📜 Feature What is your take on alternate takes?

Since the dawning of the CD era, alternate takes have been regularly added to album reissues and box sets.

I've always had a mixed opinion of them.

I can think of one box set where I like the alternate takes which, in this context, are not really alternate takes. Jazz pianist Bill Evans has a box set called The Complete Village Vanguard Recordings, 1961. Two of his best-known and most popular albums, Sunday at the Village Vanguard and Waltz for Debby, were pulled from these live recordings. This box set assembles all of the recordings made at the Village Vanguard on June 25, 1961, in the order in which they were recorded. It also includes audience banter, some on-stage discussion, and the first take of "Gloria's Step" that was briefly interrupted by a technical error.

On some CD reissues of both of the aforementioned albums, the alternate takes appear. This is where my opinion is mixed. I often like hearing the original albums in their originally-released sequence, with no bonus tracks. Fortunately in many cases, the bonus tracks are pasted onto the end of the album (where they can be easily skipped), yet on some others, the alternate takes appear mixed in with the original album tracks. This actually happens on another Bill Evans CD reissue: Portrait in Jazz, where alternate takes are inserted directly after their original album versions.

Another Bill Evans CD, Trio '64, was reissued with eight additional tracks, with two additional takes of four different tracks. So for those four tracks, you are hearing these three times on the same CD. It gets tedious to hear them over and over, regardless of how different the takes are. And when queueing up albums to listen to, I either have to manually remove them from a playlist, or skip ahead of all of these tracks.

I only use Bill Evans' CDs as an example since there are examples of most of the types of alternate take insertions on the disc. I can think of countless others.

There are popular music CDs were the hit single versions are tacked onto the end. There are others with a hit single version, a live version, a 12-inch remix version and others are all added. Again, it's tedious when sitting through an entire album.

Some releases get it right when they put all of the bonus content on an added disc.

Prince's reissue of the landmark 1999 album did it correctly. It was a 2-LP set that fit on one CD, so that is understandable. Yet there was so much bonus content with that album that I'm surprised they could fit it all onto a single CD. There were 45 RPM single versions, and the 12-inch single remixes, including different remixes of "Little Red Corvette." Most importantly, the non-album B-sides, which often got as much airplay as the hit singles, are all included as well.

Led Zeppelin's 2014/2015 CD reissues got it right also. While the content sometimes could have fit on a single CD, they wisely split the content across two discs--the first CD was the original album as released, and the second CD contained all of the bonus content. For the two-CD Physical Graffiti, the bonus content still fits on the third CD in the set. Coda is a different story, as it includes two companion discs, the first of which contains tracks that have become popular thanks to inclusions in other Zep box sets (like "Traveling Riverside Blues," "Hey, Hey, What Can I Do," "Baby Come On Home," etc.).
As a collector of music (not releases), there are times when I do want to hear the additional tracks, especially if they are unreleased tracks or B-sides. But alternate takes are something I have a limited use for.

If it's an event, like the Bill Evans Village Vanguard box, it makes sense since the set documents the series of gigs that make up the album.

Otherwise, having the alternate takes, or any bonus tracks for that matter, tacked onto a CD are often distracting, and the alternate takes get tedious the more times the same song is repeated.

Best are those who tack them onto the end, so I can stop playback early. Even better are those where the tracks are split out to a second CD. Worst are those who inject the alternate takes into the original album's running order.

What is your take on alternate takes, and bonus tracks in general?

 

[Harry]

Bonus tracks: generally I dislike them. Example, Frank Sinatra's WATERTOWN. The album tells a story from the perspective of the singer, and the original album was released with just the 10 main tracks. In the CD age, a song written by the same composers that Frank loved was recorded, "Lady Day", was tacked on as a bonus track. IMHO, it doesn't fit even though some fans have tried to justify it. Whenever I listen or compile it onto a device, I always leave that track off.

Alternate takes: They're alright, sometimes great. I really liked Herb's LOST TREASURES, and will play it nearly as often as any other album. Some of the songs are truly alternate mixes of some songs that had already been released, and some were lost songs that had never been heard before.

Beatles: there are a whole series of albums with alternate takes. ANTHOLOGY I, II, and III are full of them, and the recent remix albums all have alternate takes of the songs.

I do prefer when these songs are shunted onto their own discs, so I don't have to consciously skip or delete them.

 

[jfiedler17]

Generally speaking, I'm not a big fan of releasing alternate takes. They can occasionally be fascinating if the arrangements are dramatically different from the final released product, but too often we end up with very minor variations (especially in the case of deceased artists whose archives have been raided endlessly by their former labels, i.e. Elvis or Hendrix) that it takes a true diehard to distinguish. I did quite enjoy the alternate takes included on the Beatles Anthology sets (especially the ones that included humorous false starts or studio chatter), but I can't say as I go back and listen to them all that often. Alternate takes in general typically don't warrant repeated listens after the first few days of absorbing any disc.

Bonus cuts, on the other hand, I love, assuming it's stuff that could have theoretically been compiled into another studio album, like finished recordings that were ultimately either used as B-sides or shelved altogether. (Remixes, on the other hand, rarely fascinate me, and too often can ruin the original song, especially if some modern-day star has been drafted in to either produce or guest-star on it, i.e. the remixes included on the Michael Jackson Bad 25 anniversary reissue.) Some artists are fairly good at picking out the very best stuff to go onto the final tracklists of their albums, but there are others who have a bad habit of throwing out genuinely great songs. Springsteen comes to mind as one (I actually think I like The Promise better than I do Darkness on the Edge of Town, and there are similarly a lot of songs on the Ties That Bind boxed set that really should have gone on the original version of The River). I like most of the previously-unreleased songs included on the aforementioned Bad 25 reissue more than I do the songs that ended up making the final cut back in '87 (although the dated-sounding production of the original album - particularly the drum sound, which sounds anything BUT organic - has kept me from being able to warm up to most of the songs on there; it's just not nearly as warm-sounding a disc as Thriller was, even if the songwriting was still fairly strong). Paul McCartney's expanded reissue of Red Rose Speedway from a few years back was a huge improvement on the original record. (How some of those outtakes failed to make the final cut but something like "Loup" or the album-closing medley of unfinished songs did is beyond me. But then again, Paul also stuck "Daytime Nighttime Suffering" on the flip of "Goodnight Tonight" instead of using it on Back to the Egg and shelved the London Town-era delight "Waterspout" altogether, so ... it's kind of a pattern.]
And Prince's B-sides could be absolutely amazing - especially the likes of "How Come U Don't Call Me Anymore" or "17 Days," which I like every bit as much as anything from the albums they were left off of (1999 and Purple Rain, respectively) - so I am all for Warner Bros. using those as bonus cuts on reissues of the studio albums, assuming they leave some kind of gap in between so the album doesn't immediately segue into the bonus cuts.

 

[AM Matt]

Wilco 1996 "Being There" is a great box set!!

 

[Rudy]

Alternate takes: They're alright, sometimes great. I really liked Herb's LOST TREASURES, and will play it nearly as often as any other album.

I did quite enjoy the alternate takes included on the Beatles Anthology sets (especially the ones that included humorous false starts or studio chatter), but I can't say as I go back and listen to them all that often.

I probably should have been clearer--alternate tracks on a CD with the original album are what bother me. If it's a release that is dedicated to alternate tracks, then it's almost a non-issue since those are a conscious decision to purchase and listen to them. And yes, I agree--they aren't something I would listen to often.

And Prince's B-sides could be absolutely amazing - especially the likes of "How Come U Don't Call Me Anymore" or "17 Days," which I like every bit as much as anything from the albums they were left off of (1999 and Purple Rain, respectively) - so I am all for Warner Bros. using those as bonus cuts on reissues of the studio albums, assuming they leave some kind of gap in between so the album doesn't immediately segue into the bonus cuts.

I actually bought the 3-CD Prince anthology The Hits/The B-Sides simply to own the third CD of B-sides. I already have them on vinyl (most on 12-inch singles, the rest on 45s), but it was good to have them all in one place. The CD does use shorter 45 RPM single versions when possible, likely for time constraints. Prince was really big in our market (he put on six performances here on the 1999 tour, and also sent out The Time and Vanity 6 a few months prior as a "teaser" tour, billed as Yyad Ssirrom & The Mystery Band), and we had a local radio station that played the B-sides of the 12-inch singles as much as the hits. In fact, it was always a rush to the stores to buy the 12-inch singles when we'd hear a new B-side on the radio.

U2's The Joshua Tree is notorious for having a lot of non-album tracks as well. In fact, it was rumored that the album was intended to be a double album, but it was trimmed back to a single album. There was a list, a while ago, where someone had created a "Joshua Tree Restored" track listing where all the non-album tracks were intermixed with the existing album tracks, based on various band interviews over the years that informed how the tracks would have fallen into the sequence.

I compiled that myself and it makes for an excellent playlist. The tracks "Silver and Gold," "Spanish Eyes," "Sweetest Thing" (which I believe was a non-album single from the same sessions), and "Race Against Time" are all excellent songs. And all of these were relegated to B-sides or EPs.

Whenever I listen or compile it onto a device, I always leave that track off.

I do that as well--I split them into their own folder to keep the original album intact. I also have the option in Roon Player to hide tracks I don't want to appear, and I've made use of that as well. I've even done that in the past when burning CD-Rs for the car--I'd leave off extra tracks I didn't want, as well as album tracks I didn't care for and would skip over anyway. That way I could fit more onto a CD-R.

 

[tomswift2002]

The Beach Boys 2–for-1 CD’s, specifically the ones from their 60’s Capitol era are also good for their alternate takes, since some of the tracks are even alternate takes of album tracks. And they kind of show how much the early mixes were different from the final album mix or single mix.

Of course one Beach Boys track that we had an alternate take on a different album was Help Me Ronda/Help Me Rhonda on The Beach Boys Today! (Ronda Version) and The Beach Boys Summer Days (And Summer Nights!). (Rhonda version, which as a single knocked the Beatles Ticket To Ride out of the #1 spot.)

Another Beach Boys CD that contained a fun alternate take of a classic Beach Boys song was Beach Boys Ultimate Christmas. The first 12 tracks were the original stereo mixes of the Beach Boys Christmas Album, but after that you had the 1963 single mix of Little Saint Nick and then 2 tracks later, another take that featured the group singing the lyrics to LSN over the backing track to Drive-In, a track from All Summer Long.

Ultimate Christmas also features Auld Land Syne with Dennis’s closing narration removed, plus Christmas versions of a couple of tracks from their 1978 MIU Album.

 

[AM Matt]

Got The Beach Boys "Ultimate Christmas" when it came out on CD in 1998. Also have Brian Wilson CD "What I Really Want For Christmas" from 2005!!

 

[JOv2]

Alternate takes from pop groups are rarely significant to me. Unless there's a different arrangement at hand (e.g., The Beatles' Tomorrow Never Knows in its first incarnation was notably different), these things have no lasting interest. Jazz alternates, on the other hand, are fascinating -- for the obvious reason...and lucky for us, Michael Cuscuna loaded up all those Blue Note CDs circa 1985-2007 with plenty of alternates.

 

[Bobberman]

To me it depends on the artist and the albums and various other factors if it's a favorite artist and song I like a lot I am usually interested in the alternate take Naturally I don't just go for everything as I'm very selective Your mileage may vary of course

 

[Harry]

It does indeed depend on which artist. I think of a really favorite artist like Herb Alpert or Sergio Mendes. Hearing Herb's alternate take or mix on "Plucky" or "Darlin'" is fascinating to me, "(Like A Lover" for Sergio). And even just the difference between mono singles and album versions is a hobby in itself.

If it were someone like B.J. Thomas, in whom I have a passing interest in mostly his hit singles, I wouldn't be as interested in any alternate takes or mixes.

 

[Bobberman]

It does indeed depend on which artist. I think of a really favorite artist like Herb Alpert or Sergio Mendes. Hearing Herb's alternate take or mix on "Plucky" or "Darlin'" is fascinating to me, "(Like A Lover" for Sergio). And even just the difference between mono singles and album versions is a hobby in itself.

If it were someone like B.J. Thomas, in whom I have a passing interest in mostly his hit singles, I wouldn't be as interested in any alternate takes or mixes.

My feelings exactly

 

[Rudy]

I'm referring to bonus tracks on CDs and the (over)abundance of alternate versions.

 

[Rudy]

Jazz alternates, on the other hand, are fascinating -- for the obvious reason...

There are times I've listened to the bonus tracks and came to the conclusion that either the artist or producer came to the right conclusion to use the take that shows up on the original album. Like one of the digital versions of Miles Davis Kind of Blue, where "Flamenco Sketches" has an alternate take tagged onto the end of the disc. The alternate is not as subdued (especially when Miles leads off the tune). It's otherwise a nice take, but not as good as what ended up on the album.

As long as the extras are tacked onto the end of the album, I can skip over them easily, or listen to them only when I really want to.

That reminds me that one of the versions of Bitches Brew I have includes an extra track, "Feio," that fits in well with the rest. And, some of the Miles "sessions" box sets are fascinating to listen to, largely because they are free of Teo Macero's cut-and-paste approach to assembling a Miles album.

(That also reminds me of the laughable argument I've heard about the Bill Laswell Panthalassa set. The songs there were remixed, using only original mix elements from the tapes, and resequenced, and a few have complained about that. Yet Teo Macero was cutting-and-pasting all of those Miles albums from that era and honestly, some of the tape edits are really sloppy. If I'm not mistaken, Macero also produced Brubeck's albums, and there are some sloppy edits there also.)

 

[Harry]

I'm referring to bonus tracks on CDs and the (over)abundance of alternate versions.

Yeah, sorry about the detour to "other mixes". When it comes to bonus tracks on CDs, I prefer them to either be shunted to the end, perhaps with a gap space, or separated out onto a second disc. Mostly I don't consider them part of an album, and prefer to listen to an album the way it was intended. It's a little different with a compilation, though, I still prefer them to be at the end.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I bought a couple of the Fleetwood Mac special editions with the extra tracks. Most probably know the story of how the Stevie Nicks song “Silver Springs” got replaced at the last-minute by “I Don’t Want to Know” due to time constraints. (“Silver” is about four minutes longer.)

The special editions invariably include “SS,” but you never know where it’ll turn up. Sometimes at the end; sometimes in between side 1 and side 2; sometimes it’ll be tucked in right after
“I Don’t Want to Know.” No matter where they put it, it doesn’t fit.

The other irritating thing is, usually the song appears in a newer mix that contains more guitar and backing vocals. The original mix (IMHO) is best.

It’s a great song, one of the best b-sides ever so I’m glad it’s been given attention over the years.

 

[JOv2]

Teo Macero's cut-and-paste approach

I like what he did with In A Silent Way ('69) -- essentially making a "tune" out of Miles' archetypal "noodles and feels...". The LP is a memorable melodically restless journey and the associated box set captures the era: Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, and Joe Zawinul are present and it's quite a ride. I agree, however, in that numerous Teo '60s edits were not smooth.

 

[jfiedler17]

I bought a couple of the Fleetwood Mac special editions with the extra tracks. Most probably know the story of how the Stevie Nicks song “Silver Springs” got replaced at the last-minute by “I Don’t Want to Know” due to time constraints. (“Silver” is about four minutes longer.)

The special editions invariably include “SS,” but you never know where it’ll turn up. Sometimes at the end; sometimes in between side 1 and side 2; sometimes it’ll be tucked in right after
“I Don’t Want to Know.” No matter where they put it, it doesn’t fit.

The other irritating thing is, usually the song appears in a newer mix that contains more guitar and backing vocals. The original mix (IMHO) is best.

It’s a great song, one of the best b-sides ever so I’m glad it’s been given attention over the years.

I've never understood how they could have relegated that one to a B-side. I understand the inclusion of "I Don't Want to Know" (it's infectious, and the second side might have otherwise ended with three slow songs in a row), but "Silver Springs" still should have been on the album, IMO. As far as Stevie's songs go, I personally prefer that one over "Gold Dust Woman."

I thought of another CD reissue where one of the bonus cuts is my favorite thing on the record: the early version (with Mick Ronson on guitar) of "Madman Across the Water" that's included on most CD reissues of Elton John's Tumbleweed Connection. No matter how many times I go back and listen to it, it still blows me away every time. I personally find that version to be wildly superior to the finished recording that served as the title cut of the Madman album.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Another Fleetwood alternate take is “Straight Back.” It’s a Stevie nicks tune from the Mirage album. On the original CD of the album, that song had been tinkered with the same way as “Silver Springs” had — more layers of backing vocals, more guitars, more echo… the changes just have it a very “fussed over” vibe that I didn’t like.

Then there was “I Know I’m Not Wrong,” a Libdsey Buckingham song from Tusk that got basically the same treatment on CD versions of that album.

Once again, it was the deluxe editions to the rescue. The original version of “Straight Bavk” was tucked in with the demos and outtakes on the second disc of that reissue — why it wasn’t restored to its rightful place on the album is a mystery.

And the original “I Know I’m Not wrong” turned up on disk 2 of a 3-disk reissue of Tusk from a few years ago

 

[Harry]

Back when I was still at the radio station, one of our PDs mentioned that many of the Fleetwood Mac 45s had alternate mixes from the regular album versions. I surprised everyone, including Andre, by bringing in a bunch that I'd had i my collection. They are indeed different. Unfortunately, my copy of "Silver Spring" has a scratchy "swish" during the very quiet opening.

 

[jfiedler17]

Back when I was still at the radio station, one of our PDs mentioned that many of the Fleetwood Mac 45s had alternate mixes from the regular album versions. I surprised everyone, including Andre, by bringing in a bunch that I'd had i my collection. They are indeed different.

I notice it most on the 45s of the singles from the self-titled first outing with Lindsey and Stevie on board. The single mixes are definitely punchier than the recordings on the album, with "Say You Love Me" having a distinctly more vibrant and crystalline intro that's great fun to listen to through headphones.

 

[Rudy]

Fleetwood Mac...how about those digital versions of Rumours where the last dozen or so seconds of "Second Hand News" are edited to repeat?

That's an aspect of alternate versions I largely had forgotten about--reissues where the songs are remixed or edited (or even re-recorded) as part of the original album. I've never liked it. After hearing an album for years, decades even, having something altered is completely wrong in my opinion. In some obvious cases (like "Second Hand News") it stands out, but in others, I could listen to a track several times and it feels as though something is off, but I can't put my finger on it. In a few cases it's a George Lucas situation--let's tamper with the originals each time they are reissued because it's "better" and/or "fits my original vision."

And I'm betting many listeners who aren't music buffs like we are, never hear these differences. If pointed out, sure. But casual listeners either aren't paying close attention, or maybe the song sounds a little different without really knowing why that is.

BTW, the 5.1 surround DVD-Audio version of Rumours has a few changes in the mix. It was kept to the surround version and not the stereo version on the disc. But, I don't know if this version appeared in later versions of Rumours or on an anthology in later years.




I didn't do any changes from the default preset for the downmix, so Lindsey's voice is a little higher in the mix than it should be, and the rear channels probably could have used a little higher level. Still, you can hear the added parts.

Surround discs (DVD-Audio or SACD) often had a few surprises in the surround version of the album.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Bonus tracks are usually like deleted scenes on a DVD—-within a few seconds, I can usually figure out why they were left out of the original.

 

[AM Matt]

Got the Fleetwood Mac "Rumours" on DVD Audio!! I don't have the CD box set though.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Wow those changes on "Never Goin' Back" just wreck it in my opinion. The vocals sound too loud and the added guitar bits just obscure the very lovely original bits. Bad, bad Lindsey! Quit messing with perfection!

I don't think I've ever heard a remixed version (on an album) that improved on the original, outside of just making it sound better. But when they tack on additional parts it just sounds weird when you listen.

On Carpenters' "Yesterday Once More," I've finally gotten to the point over the years when the original album version now sounds like it has "something missing" to me due to those extra guitar parts not being there. But I think that's the only song I can say that of in my whole music collection.

 

[Rudy]

The vocals sound too loud

That's only due to the downmix.

I went back just now and looked at the default channel converter settings. It had Source 3 (the third track, aka center) mixing in at -3dB to left and right. That doesn't seem right, so I tried it again at -6dB to left and right, and it sounds like it should. (It's similar to how summing a stereo signal to mono will boost the center information by 6dB.)

What else do you hear in this mix aside from an extra guitar? It's faint, and in the same places as the extra guitar, but it's there (and IMHO, it's more clutter).

This is only on the surround mix, so it was probably offered as an "easter egg" to listeners. Yet I don't know why they singled out one track for this. It also has some slight added reverb, most likely as a subtle enhancement to the surround mix.

BTW, they moved "Songbird" to the end of the album, and put "Silver Spring" in its place.