JOv2
Well-Known Member
Surely. Yet, to give us the bare minimum -- recording dates (which are expected to be routine to locate) -- should have at least been provided for Lost Treasures.
WARM sessions: February 11, 1969*
- Thread starter abstract_fan
- Start date
TjbBmb
Well-Known Member
I’ll bet Frank DeVito is in there somewhere.Nah, it's way too "alive" to be the Sandpipers.
Charles H.
Well-Known Member
Regarding the vocalise on the BMB's "Flyin' High," Rudy said, "My money is on this being the Baja members (use the in-house talent--it's cheaper) or less likely, hired studio singers."
Does that also apply to the 'party atmosphere' vocalise on the BMB's "Fresh Air"?
Charles
Does that also apply to the 'party atmosphere' vocalise on the BMB's "Fresh Air"?
Charles
Found this info:
Session date: July 12, 1967
The Continental
Herb Alpert--trumpet
Nick Ceroli--drums
Bob Edmondson--trombone
Tonni Kalash--trumpet
Lew McCreary--trombone
Lou Morrell--bass, guitar
Lou Pagani--piano
John Pisano--guitar
Pat Senatore--bass
Bill Earl
Sal Monte
Session date: April 10, 1969
O Mar e Meu Chao (The Sea Is My Soil)
Without You
Girl Talk
Apple Jale
Samarina (Pretty World)
John's Tune (Sandbox)
James Getzoff--violin
Gerald Vinci--violin
Nathan Ross--violin
Wilbert Nuttycombe--violin
Arnold Belnick--violin
Gareth Nuttycombe--viola
Allan Harshman--viola
Alvin Dinkin--viola
Edgar Lustgarten--cello
Frederick Allykors
Raymond Kelley--cello
Jules Chaikin--trumpet
Lanny Morgan--sax
Lou McCreary--trombone
Jack Nimitz--sax
Ernie Tack--trombone
Session date: July 12, 1967
The Continental
Herb Alpert--trumpet
Nick Ceroli--drums
Bob Edmondson--trombone
Tonni Kalash--trumpet
Lew McCreary--trombone
Lou Morrell--bass, guitar
Lou Pagani--piano
John Pisano--guitar
Pat Senatore--bass
Bill Earl
Sal Monte
Session date: April 10, 1969
O Mar e Meu Chao (The Sea Is My Soil)
Without You
Girl Talk
Apple Jale
Samarina (Pretty World)
John's Tune (Sandbox)
James Getzoff--violin
Gerald Vinci--violin
Nathan Ross--violin
Wilbert Nuttycombe--violin
Arnold Belnick--violin
Gareth Nuttycombe--viola
Allan Harshman--viola
Alvin Dinkin--viola
Edgar Lustgarten--cello
Frederick Allykors
Raymond Kelley--cello
Jules Chaikin--trumpet
Lanny Morgan--sax
Lou McCreary--trombone
Jack Nimitz--sax
Ernie Tack--trombone
JOv2
Well-Known Member
Man, does this throw out the questions!
- Is there a chance that what was used on Warm was from a more recent session -- or is this their only recording of this selection? (The recording date puts this into Ninth territory).
- Does this in any way confirm that Tonni indeed played on the take used? (I ask because the horns sounds like the usual double-tracked Herb to me.)
- Wonder if Bill or Sal played the steel pans?
That's hard to say, as he could also have played as part of an ensemble vs. being Herb's foil. Also, two trombones? I never recall hearing any on that track. So yes, it could be an earlier arrangement of the song that wasn't released, or perhaps the additional brass were cut out of the final mix (if this was recorded on A&M's own 8-track equipment, vs. recording at the 3-track Gold Star). There are other times an earlier-recorded track was placed on a later album, such as "Third Man Theme" being the flip side to "Taste of Honey," yet it didn't appear until Going Places.
While we don't yet see it listed, I wonder about the horn dates, such as that used on "Zazueira" and "Warm." (And could "Apple Jale" be an early title for "Warm," or maybe an early title for "Marjorine," another one that uses horns?) Obviously strings weren't needed for those.
That also leaves out the assumption that everyone who appeared for a tracking session actually recorded anything or not. And then, too, many still think that all of the TJB played on all of the records, including Tonni. (Despite 20+ years of us here knowing otherwise!)
I wonder if "1967" is a typo and it's really 1969 -- it would be similar to other album sessions that covered dates over a moth or two period for each album...
And, not to open old debates on the Tonni Kalash thing, but I recall somewhere that Tonni would sometimes be at the sessions to lay a reference track for Herb to make sure his doubled horn was "right" and then Herb would re-record himself as the second trumpet. I think it was in our old friend Wendell's interview with Pat Senatore -- which revealed some other "dirt" about the Tijuana Brass (which Wendell judiciously left off the "released" portions of the interview)...
--Mr Bill
And, not to open old debates on the Tonni Kalash thing, but I recall somewhere that Tonni would sometimes be at the sessions to lay a reference track for Herb to make sure his doubled horn was "right" and then Herb would re-record himself as the second trumpet. I think it was in our old friend Wendell's interview with Pat Senatore -- which revealed some other "dirt" about the Tijuana Brass (which Wendell judiciously left off the "released" portions of the interview)...
--Mr Bill
JOv2
Well-Known Member
I also recall reading that years ago but it seems unlikely.
For one thing, Herb wrote out those parts (on a few occasions the harmony part seems on-the-spot casual) and he knows the artistic nuances of the part better than anyone, which would reduce the need for anyone else to record it. Also, he was successfully double-tracking his horn from the start, which would question any need to deviate from what is clearly a successful approach. Lasty, to Rudy's point: it's aurally evident much of the brass was recorded in real time -- minimally, at least the base rhythm section (drms, bs, gtr, pno, mar). Although Herb could have tracked the lead trumpet, I get the feeling from those essentially useless Josh Kuhn essays, that Herb liked spontaneity; so, I always presumed he rehearsed the brass to get the arrangement down -- but did not rehearse to perfection (Herb's '60s recordings had a casual looseness that is 180 to Steely Dan) -- then they would later regroup and record a selection in a couple takes. Herb would then probably track the additional trumpet(s) and subsequently add any sweetening...
TjbBmb
Well-Known Member
This made me think about how important Herb’s double tracked trumpets were and how much different they would of sounded had Tonni actually played them on record.
Hearing the few live clips we have, Tonni always seems to overpower Herb and the harmonies never seem quite right, (especially in the later years where Herb started playing the bottom notes and Tonni was playing the lead parts) which makes me think it possibly would of sounded better had Herb been the only trumpet player in the live band.
Granted, it would of been drastically different without the two trumpets, but I think it may have been a cool sound and would of given Herb more freedom to embellish the melodies.
Now, I know the point of the live TJB was to get the songs close to the record, but stylistically, I think this might of sounded hipper.
All in all, I think the point is no one in the world sounded like Herb, so anyone trying to match his sound would be nearly impossible.
Hearing the few live clips we have, Tonni always seems to overpower Herb and the harmonies never seem quite right, (especially in the later years where Herb started playing the bottom notes and Tonni was playing the lead parts) which makes me think it possibly would of sounded better had Herb been the only trumpet player in the live band.
Granted, it would of been drastically different without the two trumpets, but I think it may have been a cool sound and would of given Herb more freedom to embellish the melodies.
Now, I know the point of the live TJB was to get the songs close to the record, but stylistically, I think this might of sounded hipper.
All in all, I think the point is no one in the world sounded like Herb, so anyone trying to match his sound would be nearly impossible.
TjbBmb
Well-Known Member
Where did you read the full unedited version?
I remember one Senatore interview, (possibly from his website) where he talks about smoking dope, chasing girls, and there being some kind of dispute over money and investments within in the band.
Is this the “dirt” you’re talking about?
Wendell shared it with me (and I suppose a few others here) that the dirtiest dirt not be revealed. That Senatore shared was enough! But yeah, those things you mention were there and in the published interview. The missing "dirt" was personality conflict stuff -- some of which has come out like in the CBS interview with the then surviving members.
--Mr Bill
--Mr Bill
TjbBmb
Well-Known Member
What’s the CBS interview?
JOv2
Well-Known Member
@TjbBmb: This one is fairly candid:
Gary James' Interview With Pat Senatore of The Tijuana Brass
remembering 1950s, 1960s, 1970s rock and roll
www.classicbands.com
In 1969 Herb and the TJB were still extensively touring in the USA and Europe, and that may help explain why so many studio musicians were used in the 1969 "Warm" LP recording sessions. Of course, Herb was overall still in charge of the "Warm" sessions, as he was the authoritative arranger and producer of the album.
Thanks for posting the Pat Senatore interview. His recollections of the groups heyday in the 1960s is as detailed and informative as one would ever ask for.
JOv2
Well-Known Member
You're welcome. It's a good one for sure. My favourite part is the "non-entity" line -- which cracks me up every time!
