VOLUME 2, WARM and THE BRASS ARE COMIN' on iTunes!

[bob]

mike, thank you for giving me the web page to go to to download volume 2. see that was the problem I did not have the right url. so I got the right one thanks to you. and now I am listing to volume 2. but the sound seems compressed. and no high end. so thanks again mike for your help.
btw. did herb play his benge trumpet on volume 2?. becasue to me since I play the trumpet since 1968 his tone sounded different. I read somewhere that he played in his early days he played a King silver flair.
becasue maybe that is why herb said volume 2 sounded to tinney. anyone here in the forum could answer this question. so again many thanks mike for all your help.
take care
bob

 

[Dore Adler]

This is tremendously disappointing! I have not seen anyone specify what kind of file it is we are to download -- but since everyone seems to refer to 'lossy' formats, I'm assuming it's mp3 or AAC, and not WAV or AIF or any other lossless format?

If true, then I take it we are all going to have to download the lossy file, up-convert it to a burnable file, download and print artwork, and put it in jewel-cases that won't match the look of the other releases in this series.

This isn't what I waited for.

I do hope that Japan or some other country licenses these albums (and Summertime). I'm willing to pay more for the right to make my own files from a cd at a higher bit-rate. I can't stand the idea of paying ten bucks for lossy mp3's!

 

[bob]

hi people, as I read a lot of you here were very disapointed as to the sound quality of the itunes quality, this is what I did. there is a software that is at best buy or compusa, or here in cleveland,ohio called micro center it is called audio cleaning lab 11 by magix. what that does is it takes out 95%
of the ticks and pops out of vinyl records and it brightens the sound of CD's
it is $39.00 dollars. and I did it with volume 2 and it sounds a lot brighter.
bob

 

[Captaindave]

btw. did herb play his benge trumpet on volume 2?. becasue to me since I play the trumpet since 1968 his tone sounded different. I read somewhere that he played in his early days he played a King silver flair.
becasue maybe that is why herb said volume 2 sounded to tinney. anyone here in the forum could answer this question. so again many thanks mike for all your help.
take care
bob

I have owned two Silver Flairs made pursuant to the original design. I own one of them at this time. The King Silver Flair was first introduced in 1964. Since I am sure that Volume 2 was recorded before 1964, the Silver Flair would not have been used on that album.

The Silver Flairs made pursuant to the original design definitely does NOT have any "tinny" sound. It is a large bore trumpet that can produce rich, bright, room filling sound.

There is some similarity in playing characteristics between a Silver Flair and a Benge, but a good player will sound very much the same on either of them, and you could not tell by listening to the recording which horn might have been used, or maybe it was some other horn.

 

[alpertfan]

I echo the sentiments of those who are disappointed, but to avoid being lynched by the Mods, I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Dore Adler]

mike, thank you for giving me the web page to go to to download volume 2. see that was the problem I did not have the right url. so I got the right one thanks to you. and now I am listing to volume 2. but the sound seems compressed. and no high end. so thanks again mike for your help.
btw. did herb play his benge trumpet on volume 2?. becasue to me since I play the trumpet since 1968 his tone sounded different. I read somewhere that he played in his early days he played a King silver flair.
becasue maybe that is why herb said volume 2 sounded to tinney. anyone here in the forum could answer this question. so again many thanks mike for all your help.
take care
bob

What Herb doesn't like about Vol. 2 is that the mix is over-compressed. This is what gives it that flat, tinny sound. I'll go further and say that it seems a bit distorted at times. But, hey, that's just the way it is -- there are loads of other recordings out there that sound the same or worse from that period. I still love it, warts &all!

Of course, Warm does not have this problem, so it's easy to jump to the conclusion that it is the weak sales in the past that has left these titles out of the running for a wider release. I'd love a clearer answer as to how they arrived at this particular route they've taken -- my crystal ball ain't been working very well lately!

 

[Harry]

Herb owns and controls the masters. Shout! Factory can only release what Herb wants released in whatever form Herb wants it released.

Apparently, this idea needs repeating.

Harry

 

[lswilson99]

Then shame on Herb Alpert for not considering the feelings and wishes of his life-long loyal and patient fans that have helped to make him a very wealthy man!

Len

 

[Harry]

Have the life-long fans considered Herb's feelings and wishes on the matter? Apparently not all of us.

Harry

 

[PartyRico]

Greetings A&Mers on the WWW. I hope I don't offend anyone here. I just wanted to say, that I get the feeling here, that there is some resentment about Herb's decision to market his music in this relatively new I-Tunes format. We can't stop "progress". With that said, we die-hard fans KNOW that I-Tunes or MP-3 lossy files can NEVER sound as good as CD's or even Open-Reel Pre-Recorded tapes (R.I.P.). Some might even argue that I-Tunes do not sound as good as Audiophile A&M pressings or the later high-end cassettes that came out.
But like someone else so correctly stated yesterday, the music business is a "business"first and foremost. A certain rap song from years ago says: "If it don't make dollars it don't make cents (sense)!" Amen. If Mr. Herb Alpert and Shout! do not make money on these endeavours (re-issues whether on I-Tunes or CD discs) they will cease to be.
If Mr. Herb Alpert did not care about us die-hard fans, why bother to re-issue any thing at all? Perhaps we should be more grateful for all the Treasures (Lost and otherwise) that we have received over the years. My favorite definition of music is that it is "love transformed into sound". Let's not confuse the trees with the forest, and let's be open to that exquisite form of love known as music, and Herb and Lani sure have dished it out Big-Time! And best of all I believe there is more to come, there is more where it came from. It seems to me, that Mr. Alpert is a very giving and loving person, as witnessed also by his philanthropic work. As the rappers also say: "Think we'd better recognize".....Bernie Medina over and out.

 

[NYCDguy]

Perhaps we should be more grateful for all the Treasures (Lost and otherwise) that we have received over the years.

To say that we should be grateful to Herb is a one-sided way of looking at it. Yes, we are grateful for all the music and entertainment he's given us over the years. And in return, we, his audience, have made him a very wealthy and successful man. So I'd say we're about even.

If we're demanding the opportunity to give him more money via purchases of his CDs, I don't see why that's wrong or mean. It may not make business sense for him or Shout! Factory to release them, but we're certainly within our "rights" to be upset about it.

 

[Harry]

Did you ever take a roll of pictures with a film camera? You'd take it to the store to be developed, and you get back 24 or 26 prints. Then you'd look at them and some were great, some were good, and some were just awful. When you'd show them to others, you'd highlight the great ones, give credit to the good ones, and kind of shuffle past the awful ones. "That's blurry, don't pay it any attention."

Think of Herb's albums as a group of photos he's showing us. Some of them he's very proud of: WHIPPED CREAM with its specialness and bonus tracks, the upcoming RISE with its bonus tracks. Some he likes but lumps together - the groups of three albums that came out in 2005.

Then there's the "blurry" photos: WARM, VOLUME 2, BRASS ARE COMIN'. Perhaps to Herb, these are items he's not proud of for whatever reasons, and probably doesn't think they should even be in release.

We, the fans, always want more. We'd go buy an album of Herb practicing trumpet runs if it came out, but to him it would just be noise. Yeah, I can understand the disappointment, but try to look at the situation from both sides.

Harry

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Actually, using your photo analogy, I usually THROW AWAY the bad and blurry ones, so we're lucky Herb didn't decide to do that with these three records.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Analogy: Imagine if Herb had chosen to release Summertime on 8-Track only in 1971 because Warm and The Brass Are Comin' didn't sell well. No LP, no open-reel tape...just 8-Track. Sure 8-Tracks were convenient, but they didn't sound as good. And that's where we are with digital downloads today.

The issue is technology. Until we're all dealing with terrabytes for our home computers, laptops and iPods, downloading is going to involve compression to reduce file size. After the terrrific remastered CDs of the first 12 (minus Volume II, but with Lost Treasures and Re-Whipped), an iTunes-only release is a big step down.

I don't think Herb owes us anything. I've got a great CD copies of Warm, The Brass Are Comin', Volume II and Summertime from pristine open-reel tapes. But I would have liked to have had Herb's fresh re-master, along with the booklet with photos and insights as to what was going on when these albums were concieved and recorded.

And, as I said in an earlier post, it's tragic that Herb himself doesn't seem to know just how good Warm in particular is.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[spanky1]

.....snipped....
Then there's the "blurry" photos: WARM, VOLUME 2, BRASS ARE COMIN'. Perhaps to Herb, these are items he's not proud of for whatever reasons, and probably doesn't think they should even be in release.

We, the fans, always want more. We'd go buy an album of Herb practicing trumpet runs if it came out, but to him it would just be noise. Yeah, I can understand the disappointment, but try to look at the situation from both sides.

Harry

I would have to respectfully disagree with this. If Herb truly felt this way, they wouldn't be on ITunes. If this was an artistic statement, they wouldn't see the light of day in any new formats.

Let's not make this out to be any more or any less than it is......a business decision. There is nothing wrong with this, and Herb has earned the right to do with his masters what he desires. But, to paint a picture of this being some kind of artistic embarassment is a bit naive.

I'd like to agree with NYCDGuy with his statement that loyalty cuts both ways.

Regardless, this has livened up the board that had died a bit during the past few months. Great debate, and quite a polarizing topic.

Michael H.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Sure 8-Tracks were convenient, but they didn't sound as good. And that's where we are with digital downloads today.

Not exactly. When 8-tracks were popular, the LP was still by far the most popular format. There was no other way to release music, other than on LP or tape. And 8-tracks were a SERIOUS compromise in quality...not only didn't they sound as good, but you either had to rearrange the songs to allow for the track breaks, or (even worse) cut the songs in the middle, or repeat songs to fill in space. And, the tapes would easily tangle, rendering them useless.

With digital downloads, it's possible to get music into the public eye with most of its sound and sequencing intact, in a reliable format that most people can use with little effort, and without going to the expense of manufacturing, transporting, packaging. If you break or scratch your CD, it's easy to make another one, unlike any packaged format. It should be a win/win situation for all - we get the important stuff (the music) at a reduced cost, and the owner and manufacturer take minimal financial risk.

 

[PartyRico]

Mike B. I believe your last paragraph above sums up a lot. We are simply witnessing the "forces of our Free Market" at work. I don't feel we made Herb rich. It's the other way around, Herb Alpert, Lani Hall, Sergio Mendes, and the awesome and unique A&M record "stable" has made us and our world all the richer! Mr. Herb Alpert is a National Treasure and he is still busting out great, great work to please the demand when he could be relaxing in Hawaii, Reykjavik (in summer) , or Paris. I'd hate to see us "kill the goose of the Golden Eggs"! Elvis suffered just such a fate from the "hangers on". Like the late great John Lennon wrote: "Christ you know it ain't easy..... You know how hard it can be..... The way things are going...... They're gonna crucify me"!

 

[Michael Hagerty]

No one's crucifying Herb. We're making our feelings known. We'd rather give him $16.98 for his product the right way than $9.98 for something less.

Downloads may replace CDs eventually, but as the decision to issue the first dozen of the Alpert project show, they haven't yet.

The folks who make the business decisions are likely to accelerate that move if they think we're okay with it. This thread (and the fact that CD sales overwhelmingly outnumber legal downloads) is proof that a large number of us aren't.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Point taken, but even cassette sales overwhelmingly outnumbered CD sales for quite a while. New formats don't pop into #1 overnight. Digital is growing by leaps and bounds; CDs are declining. They're going to be around for a long time, for sure; but this particular release of Herb's is probably the way of the future for a lot of small-selling reissues, especially those produced by small companies such as Shout!Factory.

In the future, there will probably be lots and lots of old music that's only available in some electronic form. Old TV shows will be the same way. I'd rather have it available that way, than not at all.

 

[PartyRico]

By the way, I have NEVER EVER purchased an I-Tunes Download. I have an I-Pod which was a gift from my dear brother. I have a "guttural" dislike for downloads mostly for their lack of sound quality. But the market will take it's own course based on many factors, few of which we can control. But I am enjoying this debate and agree it's added a bit of "spice" to it. Thankfully we here at A&M Corner can "agree to dissagree without being dissagreeable." Ya gotta love this site!

 

[manifan]

Add me to the list of those who are disappointed. I don't like contributing to a medium that is helping to destroy music stores.

While I do understand the decision to put Herb's music on Itunes -- and that IS a good decision -- the albums should have also been released on CD to give Herb's die-hard older fans a choice. Like others, I want a physical product I can hold in my hand -- not some cheap, cold, invisible data on my hard drive that reduces the beauty that is music to a nonentity. It's criminal what is happening to the music world, and what's worse is that consumers are doing nothing to stop it.

I'm all for improvements in technology. But this is a step backwards, IMO.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I have been following this thread and feel pretty much the way the rest of you feel. However, I do not agree with this sentiment that we are supposed to bite our tongues, smile and say "thank you sir" ("may I have another?"). ITunes may be a very real part of today's Internet business model, but so is the power for consumers to speak their minds and say they are not happy with a product.

As far as I can tell, no one has stated definitively whether it is possible that Mr. Alpert and/or Shout Factory are simply "testing the waters" with these 3 titles on ITunes rather than risking the investment in manufactoring CDs that end up in the $1.99 bin. Either that, or perhaps the idea is to hit us up twice (if they sell) by actually putting them out on CD after the ITunes downloads subside (sort of akin to the "special edition" DVD gimmick that gets people to dip into their wallets more than once for the same title).

I don't have a real problem with downloading music, although I would like to have nice packaging to go with it (to complete the collection), and not an inferior homemade variety, as has already been expressed by several others. I also agree that at least they ought to be made available in a lossless format if we can't have them on CD. However, that may be another "business decision" designed to discourage bootlegging. I find it a bit ironic that Mr. Alpert supposedly disliked the cold or tinny sound of Vol. 2, so what does he do? He releases it in a compressed 128 bit rate.

Go figure.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

What's funny about that is, I don't find the sound of VOLUME 2 to be cold or tinny. To me, THE LONELY BULL sounds "less good" than V2. That may be "just me," and some tweaking of V2 might have been done, but to me it sounds pretty good for an early 1960s album, download or no.

 

[PartyRico]

I'd like to point out that we have already bought the music twice, and in many cases many times over. I have for example bought the original Lps. Then I bought my favs on pre-recorded Open-Reel Tapes, a wonderful format for it's time. Then I bought some on 8 tracks for the car. Not a very good product, but it was great to hear "Mexican Road Race" while driving. Then came the pre-recorded cassettes created by Phillips. Later the Cd's and now I-Tunes. I hope we are all around when the next "flavor of the week" format rolls out. I wish I could buy Herb's paintings or sculptures..... Now that is truly "slightly" over my budget! Life is great in America, we can "bitch" about the little things cause the BIG things are taken care of. Hallelujah, thank you Jesus and our Founding Fathers.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

I'd like to point out that we have already bought the music twice, and in many cases many times over. I have for example bought the original Lps. Then I bought my favs on pre-recorded Open-Reel Tapes, a wonderful format for it's time. Then I bought some on 8 tracks for the car. Not a very good product, but it was great to hear "Mexican Road Race" while driving. Then came the pre-recorded cassettes created by Phillips. Later the Cd's and now I-Tunes. I hope we are all around when the next "flavor of the week" format rolls out. I wish I could buy Herb's paintings or sculptures..... Now that is truly "slightly" over my budget! Life is great in America, we can "bitch" about the little things cause the BIG things are taken care of. Hallelujah, thank you Jesus and our Founding Fathers.

Just go to Herb's website and click on the thumbnails and save the pics, then print them...that's what I did. They're a little small, but I don't have a lot of room on the side of my bookcase, anyway.

If there were a way for Herb to release these albums on CD and have everyone benefit, he'd do it! I think everybody knows that...sometimes I think we expect too much from him...the market has to be there for any product to see the light of day, and nobody knows the market for his music better than Herb Alpert...he didn't get to be a bazillionaire for nothing.



Dan