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Tumtimes versus Sometimes

newvillefan

I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Thread Starter
I've listened to the album version of this track again today for the first time in ages. When this track was remixed, Richard explained that he replaced the loss of Karen's "S" on "tumtimes" due to an inaccurate "punch in" at 1:44, with his own (lispy) "S". But if you listen to the original track, at 1:56, Karen sings a perfectly enunciated "S" on the line "something deep within me sighs". Why wasn't that used?
 

GDB2LV

Well-Known Member
I was never thoroughly convinced that was the real truth. She kind of talked like Richard at times, and it was a lisp we hear. No proof. Just pretty good ears. It also sounds like Karen sings “sheck it and see” instead of check on PMP., and take me to a “store” on IJFILA. Always bugged a bit. I just chalked it up to her New England accent.
 

Harry

Charter A&M Corner Member
Staff member
Moderator
I've listened to the album version of this track again today for the first time in ages. When this track was remixed, Richard explained that he replaced the loss of Karen's "S" on "tumtimes" due to an inaccurate "punch in" at 1:44, with his own (lispy) "S". But if you listen to the original track, at 1:56, Karen sings a perfectly enunciated "S" on the line "something deep within me sighs". Why wasn't that used?
I think I once posited the same question and think that may have had to do with the available editing tools of the day.
 

Carpe diem

Well-Known Member
I've never thought Please Mr Postman was a very strong Karen performance. It's still mind boggling that it reached #1.
 

Chris May

Resident 'Carpenterologist'
Staff member
Moderator
I've listened to the album version of this track again today for the first time in ages. When this track was remixed, Richard explained that he replaced the loss of Karen's "S" on "tumtimes" due to an inaccurate "punch in" at 1:44, with his own (lispy) "S". But if you listen to the original track, at 1:56, Karen sings a perfectly enunciated "S" on the line "something deep within me sighs". Why wasn't that used?
It's very possible that attempts were made to do this, but it has to sound somewhat natural in order for them to justify flying a consonant or syllable over from another phrase. If the syllable transition doesn't match up from one to the other, it won't work.
 

Harry

Charter A&M Corner Member
Staff member
Moderator
I attempted this edit today with some success. I believe that with further massaging, it could sound natural, but I ran out if time to play with it further.
 

Chris May

Resident 'Carpenterologist'
Staff member
Moderator
I attempted this edit today with some success. I believe that with further massaging, it could sound natural, but I ran out if time to play with it further.
Can be done much more easily nowadays. Back in '87, ProTools really wasn't around. I mean, it was, but it hadn't been fully developed and released publicly. They would have had to fly the isolated lead out of the master onto another piece of tape, then back over to the master on a separate track, lined up just right in order to crossfade and mix it in. Easier said than done LOL
 

Harry

Charter A&M Corner Member
Staff member
Moderator
It took all of 15 minutes in Audacity to locate and then fly in the other "s" sound. I just laid it over the defective sound and faded it in. As I said, it was serviceable, but still a little rough. But real life called to me and I abandoned it, satisfied that it could be perfected with a little more massaging.
 

goodjeans

Active Member
I love Karen discussing her lisp without actually stating a lisp on Bruce Forsythe. He began to needle Karen about how she would pronounce his name on promotional clips. Karen said something like whoa, back off and then admitted to saying BF instead of his full name to solve any speech issues. Adorable.
 

Carpe diem

Well-Known Member
The lisp with Richard is a huge deficit to his lead vocal abilities. Not so much when he sang harmony with Karen (in which they were outstanding together). With Karen, her lisp was not so noticeable and I might add, contributed to the sultriness of her delivery (example; This Masquerade).
 

Mike Blakesley

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Moderator
Funny, I never thought of Richard having a lisp - I thought it was an effect brought on by multitracking his vocals.
 

Harry

Charter A&M Corner Member
Staff member
Moderator
In this era of political correctness, I would think it would be rather un-cool to be picking on someone's speech defect, and let's face it, that's what a lisp is. I'm old-school and don't need the P.C. stuff - my mother taught me not to bring up others' physical attributes, good or bad - it just wasn't proper.
 

Jarred

Well-Known Member
I don’t think anyone here is mocking Richard’s lisp, but rather pointing out the fact that there’s no way you can’t say he doesn’t have one. I never really noticed that Karen had one when talking or singing because her diction was always so precise and anything different could be chalked up to a New England accent (I wrote this and right after noticed someone above had also suggested this possibility!). Kind of reminds me of “no need to toke it out...” Being from around that area (NE) I love those specific regional phrasing’s.

I don’t know the whole “tumtimes” deal but it sounds just like a one-off goof and I’m glad the remix fixed it, and I have noticed the “shek”’ it on Postman and I thought it gave it some more personality somehow yet never actually realizing that it was said properly.
 

Harry

Charter A&M Corner Member
Staff member
Moderator
I don’t think anyone here is mocking Richard’s lisp,
I swear that some of you fans would mock Richard if he had a limp. There's a contingent here that puts Richard down every chance they get, and raise Karen to sainthood status no matter what. But in reality, both of these individuals are human and they have their flaws and they have their greatnesses. I prefer to look at positives in all phases of life.
 

Jarred

Well-Known Member
I swear that some of you fans would mock Richard if he had a limp. There's a contingent here that puts Richard down every chance they get, and raise Karen to sainthood status no matter what. But in reality, both of these individuals are human and they have their flaws and they have their greatnesses. I prefer to look at positives in all phases of life.
But we’re not talking about the potential negatives that could be said about him here specifically. Pointing out that he has a definite lisp isn’t making fun of him, and I saw absolutely no indication that in the few mentions on the thread it was aimed for that. I don’t think we would mention it to his face but that doesn’t mean it’s a criticism beyond the fact that it kept him from being a solid lead vocalist. I can identify with some of the strongly mixed feelings about Richard personally, but I don’t see remarks about a lisp being an attack on his character (the kind that really get controversial here).
 

Geographer

Well-Known Member
I swear that some of you fans would mock Richard if he had a limp. There's a contingent here that puts Richard down every chance they get, and raise Karen to sainthood status no matter what. But in reality, both of these individuals are human and they have their flaws and they have their greatnesses. I prefer to look at positives in all phases of life.
Could not have said it any more succinct, Harry. Thank you.
 
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