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goodjeans

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I don't get why I hear the perennial elton john, phil collins and billy joel ad nauseum and rarely hear Carpenters on the radio. Any insights???Have a great week all.
 
Simple answer - "high negatives."

Music for radio consumption is tested by the radio stations. It's done several times a year, using different methods, but basically garnering the same information about the songs. It's usually done by playing "hooks" - short segments of songs that represent the best parts of those recordings.

The audience being tested is asked to rate the songs being played. Sometimes it's done electronically with voting gadgets for "like", "dislike", and "neutral." Other times with paper ballots that basically register the same info.

Bottom line is that anytime Carpenters music is tested, it almost universally drives up the "dislike" votes. Plain and simple - a lot people still have negative feelings about Carpenters music. Whether that's learned from older friends and relatives or what, I can't say.

Perhaps over time, as old prejudices fade away, Carpenters music will once again come into favor.

Meantime, play your CDs and marvel at how stupid the masses can be.

Harry
 
Harry --

Can you explain why, universally, there are "negative feelings" about Carpenters music?
 
It goes back to the decade from which they sprang. The '70s was a decade marked with a lot of different kind of music. You had the ballads, the bubblegum, soul, hard rock, hair bands, and disco all vying for popularity.

The decade started as a sort of continuation of the '60s, so early on, Carpenters music fit right in, being played back to back with Three Dog Night, Jimi Hendrix, Blood, Sweat & Tears, and The Four Tops. Top 40 radio still existed to play all of these disparate acts side by side, being all things to all people.

So back then you had the sweet-sounding Carpenters alongside some of the harsher sounds of the day. Those that favored harder sounds like rock, soul, funk, tended to dismiss Carpenters as sugary sweet and thus began their descent into being called "Goody Four-shoes".

As radio began to discover that it could focus its playlist to a narrower audience and guarantee that everyone in a certain demographic would be listening to that station alone, you had the birth of rock-only, soul-only, disco-only, etc. radio stations. There were yet some soft-rock stations at the end of the decade where one could still hear the "Superstar" and "Rainy Days And Mondays" hits from earlier in the decade.

As the '80s began, a shift had developed where people were known to call radio stations and tell them to stop playing Carpenters music. They (these audience members) could take the Elton Johns and the Roberta Flacks, but they really somehow hated Carpenters, Barry Manilow and Bread, three softer-sounding staples from earlier in the decade, and all with monster success. Their hits were played over and over again, and frankly, people just got sick of them.

Carpenters had this image problem. They were perceived by the "hip" among us as decidedly "un-hip." Too soft, sugary, sickening sweet - all adjectives used to describe Carpenters music.

So, as the '80s wore on, more and more stations dropped their Carpenters, Manilow and Bread records, relegating them to nostalgia formatted stations that also played Sinatra, Tony Bennett and Doris Day.

Now, THOSE radio stations are all but gone, as their audience has aged and passed on. These days, while the '70s are the main focus for oldies stations, you're still not gonna hear the softer sounds as these stations are still trying to play not only old music, but be perceived as "hip" and "with-it".

And when these stations test out music, they still find those high negative attitudes towards this stuff. Radio is an average audience-driven medium, trying to please as many as it can in the demographic it seeks. As such, it strives to play only the highest-testing stuff. They don't care if you listen all the time - only that you tune in often enough to hear the commercials that thety're selling to their advertisers.

So, if everyone in the target demo loves Elton John's "Your Song", then that's the soft male vocal that they'll put on the station and rotate it every 18 hours. And they won't be playing Carpenters' "Superstar" because they're afraid that too many people will hit the button for the next station up the dial.

The stations are more afraid of LOSING audience than they are in attracting one.

Harry
 
For what it's worth, XM's '70s channel plays hit records from the 70s without regard to whether they're seen as "cool" today or not. Therefore, you hear plenty of Carpenters music, along with "Rise" and "Rotation" by Herb Alpert.

That sounds great, but it has a downside. You also get treated to "Disco Duck," "The Streak," "Convoy," and people like the DiFranco Family and Melanie. But the good outweighs the bad, and there are no commercials.
 
Mike Blakesley said:
For what it's worth, XM's '70s channel plays hit records from the 70s without regard to whether they're seen as "cool" today or not. Therefore, you hear plenty of Carpenters music, along with "Rise" and "Rotation" by Herb Alpert.

They play Carpenters a bit, I've noticed. Neat to hear among all the other stuff. "Superstar" seems to be a favorite. I've heard quite a few songs, although they're usually the fodder you find on the "Singles" compilation.
 
It depends what station you are listening to. About every station on the radio has some kind of "call letters" There is one here that touts their call letter and say we are the station the plays hits from the 80's, 90's and today. Well you will never hear Carpenters on that station cause face it most of the C hit's were from the 70's. Most pop radio stations are going to play today's pop music not the Carpenters.

Here there is a another station after their call letters they tout, light and refreshing music, I have heard some C music played rare but I have heard it, along with other artists from the 70's. You have to seek out stations that play music from the 70's basically otherwise you won't here the C's.

For me...I never listen to radio, the only time my car is tuned to the radio is for traffic reports before I leave home first few minutes in the car and again when I leave work, otherwise it's CD's all the way. My time is too valuable to be listening to radio junk :D
 
If not for my Radio Station I used to normally listen to switching to Country--And NEW Country at that--, I think I'd be hearing endless plays of "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft", "Top Of The World", "Yesterday Once More", "Superstar", "Only Yesterday", "Touch Me When We're Dancing", "(They Long To Be) Close To You", "Please Mr. Postman", "For All We Know" and "We've Only Just Begun"...

Well, at least I actually hear MARY CHAPIN Carpenter...!!! :biglaugh:



Dave
 
I also enjoy XM's 70's on 7 channel. They play a lot of music on there that I haven't heard since the 1970's. They play all the same music we actually heard on Top 40 radio in the 70's. Our local Oldies station only plays Carpenters music at Christmas time. Even on the call in show, noone seems to request it. And their play list is so narrow in comparison.

Being a teenager in the 70's I remember all too well how tough it was to be a Carpenters music fan. Most people my age just did not understand the appeal. There were a few of us who didn't care and bought every album and single as they came out. I've never lost my love for their music and especially Karen's heaven sent voice. :agree:
 
Well, at least I actually hear MARY CHAPIN Carpenter...!!!

And you don't hear too much of Mary Chapin Carpenter anymore, either. At least, not her newer stuff. Everything she's done in the last 10 years is far too intelligent for today's radio...

Sorry about that little diversion, but I don't think I've ever seen Mary Chapin Carpenter mentioned here before. I adore her with nearly as much devotion as I have for Karen and Richard!

And the Carpenters certainly aren't the first to experience radio "backlash". How many years was it after the death of disco before you started hearing the Bee Gees on the radio again? The audience eventually came around, but for a while they were considered radio poison.

Personally, I listen our local NPR and classical stations, but pretty much never tune in for anything else. I got myself a car stereo into which I can hook my iPod directly, and I just leave it on "shuffle" mode all the time, so it's like a radio station in that you never know what you'll hear next -- but it's all songs I like.

David
 
Harry said:
It goes back to the decade from which they sprang. The '70s was a decade marked with a lot of different kind of music. You had the ballads, the bubblegum, soul, hard rock, hair bands, and disco all vying for popularity...

Thank you, Harry, for your in-depth analysis. I've never regularly listened to the radio, and have only a vague notion of how the whole commercial process works...the promotion of singles, playlists, and whatnot. (On the other hand, "records" fascinated me from the earliest age -- the apparent endless discovery of LPs and 45 music in my parents' and older siblings' collections was much more fun than listening to the AM/FM tuner.)
 
They miss out on the cool quotient...except, of course, for Christmas when Carpenters are all over the airwaves. It's that time of year when the world... can let down their ridiculous guard and enjoy pure genius. I must agree with Harry at this point regarding the 'stupid masses' out there. May I assume that they also have the right to vote? smirk...and what could be more "cool" than either Goodbye To Love or Superstar. I have to run now; I need to find my blinders!
 
I think I can sum up in three words what made the Carpenters music uncool back in the day:

Too much orchestra

Think about it. There are lots of "singer/songwriter" songs from the '70s that still get airplay, from the likes of Carole King, James Taylor, Joni Mitchell, Crosby/Stills/Nash, Jackson Browne, Carly Simon, etc. None of them have the heavy orchestration that the Carpenters did. Add that to the "smiley" image they had, and it's no wonder they were branded "sickly sweet."

Now I'm not dissing Richard's orchestrating skills. It's part of what made their sound what it was, along with Karen's voice. I'm just saying, all those strings and harps and woodwinds were probably the biggest thing that led folks to cast them in the E-Z listening fold...incorrect as it is.
 
Good fodder for thought. And thanks, Harry, for explaining it all to us.
I have felt for a long time that Richard needed to release an album made of Carps hits with just piano, drums, bass, and guitar. It would give stations that dont like the orchestra "new" versions to play and maybe reasons to play Carps in the first place. And for us die-hards, something new to marvel at the wonder of Karen's voice!
 
I had that idea too. Kind of the equivalent of an "Unplugged" album, except it would be "un-orchestrated."

But since arrangements and orchestrations are Richard's major contributions to the records, I have a feeling he'd kibosh such an idea.

I think for most Carpenters fans, the orchestrations are part of what gives the music its appeal. I know I'm in that camp.
 
Mike Blakesley said:
...I think for most Carpenters fans, the orchestrations are part of what gives the music its appeal....


It must'a been a first for Young Artists such as them to have orchestations in their music as it was to have music which was not even in the EZ Listn'nin' Field that needed to be orchestrated...!

Listen to artists like The Bee Gees, Yvonne Elliman and many more that Richard and Karen must have had that sort of an effect on and you'll see a lot of acts that were loved for those softer sounds (yet heavy on strings, brass and woodwinds and some guitars) while they were briefly in vogue, though way beyond the realms of more harder guitar-based Rock that at first everyone was into and had long been an influence before more Middle-of-the-Road types of genres had taken over the music world...

The Carpenters gave way to Soft Rock and perhaps the groups they influenced just as easily also made their way to Disco... Funny how all, and all it began with an avoidance of Hard Rock, while new groups and artists, were of course coming out anyway, to still keep that "void" filled...



Dave
 
It must'a been a first for Young Artists such as them to have orchestations in their music as it was to have music which was not even in the EZ Listn'nin' Field that needed to be orchestrated...!

Actually, the whole "orchestration" of rock music started with the Beach Boys' PET SOUNDS and the Beatles' REVOLVER back in 1966. Songs like "God Only Knows" and "Eleanor Rigby" made use of orchestral instruments for a new sound in "rock" music.

Even earlier than this, "pop" music was using orchestral accompaniment rather frequently. Look at the output of Burt Bacharach and Hal David in the early '60s -- Dionne Warwick's "Anyone Who Had A Heart" or "Walk On By," Dusty Springfield's "Wishin' and Hopin'," etc.

I don't think we can blame to Carpenters' lack of radio play today entirely on the orchestral accompaniments. In many ways, the arrangements gave Karen and Richard a more "timeless" sound than they would have had if they used only electric piano, fuzz guitar and tambourine.

The "goody-four-shoes" image seems to me to have more directly impacted their coolness factor by the late '70s. If you compare someone like Olivia Newton-John, who had a similar image in the early '70s, you'll see that Olivia remained popular by changing her image, starting with GREASE (Sandy 2). Her music followed suit with the album TOTALLY HOT, and even her brief foray into disco (XANADU) was overcome with the much more adult and suggestive PHYSICAL.

If anything, I think the "sadness" factor of the Carpenters' music is one of the things keeping them off the radio. I think that the average radio listener still associates the Carpenters with tragedy and loss, even if they weren't a big fan to begin with. Most people don't like to have those feelings stirred up, so there's a negative reaction to the music. That's the response I get when friends tell me they don't want to hear the Carpenters in my car or at my house -- "It's too sad."

David
 
If anything, I think the "sadness" factor of the Carpenters' music is one of the things keeping them off the radio.
ticket to ride sad
close to you happy
we've only just happy
for all we know surface happy but the lyric suggests doubt so both
rainy days sad
superstar sad
hurting each sad
it's going to sad
goodbye to love sad
sing surface happy again so both
yesterday once sad
top of the world happy
I wont last happy
please Mr postman upbeat sad
Only Yesterday happy(as is the flipside of the single wink)
solitaire sad bordering on handgun material
there's a kind happy
i n eed to be sad
goofus sad (for the listener) kidding happy
all you get sad
calling occupants inspirational happy??
sweet, sweet, smile happy
i believe you happy
touch me happy
those good happy
back in my upbeat sad
make believe sleeping with a total stranger how happy can that be?sad
your baby sad
something in your eyes happy
if i had you sad
i may have forgotten single tracks but i am now open to this sad theory. not that anyone asked. I obviously cannot master how to f'ing make a clean list. Hope it is readable. Thanks all.
 
David, I agree with your post. I have heard that comment too from friends or family that are forced into hearing them either in my home or in my car, "their music is just so sad, how can you listen to that?" Is what I usually hear. Although my family understands my love for their music it's usually friends that give me the jive every now and then.

Olivia is a good example because she was always teased about being miss goody 2 shoes, but she took risks in her career, Grease was something Olivia was not even sure about taking on and opted for a screen test before she made a decision, then with her direction of Totally hot played more into the tight fitting black pants and top hits like A Little More Love and Deeper than the Night, then her huge risk with Physical, with that song even being banned in some states for being too risk-kay. But here we are today and Olivia is still the sweatheart she was back then before all this.

Karen watched Olivia in her career and I applaud Karen for taking that same risk in her career by making the solo album, it was a huge risk for Karen to have done that project, it's just so sad it did not turn out the way she had planned. So then with the Carpenters I feel MIA their comeback album was just not taking much risks, artists need to take some risks to keep things fresh in the music industry. I mean releasing a song like Beechwood 45789, well it's too safe, too much like Now and Then, been there done that. I wished MIA could have been better than it was since it was the last album together. I think if Karen had lived Carpenters would have found another hit but I also feel Karen would have eventually gone solo too.

If Karen only knew how popular their music is still after all these years, it doesn't "have" to be played on today's radio to be popular, Richard produced and arranged hits that have stood the test of time, play some of their popular hits to anyone you know and they will remember the songs, Rainy Days, Top of the World, Superstar, Goodbye to Love...people just know them not because their still being played on today popular radio but because they are memorable songs that are timeless and perfectly arranged with a voice of an angel singing. :love:
 
I had fun reading your song titles (happy sad) !!! And it does ring true. I too had people in the early 80's prior to Karen's passing tell me their music was sad, but they loved her voice and she made you feel the pain! Then, after Karen passed, that sadness was amplified and now, to this day associated with Anorexia Nervosa. At least it's awareness of (in my opinion) the greatest singer who ever lived - and a horrible deadly disease. No doubt a recognition neither one of them could have imagined early on.
 
Somehow I've forgotten to add "Rainy Days & Mondays" to my list of songs, though it's been a long time since I heard that on the radio and I used to hear it frequently... "Sweet, Sweet Smile", though I recently heard and that was just before my Station that I listened to changed its format (to New Country) so I have to get used to going back to my old Radio Station which played Oldies along with its "Brasilian, Big Band and Brass" (Sergio Mendes & Herb Alpert +/- TjB were its staples...) It's now only an Oldies format and strictly that...!

Though I have frequently gotten into the "New Music" on Radio Disney also on my AM "dial" but that's because I can easily get to my favorite music on AM and not having to do all the switching staion-to-station as I frequently found myself doing on FM (mostly 'cause of all those COMMERCIALS!)



Dave
 
One of our local FM stations - Kost-103 - used to play a lot of their music; I'd hear 1 or 2 songs during an 8-hour period at work. I haven't listened to the station in quite a few months and this may no longer be the case.

I'm always amazed at how 'contemporary' their music still sounds. I credit Richard and his arrangements - which weren't tied to the 70's - for much of this. Rainy Days and Mondays, Superstar, For All We Know - in my opinion - could have been recorded this year.

Karen's voice also played a big part in this. She just sang - no theatrics.

I saw Bette Midler in Las Vegas a few weeks ago - great show. But at one point she was speaking (in one of her characters) about the music biz and how no one really just made music anymore. At one point she told the 'producer' that she thought she knew what he wanted and proceeded to sing a song a la Christina Aguilera - hitting various notes up and down the scale. The audience laughed and applauded.

In the end I think all of us just want beautiful music, and I'm convinced Karen and Richard's music will continue to stand the test of time.
 
davidgra said:
It must'a been a first for Young Artists such as them to have orchestations in their music as it was to have music which was not even in the EZ Listn'nin' Field that needed to be orchestrated...!

Actually, the whole "orchestration" of rock music started with the Beach Boys' PET SOUNDS and the Beatles' REVOLVER back in 1966. Songs like "God Only Knows" and "Eleanor Rigby" made use of orchestral instruments for a new sound in "rock" music.

Even earlier than this, "pop" music was using orchestral accompaniment rather frequently. Look at the output of Burt Bacharach and Hal David in the early '60s -- Dionne Warwick's "Anyone Who Had A Heart" or "Walk On By," Dusty Springfield's "Wishin' and Hopin'," etc.

I don't think we can blame to Carpenters' lack of radio play today entirely on the orchestral accompaniments. In many ways, the arrangements gave Karen and Richard a more "timeless" sound than they would have had if they used only electric piano, fuzz guitar and tambourine.

The "goody-four-shoes" image seems to me to have more directly impacted their coolness factor by the late '70s. If you compare someone like Olivia Newton-John, who had a similar image in the early '70s, you'll see that Olivia remained popular by changing her image, starting with GREASE (Sandy 2). Her music followed suit with the album TOTALLY HOT, and even her brief foray into disco (XANADU) was overcome with the much more adult and suggestive PHYSICAL.

If anything, I think the "sadness" factor of the Carpenters' music is one of the things keeping them off the radio. I think that the average radio listener still associates the Carpenters with tragedy and loss, even if they weren't a big fan to begin with. Most people don't like to have those feelings stirred up, so there's a negative reaction to the music. That's the response I get when friends tell me they don't want to hear the Carpenters in my car or at my house -- "It's too sad."

David

Actually, orchestrated rock music goes back to Buddy Holly; listen to IT'S RAINING IN MY HEART and EVERY DAY...it's in there.


When I listen to The Carpenters, I'm struck by Karen's voice...there's such a large amount of vulnerability present, and it seems that so many of their songs were either about lost love or boundless optimism. I just can't listen to their music and not think about the tragedy of Karen's death. I know it's not fair, but I just can't force myself to listen to their music anymore. It's like the songs were a window into Karen's soul and cries for help, that when it finally came was too little and too late.

Dan
 
I have XM in one of my cars...it only took me about two days after getting the car to subscribe.

My opinion is that the Carpenters are similar to most other pop music acts, be they groups or individuals. Occasionally, you find someone who maintains a high level of mass audience appeal for years - similar to what they might have experienced at the outset of their career. Barry Manilow is such an example. He might even have a wider audience today than thirty years or so ago.

Most such acts gradually fall into some degree of oblivion - often total oblivion.

Herb Alpert and the TJB cannot even remotely claim the popularity today as in the sixties. My opinion sadly is that a majority of people under 40-45 (I'm just guessing about that age range) have never even heard of Herb Alpert; let alone know and recognize the music or are fans.

Radio...it has always been something of a mystery to me. The last time I somewhat thought I understood radio was back at the end of the sixties when it was a big mix of everything played side by side, as mentioned above. You heard it all in one place - except the Easy Listening type of playlist. That kind of thing comes with my cable TV provider nowadays.

Top 40 AM radio played everything that comprised the pop or rock music of the day. And, you could hear both national and local news and weather hourly. I remember local stations operating right here in this area that played everything from the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Beach Boys, Doors, Herb Alpert, Brasil 66, all the British Invasion, soft rock like the Association and Classics IV, others such as Tommy James and the Shondells, Monkees, Rascals, every one hit wonder that ever existed, bubblegum, Motown...everything. I even remember hearing songs such as Paul Mauriat's Love is Blue (big Top 40 hit) and Raymond Lefevre's Soul Coaxing - both from 1968 - on Top 40.

XM Channel 6 - the Sixties gives me the best opportunity to hear that kind of playlist coming from a radio today.
 
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