When DID Richard realize Karen was a force to reckon with?

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shellyfaberes

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Sure, after the 45 CLOSE TO YOU did her voice and popularity become apparent.....but with TICKET TO RIDE the LP and even the CLOSE to YOU LP - there are TOO many songs sung by Richard. Now mind you, Richard IS an EXCEPTIONAL arranging talent and his voice is very much in PITCH... but the first two B-sides feature Richard singing...If Herb Alpert and Richard were "gung-ho" on Karen's voice, why did they allow Richard to have his vocals on these B-sides - if they were pushing or believing in Karen!

I am just asking if anybody knows "WHEN" it hit Richard at one point early in their career that KAREN was the more focal talent ......was it from him or Herbie or someone at A&M Records that said "wait a minute...."......With Richard always focused on HIS music as a child - he must have surely thought he was gonna be the star....


(PS John Bettis' first B-side credit was "Rainy Days and Monday" with SATURDAY!!!!!!! - money money money to Richard before that.....DISCUSS)

(PPS - I don't belive the "We've Only Just Begun" story about Richard seeing the commercial late at night.....the "Close To You" B-side was written by Paul Willaims and Roger Nichols and SUNG by Richard (I Kept On Loving You)...didn't Richard hear "We've Only Just Begun" with some of Paul Williams demos?????.....When did Richard discover Paul Williams???)

All I know is that Karen WAS a beautiful and lovely young lady and NO ONE should have to go thru corporate Hollywood crap and other "Company Family" people needling her down to give their life for about 2hours and 36 minutes of recorded music to be sold into reissues.

I say 2 hours and 36 minutes because anything The Carpenters recorded after "Hurting Each Other" or "Goodbye To Love" was useless and corporate easy listening...Her edge and singing spirit is GONE on the insipid "SING" and was NEVER to return!!!! Her longing and HARD vocals on "Rainy Days and Mondays" were NEVER to be matched again in something so cumbersome as "Solitaire"or "Goodbye and I Love You". In "Hurting Each Other" she sang that chorus so damned HARD and COMPELLING !!! It was never to be heard again....No- she was dealt fluff like "There's a Kind of Hush" and "Happy".............Karen ALWAYS maintained a beautiful voice BUT in their recordings from 1975 on, there was no SOUL!!!

So why didn't Richard know when the zenith was and why did he continue to lock himself and Karen into MOR....and why doesn't he go score a film or write a braodway musical - instead of teasing us with these reissues and release some damn "NEW and UNREALEASED" important moments from Karen???? It would have been her wish.....DISCUSSS....... I long for the Karen of 1971 in my own life...Shelley in West Covina :)
 
In the early days, pre-A&M, it's told that Richard was always looked on as the guiding force of the duo. Karen wanted to be the drummer and basically looked on singing as a chore in the early going. If the story is true, it was Joe Osborn who 'discovered' Karen's voice and signed her to his Magic Lamp label. Her solo 'career' went nowhere, and she and Richard kept plugging away.

When signed to A&M as a duo, both Karen & Richard tried singing lead on their recorded material. If you listen to the OFFERING/TICKET TO RIDE album, it's almost an every-other-track situation. First Richard, then Karen trading off lead vocal duties, with the other providing backing vocals. Personally, I loved this album and still do, and quite enjoy the songs that Richard sings lead on.

It's been told that Richard and Karen had met Roger Nichols and Paul Williams while recording their first album at A&M. Nichols had done his own A&M album, ROGER NICHOLS & THE SMALL CIRCLE OF FRIENDS, which had to be a heavy influence on Richard as he worked on that first album. If you've not heard the Nichols album, I recommend it highly. It's available as a Japanese import and worth every penny. The story about "We've Only Just Begun" being heard by Richard on a bank commercial seems plausible. Do we think that Richard looked through every song in everyone's portfolio at A&M when compiling the second album? The first album was largely Carpenter/Bettis compositions while the second focused on more cover material. I wonder why we're discovering people who seem to have a hard time believing the Crocker Bank commercial story? Is it THAT unbelievable?

shellyfaberes said:
(PS John Bettis' first B-side credit was "Rainy Days and Monday" with SATURDAY!!!!!!! - money money money to Richard before that.....DISCUSS)

Wrong! The very first A&M Carpenters single, "Ticket To Ride" had a b-side of "Your Wonderful Parade", composed by Carpenter/Bettis. Interesting mono mix on that single, too, as I've recently discovered.

As for your descriptions of Karen's voice being somehow silenced or buried in mediocre material after a certain point, well to some extent I would tend to agree, but feel your choice of words may be a bit harsh at times -- I'll take it as passion, though -- it's obvious as to how you feel. I don't believe there was any conscious effort to stifle her voice or to purposefully record mediocre material. After "Hurting Each Other", I would submit "Yesterday Once More" and "Only Yesterday" as a fine examples of both Richard and Karen's abilities. I've always viewed HORIZON as the turning point in the Carpenters' repertoire where things got more bland. Though the album contained the uptempo hits of "Please Mr. Postman" and "Only Yesterday" and the sumptuous '40s-style recording of "I Can Dream, Can't I", the rest of the short album got bogged down with two very slow songs, "Desperado" and "Solitaire", and was bookended with the moody "Aurora/Eventide". Don't get me wrong, I like all of these, but always felt that they somehow made the album's overall pace to slow. The balance of the "Side Two" songs tended to the bland side for me. No strong finish for the album, like the prior albums al had.

It's all well and good to be an armchair quarterback and judge what's been released and why, but when you're a recording artist and are starting out with a piece of blank tape, it's a different story. Knowing what the public will like, or how a song will turn out is not easy or even possible, unless you're talking about today's cookie-cutter 'songs' with cookie-cutter 'artists'.

There've been conjectures (there's THAT word again) that Karen's voice somehow changed as she degraded further into her anorxic condition. I've never been one who agreed on that point, but feel that the choice of material was the answer as to why the later songs sounded so bland at times. That, and that Karen herself was attempting to learn how to better present her material with lessons from professionals on singing techniques. Her later sound was more 'perfect' though sterile, I would agree.

And let's not leave Karen out of the equation here. She apparently had much say in what was recorded and what wasn't, perhaps just as much say as Richard. It's easy to view Karen as the defenseless one, since she's no longer with us, but I'm pretty certain that she was as much a force to be reckoned with in the choice of material as Richard was.

As for when Richard discovered that his sister was the 'voice'? It had to have been when he heard the first DJ say, "That was Karen Carpenter with 'Close To You'". Richard's work as lead vocalist diminished greatly with each succeeding release, while Karen came out from behind the drums to be the focal point.

Harry
NP: HORIZON, Carpenters
 
There was a lot said here. as for The Carpenters losing their soul or edge I agree and disagree. They never really lost their soul - that was their until the very end. What I think is that by 1976 they were trying to find their new sound. If Karen were to live I think they would have hit right on the spot with a new sound around 1985.
"Horizon" is one of my favorite albums by The Carpenters. The musical arrangements are excellent. Songs like "Solitaire" and "Desperado" are not songs that are too slow, but they are deep insightful songs. I view Karen's vocal performance on both songs to be of her very best.
For a while I may have felt "A Kind Of Hush" was just an average album. Maybe it's not The Carpenters' best - but it certainly does have some great moments. I think "Goofus" (when listened to with an open mind and maybe from the direction K&R were viewing the song) is a very creative off-beat tune. I've always like the off-beat side of The Carpenters.
Yes the music in the later period wasn't as gutsy as "Superstar", but it still had all the spectacular elements of what made The Carpenters great.

One more point here. I hear so many people putting down "Sing". I don't get it. I think "Sing" is one of this world's most important and powerful songs of all-time. It's a has a simple but universal message about love and self confidence. And Karen's voice was joyful and upbeat, she excelled with this wonderful little tune.
 
Rick, I think you're right on target with Karen's version of "Sing". It IS an upbeat song that, frankly, never fails to lift me out of a blue funk!

And, Harry, what you replied, was VERY well said!! Here, here!!

Marilyn
online and will definitely sport a blue funk if she doesn't see the sun SOON!!
 
Rick said:
"Horizon" is one of my favorite albums by The Carpenters. The musical arrangements are excellent. Songs like "Solitaire" and "Desperado" are not songs that are too slow, but they are deep insightful songs. I view Karen's vocal performance on both songs to be of her very best.

As I said, I like the slower songs just fine. But to a then-young adult (me), eager to hear what his favorite group, Carpenters had come up with , I found the HORIZON album's pace a bit too slow. I don't know if re-arranging the tracks would've helped, but I always thought that ONE of the slow tracks should've perhaps been saved for a later album, and replaced with a more uptempo, hit-style song. I also might've saved an "Only Yesterday" for the second side of the album to balance things out. Again, it's easy to armchair-quarterback with 20/20 hindsight.

Rick said:
One more point here. I hear so many people putting down "Sing". I don't get it. I think "Sing" is one of this world's most important and powerful songs of all-time. It's a has a simple but universal message about love and self confidence. And Karen's voice was joyful and upbeat, she excelled with this wonderful little tune.

I enjoy "Sing" as much as the next person, but as it's more a simple children's tune, it tends to get overlooked as not being serious, and it's always included in virtually every compilation. making omni-present like the purple dinosaur on TV. For a change of pace, I like to mix in the Spanish version, "Canta", or the live Japanese version. It breaks up the repetitiveness of the lyrics.

thestitch said:
And, Harry, what you replied, was VERY well said!! Here, here!!

Aww, shucks ma-am. 'Tweren't nothin', really. :wink: :oops:

Harry
...finishing up at work, online...
 
I've always thought "Desperado" had alot of passion. Certainly, the songs on "Passage" did- esp. Argentina.
"Made in America" was on par vocally with "Hush" but "Strength of a Woman" was certainly a powerful entry, IMHO.
Mark
 
Harry said:
The story about "We've Only Just Begun" being heard by Richard on a bank commercial seems plausible. Do we think that Richard looked through every song in everyone's portfolio at A&M when compiling the second album? The first album was largely Carpenter/Bettis compositions while the second focused on more cover material. I wonder why we're discovering people who seem to have a hard time believing the Crocker Bank commercial story? Is it THAT unbelievable?

When you have a respected biographical author like Ray Coleman himself putting it into print, and Paul Williams in a video interview relaying the same (with anecdotes from Richard), it's far from unbelievable.

Rick said:
I think "Goofus" (when listened to with an open mind and maybe from the direction K&R were viewing the song) is a very creative off-beat tune. I've always like the off-beat side of The Carpenters.

Leave it to Richard's ear to find a little-known tune to cover on a Carpenters album. (Remember the Carpenter childrens' voracious appetite for hit singles.) This song was around for awhile before they covered it...I've heard better versions, but it was in good fun. Would be interesting to find out which version they had first listened to.
 
I've said before and I'll say it again! There IS no most important element. I'm not a Carpenters fan (it just isn't for me) but I've seen documentaries about them and the census seems to be, "Karen Carpenter was the most important person in the band. She WAS the Carpenters". It's as if Richard Carpenter does not even exist. People make it out to be a solo effort or something that could have turned into one. Yet, funny how when a Karen Carpenter solo album was in the works, nobody at A&M (even Richard) liked what they heard and the project was shelved, never to see the light of day until 1996. What does that say? The duo could not do well without each other. Yet, to this day, whenever I hear about the Carpenters, the discussion seems to be about Karen Carpenter and about her being the group's "true talent".
Again, if we wish to play, "the most talented person" game, hands down, I'd say that's Richard Carpenter. First of all, he co-wrote all the songs with John Bettis, he did all the arrangements, he produced every song, sang, and played piano. Not only that, but these talents came out before his sister could even pick up a drumstick! Yet, these facts seem to be ignored, and he is today one of the most underrated musicians ever (even Karen attested to that.) So please, don't tell me that Karen Carpenter was the most important person in that group. She didn't even make it without her brother and sadly, it seems, vice versa.
 
alpertfan said:
Again, if we wish to play, "the most talented person" game, hands down, I'd say that's Richard Carpenter. First of all, he co-wrote all the songs with John Bettis, he did all the arrangements, he produced every song, sang, and played piano. Not only that, but these talents came out before his sister could even pick up a drumstick! Yet, these facts seem to be ignored, and he is today one of the most underrated musicians ever (even Karen attested to that.) So please, don't tell me that Karen Carpenter was the most important person in that group. She didn't even make it without her brother and sadly, it seems, vice versa.

Well phrased alpertfan.
Richard was really the brains and the driving force behind The Carpenters. What made Karen standout (besides her fabulous voice and creative drum work) was her girl next door charisma which was ever so attractive.
 
Alpertfan said,

"So please, don't tell me that Karen Carpenter was the most important person in that group. She didn't even make it without her brother and sadly, it seems, vice versa"


I do not agree with that statement.

Yes of course Richard was a valuable player noone can dispute that. However your only assuming that she couldn't make it without her brother, that is your own personal opinion. I tend to believe that her solo album would have been just the begining.

Karen received TOO much negativity when she finished her solo album, she got nothing but a bad response from all those around her, she was never even given a chance. Negative vibes like that are not good for anyone, thank God she had people she could talk to about it, like Olivia Newton John & Phil Ramone.

Who knows what the future would have been for Karen had she lived. She was so fond of those solo sessions she talked about it to Phil the night before she died.

My opinion is that had she lived, she could have easily recorded more solo sessions, perfected it & possibly found a solo career. It doesn't mean she would have been deserting Richard. If you listen to most the the Carpenters albums toward the end of the legacy, it's mostly Karen singing.

Yes Richard played a huge part but take away Karen's voice & the magic is gone.
 
It's funny, 'cause lately I've been thinking so hard about the difference in Karen's voice after 1975, it just can't get out of my head, and someone started this topic.

I totally agree her voice kinda lost something after that. I'm sure someone can ask this to Richard he has to talk about. It's unbelievible how people can overlook this.

Please listen to Can't Buy Me Love or Another Song. Then go to 73's version of Ticket To Ride and Only Yesterday. Man, just listen 75's WORK LEAD of Trying To Get The Feeling Again, is outstanding!!!

For example I love Two Lives, amazing song, and despite it was a work lead, it's flawless, but other day I was thinking: "Wish she sing it just a little lower, how she used to." Richard blames Phill Ramone for her solo album the key was too high for her, but all the MADE IN AMERICA album seems too.

About the most talented, I surely think Richard is EXTREMALY talented, but he's an AMAZING MUSICAN among anothers. I mean there's so many people doing good jobs as he. But Karen, she had THE VOICE, it one in a million, no one can compare, it's just unique. By the 70's there was A LOT OF good producers and musicians, BUT ONLY ONE KAREN CARPENTER.

:D
 
Only Yesterday said:
By the 70's there was A LOT OF good producers and musicians, BUT ONLY ONE KAREN CARPENTER.

:D

This is so very true. Richard was a great arranger, conductor, musician, songwriter etc. - but Karen was truly a one of a kind. I also believe Karen could have had a successful solo career.
 
I have to disagree with some of Shelley's comments.Some of Karen's best work was produced in the late-70's.Particularly,Karen's sessions with arranger Peter Knight in 1978 produced some of her most exquisite masterpieces:"Little Altar Boy","Look To Your Dreams","Where Do I Go From Here","Little Girl Blue","Ave Maria",etc.I believe Karen's vocal prowess was at its zenith during those sessions.As far as HORIZON is concerned,well,its a very dull album,but it still ranks as their best album-their most listenable,cohesive album(next to the Christmas albums).HORIZON places more emphasis on Karen as a VOCALIST(where it should be)-rather than Karen and Richard's commercial top-40 trifles.I do agree that the early albums contain some of Karen's best work,but there are plenty of flaws on the early albums,also.
 
I have to agree with Mr. J. The mid to late 70's brought some gems.

Ready for a statement that will make some gasp?!?

I actually like the post "Singles" albums better than the earlier releases! And those are the ones I listen to the most.
Were the classics great? Absolutely. But I think Karen and Richard got trapped into a mold that had to break. (Just a thought- I wonder if that played into Karen's illness at all?)

"Horizon" may seem lifeless in some areas, but I'll take "Desperado", or any other song of the album, over "Druscilla Penny" any day ( - which was an embarrassment on the otherwise wonderful tan album.)

To me, this album represents the "art" of music in all its presentation- from the bookends of "Aurora" and "Eventide" to each song between them, the wonderful photography and stylish layout of the album itself.

"Horizon" screamed style, class, and arrival- you just HAD to look at Karen as one of the generations finest, most versatile vocalists after listening to it! Richard could never again be seen as the geek stuck in the oldies or adult contemporary mold. THEY were a force to be reckoned with.

Karen's technical vocal abilities on "Solitaire" amaze me to this day. She hits both the highs and long extended lows so perfectly while still throwing her heart into the song. The ending portion is as powerful today as it was in 1975. "Love Me for What I Am" is this album's "Goodbye to Love" with much more mature lyrics. And the GUTS they had to not only include a song done by Linda Ronstadt and the Eagles, but to be able to exceed theirs in execution. The arrangements and production were exquisite, too. (Sidenote- I always felt "Ordinary Fool" belonged on this album instead of "Hush" even though I know the truth! Extra note/question: I know "Postman" was a number one hit, but did A&M "force" K&R to add it to the album? It is so out of place!)

Lastly, it seems that starting with "Horizon", Karen and Richard recorded a more diverse body of work compared to the earlier years, "Ticket" album aside.

"I Can Dream Can't I?"
""Goofus"
Most everything on "Passage"
"Ordinary Fool"
"When I Fall in Love"
"Look to Your Dreams"
"Rainbow Connection"
Not to mention the variety on Karen's solo album. (Just can't imagine no "Last One Singin' the Blues" or "Still Crazy"!)

Had their Top 40 hit machine continued, I am positive we never would have heard Karen and Ella! I think the break in popularity actually benefitted them as artists. And helped the legacy of Karen's voice and Richard's talent.

In closing, "Horizon" was a landmark album for Karen and Richard.
(Unfortunately, as much as I enjoy it, all the ground they gained they threw away with "Hush"!)

Your thoughts?
Mark
 
Mark said, "Karen's technical vocal abilities on "Solitaire" amaze me to this day"

I totally agree with you, in fact the mono single to this song is so amazing, it literally blew me out of my chair. I now look at this song in a whole light. It was always a kinda low sounding song, I always was stretching my ears to hear her vocals but the mono is bright & loud.

Mr J, I really agree with your post, thank you. The Christmas songs you mentioned are total proof that Karen had it going on in 1978 & I could never live without these tracks come December. Heck I even play them in July LOL
 
Well I only can say that HORIZON is my favorite album ever. It not only works just as great as in '75, but it's FLAWLESS. From the begining wake up "Aurora to the sunset of the "Eventide", it's a classic, it belongs to any best albums ever list. And the concept of the album itself rocks.

Today was watching CNN - Music Room and they did a report about the importance of the musical producer in the albums. A lot of people shows up from George Martin, to Miss Elliott to Phill Ramone(credited as Sinatra and Billy Joel's producer).

It confirms what i think they should never fired Jack Daugherty!!! Like Hal Blaine said: "it always like that, that artist get famous, get 7 or 8 hit singles and think that they don't need anyone else, and start to do their own music, IT ALWAYS THE BEGING OF THE END." I totally agree.

I think that with a third people to give an opinion they would never released "Hush" or "Passage" and MAINLY "MIA" the way they were. That is the producer was made for, to help, I mean when K&R were in concerts, doing interviews and something there are people also working to help them. I believe Karen didn't want to fired Jack, but Richard couldn't make music with other people saying him what to do.

If the Beatles had a producer, why could the Carpenters?
 
Only Yesterday - From what I've read in 'The Carpenters: The Untold Story', Jack Daugherty played a very minimal role in the production after 1970 - even though he still got credit as producer. Richard basically produced 'Offering' and 'Close To You' and every other album the Carpenters did. I think Daugherty served more as a co-producer in the beginning and his role became less and less as the years went by.

Hence - the acrimonious split and accusations by the Carpenters that Jack Daugherty didn't deserve credit.
 
I've read about that too. But what I saying it's everyone really needs someone to tell them when to stop it or go wilder, you know what I mean.

Proof of that is how amazing the Peter Knight's collaboration were. Where Do I Go, Christmas songs, Karen voice seems even stronger. Imagine a collaboration with Quency Jones, The Bee Gees, Barry Manilow or someone else outside, just to help them see things of another perspective.

Maybe they could fired Jack, but hired someone else. You need it when it's a 24 hours job.
 
Undisputably Richard realized his sister's talent AND true calling. However, I wonder if Karen ever really knew that "she was a force to be reckoned with"?

appreciating her gift,

Jeff
 
Briefly I Offer Only Initial Responses to Some Of Issues / Comments :

Otha -Being A Protest Singer Has Coloured Your Comments -Too Much
Protest..! ....Beliefs that Carpenters Ceased to be an Active, Musical ,
Soulful (Wider Musical Sense) Duo After 1972 Are Very Wide Of the
Mark and Few Carpenters Fans or Music Commentators Would Support
this Contention :shock:

Please Let Us Avoid This Pointless Issue of Whether Richard or Karen
Were More Important or More Talented Within Carpenters :oops:

Karen with Richard is Carpenters , Combination of their Talents and
Attitude Made the Music , UNIQUE Sound and Legacy :D

Karen WITHOUT Richard is Interesting , But Still Not CARPENTERS -
Same For Richard without Karen -Still Progress as Songwriter /
Producer , But Not CARPENTERS.......

From Some Points Made , One Understands Why Richard is Still
Defensive , Would Karen in a Role Reversal , Receive Such Criticism
and Comments ? :shock:

Will Comment Later on Different Carpenters Albums and Periods of
Music :)

Peter...Bemused , Bothered and ......
 
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