high. On marijuana. And don’t be shocked, as the siblings purported their support of the legalization of marijuana in a People Magazine publication from the late 1970’s / early 1980’s. True story. Look it up. Not only did Karen look high, but Richard just looked uncomfortable in this video clip, and the Disney smiles and (again) crunchy elbow choreography by Karen didn’t help the duo’s rock cred all that much.

Wasn't she sleepy? The video seems to have been shot very early in the morning, I remember the shadows being stretched out at some moments so the sun was still low on the Horizon...
 
Wasn't she sleepy? The video seems to have been shot very early in the morning, I remember the shadows being stretched out at some moments so the sun was still low on the Horizon...

Maybe it was 4:20 in the afternoon... (wink, nudge). But seriously, though, it’s a distinct possibility that Karen was sleepy, or any number of other reasons why she may have appeared a bit loopy in that clip (e.g., allergy medication, etc.), but given the duo's break-neck work schedule for the previous 5 years and the numerous reports on how Karen was always able, somehow, to summons her energy when it was “showtime,” especially being in good health, as I believe she was in late 1974, I’m inclined to stick with my weed theory.
 
Well.. it was kind'f a goofy thing... being filmed tromping through Disneyland... I'd have been a bit embarrassed and probably looked numb to it as well - no matter the time of day... Can you imagine?

I did have another cringe-worthy thing that came to me while on a run over the weekend... (Gosh, I need to think about other stuff!!!) That version of Close To You on the first television special. The Spike Jones version.... Yuck.

Have a great week everyone!
 
I had a singing teacher who told me the key to classify some voice would be its vocal transition points and that left me with the idea that that was it. However is seems there is more involved:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor

That said, I bet Richard is really a tenor, not baritone, much less bass. Barry White is a bass.


I am almost certain Richard was classified as a bass chorister by Frank Pooler .. just can't remember where I read that.

I followed your link Walter - and read this - "Within classical solo singing, however, a person is classified as a tenor through the identification of several vocal traits, including range, vocal timbre, vocal weight, vocal tessitura, vocal resonance, and vocal transition points (lifts or "passaggio") within the singer's voice"

To my ear, Richard does not have the timbre, weight, tessitura or resonance to suggest he is a tenor.
 
I had a singing teacher who told me the key to classify some voice would be its vocal transition points and that left me with the idea that that was it. However is seems there is more involved:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor

That said, I bet Richard is really a tenor, not baritone, much less bass. Barry White is a bass.

I would say that the true range of both singers might be quite similar. Both resonant in lower register.
 
I am almost certain Richard was classified as a bass chorister by Frank Pooler .. just can't remember where I read that.

Choral voice classification is different, it seems they manage the voices by the relationship they have to each other not by the voice in itself. I'm not an expert though.

I followed your link Walter - and read this - "Within classical solo singing, however, a person is classified as a tenor through the identification of several vocal traits, including range, vocal timbre, vocal weight, vocal tessitura, vocal resonance, and vocal transition points (lifts or "passaggio") within the singer's voice"

To my ear, Richard does not have the timbre, weight, tessitura or resonance to suggest he is a tenor.

Who knows? It is going to be a mistery forever and ever, until the sun turns into a red giant and destroys the Earth. However I have this feeling really deep into my guts, something whispered to me from another dimension, I don't know, that he is a tenor. Listen to when he laughs, he goes to falsetto, I bet that is a tenor trademark though I haven't read it anywhere, lol.
 
What is all this about "low tenor"? Tenors don't sing low. You do get higher baritones that can sing tenor to a point, but a tenor quality in a voice is unmistakable.

One problem we have with Richard is that the minute he gets at all high in the voice we have this multi-tracked falsetto or something going on. In fact it is hard to think of anywhere where we hear Richard on melody but he is mucking around with his timbre. (He did too much of it with Karen as well but that is another discussion entirely) But here is a clue from Richard himself:

"Both Karen and I felt the magic was in her ‘chest voice’ (a.k.a. ‘basement’). There is no comparison in terms of richness in sound, so I wasn’t about to highlight the upper voice. We did use it every now and again for some arrangemental colorings. For example, you can hear it on 'here to remind you...' on the song 'I'll Never Fall In Love Again'. The second time it is sung, Karen and I cover three octaves; I go to a low F and Karen goes to a high F. That is her head voice. The thirds that are done underneath the second half of the sax solo in 'All You Get From Love Is A Love Song' also feature her head voice."

I have done years and years of choral singing, and in that time I can't recall a tenor who would even try to sing a low F! I am a baritone/1st bass myself - and below a G I can "emit sound" but I am not much use.
Every time Richard opens his mouth to speak, you can hear that he has a deep voice. Based on what I have heard of him, he would most obviously be 2nd bass in my choir. Remember too that on average we all have about 2 useful octaves that we can use - I don't see Richard singing high A, B, C in his natural unamplified voice.

When auditioning chorus members for a community operatic society, we used to have all the new guys turning up claiming to be (lazy) basses actually. The easiest was to test their statement was to get them to sing low notes and the results at times used to be rather amusing. More than one auditioner thanked me later on for telling them where they belonged!

Unfortunately when answering such questions as these about pop idols - I find people giving answers that they THINK should be true, rather than evaluating the evidence.
Does anyone else hear the beginning of an old McDonalds commercial when you hear the beginning melody of this song? "Calling your name".
 
My top 5 cringe inducing moments...

1. Druscilla Penny and Saturday... singlehandedly marred what could have been a near perfect album.

2. "Made In America" from most of the songs to the album cover.

3. Jimmy and Kristy McNichol

4. The Beechwood" video.

5. The OK Chorale
Bingo! Right on the money!
 
Wasn't she sleepy? The video seems to have been shot very early in the morning, I remember the shadows being stretched out at some moments so the sun was still low on the Horizon...
Oh my gosh, I laughed so hard when I saw the crunchy elbows comment about Karen. I thought I was the only one that thought it was terrible. I saw them in 1973 in concert at Pacific Lutheran University and Karen's onstage presence was very silly and contrived. She was much better when I saw her a few years earlier in Portland Oregon. I dunno what happened.
 
2. “Please Mr. Postman” Video: ... and (again) crunchy elbow choreography by Karen didn’t help the duo’s rock cred all that much.
Yup, the "crunchy" dancing comments slayed me, too! Yet they're so true. I always cringed when Karen did that with her arms. It's like she was trying to move with the music, but it was just ... blech! Richard? Forget it! As for what happened to improve things (at least for Karen), I recall from Randy's book that Terry Ellis stepped in and coached Karen on her stage presence.
 
I dunno. Growing as artists and people involves a lot of goofy decisions (thankfully cameras weren't around as I did it) but those music video moments at Disneyland weren't ( to me ) as cringe-inducing as the Tonight Show episode with that smothers brother or the infamous UK "weight in stone" interview.
 
Yes, the UK weight in stone interview was just plain thoughtless, insensitive, rude, un necessary etc... The media can be so incredibly stupid. I was amazed how calm and gracious Richard and Karen remained and held it together. Very hard to see Karen so ill yet trying to be positive, optimistic and in control while her life was spinning not only out of control but on the edge of life's cliff. I miss her (even though she had crunchy elbows...laugh!)
 
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The Space Encounter Special - & I am not fond of the Grease situation on some concert footage. Parts were cute - but most of it seemed just just dumb IMHO... I much prefer them doing their thing - straight-away...
 
The Space Encounter Special - & I am not fond of the Grease situation on some concert footage. Parts were cute - but most of it seemed just just dumb IMHO... I much prefer them doing their thing - straight-away...

I think I've seen the Grease concert footage. Call it naiveté if you will, but I laughed -- anybody with the guts to go out on stage like that and still sound decent (especially Karen) gets respect from me! The television specials (albeit cheesy) don't bother me, either. Even the Mr. Postman video I like... I always thought Karen had this energy that made it fun to watch, especially next to Richard's "I-don't-know-why-you're-making-me-do-this" grinning face during most of it. I've got a young perspective indeed, but I find it pretty hard to find anything abhorrent with Carpenters... it's just a shame some of the stuff listed here has marred their image/popularity.

With that said, I never really cared for the chorale sound. It doesn't bother me enough to spiel about it, but I'm sure like most of you, I'm not fond of it. One of the most alluring parts of their sound was their multi-tracked harmonies, and sometimes it feels different replacing it.
 
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