Winds Of Barcelona/El Presidente
- Thread starter Harry
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big noise from chicago said:Sounds like one of my lost weekends.artyhat:
Heeheehee...
Then again, in my life, a "lost weekend" consists of two days spent trying to fix something out in the garage, that would normally take an hour or two, but with constant interruptions and the inability to find those two or three important tools, takes forever. Methinks I may have become too domesticated...?
Sheep-free,
-= N =-
I've never understood that at all. Maybe it's only perceptible to you freaks of nature with perfect pitch.
Most of Horace Silver's songs were written in Db. Most of Hank Mobley's and Dexter Gordon's compositions are in Bb. The original version of "Take Five" was in Eb minor (concert key). On flute, I play it in C minor. There's no difference in mood that I can hear.
With regard to "Barcelona" vs. "Presidente," I like them both but I prefer "Barcelona." Maybe the Db key signature has something to do with it, I don't know... but I like the more overtly wistful sound of "Barcelona."
- William
William said:I've never understood that at all. Maybe it's only perceptible to you freaks of nature with perfect pitch.
Yeah...rub it in. I was able to keep it a secret all throughout school until 11th grade, from which I was constantly subjected to someone banging on the piano asking me what notes they hit.
But more seriously, I don't know why it is this way, but some listeners and musicians, like myself, feel a difference between keys. Don't know whether it is emotional, subliminal, or whatever. It's like a more subtle variation of the difference between chords that are major (happy), minor (sad), diminished (even more sad, or foreboding), or augmented (anticipatory).
I'm not up on my music theory like I used to be, but I believe there have always been two schools of thought: there is a difference in sound or mood, or there isn't a difference. (In other words, some classical composers have felt like I do, while others just dismiss it as hogwash.) Songs in F# (or Gb, if you will) always have a certain "feel" to me...the TJB's "Darlin'" and "Love So Fine" are both in that key, and they are two of my favorites. The original "Take Five" in Eb minor is a relative of Gb (the old "count down three" on the scale rule to turn a major into a minor). C#/Db are the other keys that have a special feel to me.
Seeing that the opening chord is a Gb major, and the main Db key is a favorite, that explains why I like it as much as I do.
Maybe I should put my feelings of the key signatures into words, like I did with maj/min/dim/aug.
-= N =-
...way too deep into theory...
That's interesting, Harry. I hate sharps, or more specifically, I hate playing in sharp keys (on any instrument). I write in flats, I improvise in flats, I think in flats. Sharps just don't come naturally to me. I can't perceive any difference in the way they sound, though -- and incidentally, my cheap-o turntable plays everything about a quarter-tone flat, so I'm not even hearing my records in their intended key.
But as far as key signatures go, it's all relative to me. For instance, any of the following resolutions would sound the same to my ears (provided I heard each pair a few minutes apart):
Abmin7b5 to Gbmaj7
Gbmin7b5 to Emaj7
Emin7b5 to Dmaj7
Dmin7b5 to Cmaj7
...because each of those resolutions is the same relative to its key. (The Dmin7b5 chord works because it's a variant of G7sus4b9/D and Bdim7/D, which resolve naturally to C, C6, Cmaj7, etc.) I'm not hip to any difference in mood between them, as long as the suffixes and changes are the same.
- William
But as far as key signatures go, it's all relative to me. For instance, any of the following resolutions would sound the same to my ears (provided I heard each pair a few minutes apart):
Abmin7b5 to Gbmaj7
Gbmin7b5 to Emaj7
Emin7b5 to Dmaj7
Dmin7b5 to Cmaj7
...because each of those resolutions is the same relative to its key. (The Dmin7b5 chord works because it's a variant of G7sus4b9/D and Bdim7/D, which resolve naturally to C, C6, Cmaj7, etc.) I'm not hip to any difference in mood between them, as long as the suffixes and changes are the same.
- William
What's really funny about what you said, Harry:
Ab = G#
Bb = A#
Cb = B
Db = C#
Eb = D#
Fb = E
Gb = F#
So...would G# play happier than Ab? (A good leg pullin', no? )
Most of the time, I find minor keys (flatted third) to be sadder. My sax teacher was most fond of the augmented chord, which is 1, 3, and a sharped 5. Today I notice, though, that a song written in D major with the 7th added (D, F#, A, C#) still had a melancholic sound to it. ("Ventura Highway" by America.) Maybe it was the added 7th? "America" by Simon & Garfunkel is similar--most of the song is in a major key, but still is a bit melancholic.
-= N =-
Ab = G#
Bb = A#
Cb = B
Db = C#
Eb = D#
Fb = E
Gb = F#
So...would G# play happier than Ab?
(A good leg pullin', no? )Most of the time, I find minor keys (flatted third) to be sadder. My sax teacher was most fond of the augmented chord, which is 1, 3, and a sharped 5. Today I notice, though, that a song written in D major with the 7th added (D, F#, A, C#) still had a melancholic sound to it. ("Ventura Highway" by America.) Maybe it was the added 7th? "America" by Simon & Garfunkel is similar--most of the song is in a major key, but still is a bit melancholic.
-= N =-
William said:
I grew up with piano since age 5. I just got used to the way everything was notated. Some keys were meant to be flatted (key of F has a Bb on the scale), where others were sharped (key of G has an F# in it). For some reason, keys like Gb aren't used as much as F#, even though it is the exact same note!
That was one reason I got a direct-drive turntable. My belt-drive was just a hair faster than what it should have been. It got easy to tell, because the timings were always short of what the album jacket read.
Maybe you need to pick up a decent Dual (great 'table, and plentiful on eBay)...or at least get one w/ the accessory Grusin filter installed.
Well, THERE goes ten minutes of conversation about perfect pitch!
I'm still trying to remember what my sax teacher told me. There is perfect pitch, and absolute pitch. One is being able to tell which note it is, and the other is being able to tell if that note is in tune or not! I can't tell exactly if it is in tune (I'm not a tuning machine
), but it really bothers me when some recordings play back at a pitch that is halfway between two notes! Most annoying to me is the Shorty Rogers album The Wizard Of Oz and Other Harold Arlen Songs. It's a terrific album (goes without saying
), but for "We're Off To See The Wizard", it's halfway between the key of A and Bb...and the whole album is recorded that way! (The CD version sucks--it's in crappy hiss-laden mono from RCA/Spain! Same pitch problem.) I can only guess that it was written for Bb, and I turn up the pitch on the turntable just a bit to put it in tune. Another song that gets a little uneasy is The Beatles' "Strawberry Fields". If it sounds slightly lethargic for Lennon, it is: the orchestral portion appears to have been recorded in Bb, but the "band" version was probably recorded in B, whereupon it was slowed down to match the orchestral version.
-= N =-
..."Cranberry Sauce", not "I Bury Paul"...
Rudy said:
Definitely. Adding the major 7th to a major chord has that effect. The two-chord repeat at the end of "Girl From Ipanema" is F#7, Fmaj7, F#7, Fmaj7, F#7, Fmaj7... etc. The Fmaj7 is full of longing and wistfulness. "Old Friends" by Simon & Garfunkel is based almost entirely on maj7 chords... that song is about as melancholic as it gets.
I suppose the duality of that chord may come from the fact that in adding the C# to a D major (for instance), it has the same effect as playing a Dmaj and an F#min at the same time.
- William
Captain Bacardi
Well-Known Member
Rudy said:Well, THERE goes ten minutes of conversation about perfect pitch!
That reminds me of a Joe Walsh guitar video I watched while at a friend's house in Pennsylvania. Walsh said "Sing the lowest note you can, identify the note, and from there you'll have perfect pitch." My friend and I just looked at each other and tried to figure out just what drugs Joe was on at the time.
Capt. Bacardi
Rudy said:
So did I... possibly younger. Problem was, I didn't bother to read anything until I was about 16. I think I spent that entire decade completely ignoring sharps.
Maybe you need to pick up a decent Dual (great 'table, and plentiful on eBay)...or at least get one w/ the accessory Grusin filter installed.
As long as it's a Grusin-only filter. I don't want to lose any Don Sebesky.
Remind me not to let you listen to any CD's I've made from vinyl!
I think all of mine are "betwixt and between," so to speak, due to the slow turntable.Most annoying to me is the Shorty Rogers album The Wizard Of Oz and Other Harold Arlen Songs. It's a terrific album (goes without saying
That reminds me of the original vinyl pressings of Miles' Kind Of Blue. I'm pretty sure Columbia fixed it for the CD, but wasn't side 2 of the LP pressed a quarter-tone flat for many years?
- William
William said:
That would make sense, even when the bass is playing a D. On the other hand, a Dmin with a 7th is like playing with an Fmaj at the same time. "Chove Chuva."
Another song I'm thinking of is "Ripples..." by Genesis (from Trick Of The Tail). The chorus ("sail away, away...") has some very interesting changes to it, starting out with 7ths and 9ths, and by modulating one or two of the notes, change the entire mood of it. Would be easier to find a sound clip than try to explain it all.
That album would actually be a good candidate to have some of the songs performed in a jazz setting. (But we'd have to get Don Ellis back on earth to do the middle 13/8 section of "Robbery Assault & Battery". )-= N =-
venturaguy49
Member
Well, shiver me timbers, that someone recalls the
'live' version of 'Barcelona', ( I had the good fortune, back in '67 to attend a live T.J.B. concert at the Hollywood Bowl ) and the aforementioned arrangement I recall for one main reason, and that was Pisano's groovy guitar licks that ran throughout, which may have been a tip o' the hat to Wes Montgomery, who had success with it. Should you
aquire a copy of Wes' "California Dreaming" album/cd, you'll be treated to a slew of T.J.B.-related material, but enough of one of my fav'rite guitarists
(yeppers, I'm a real W.M. fan, too!), but on to the T.J.B.'s various versions, which as most Alpert fans know, is par for the course, as Herb has a penchant for redoing material, and frequently to great effect.
As for rating the best of three fine performances, I'd rather toss a coin, as
each has it's uniquely special virtues. For starters, the original 'Barcelona'
as featured on Vol 2 is pleasingly understated, in contrast to the canon blasts and fanfare of the reissue, which is also cool. What I'd do here, in my typical tradition of mentioning something unusual, is to say, as not only a jazzer, but also knowing that Alpert is one, too, is that the selection
"Swinger From Seville" bears a close relationship to a thing written and
recorded by jazzer Thelonious Monk, which is known as "Blue Monk".
The similarity is notable. Now, as a closer, should any of you locate the
*single* version of "Mexican Corn", you'll be delighted in hearing bass notes from piano overdubbed onto the otherwise same familiar track.
Warm Wishes,
Steve, who's still very much a T.J.B.fan to this very moment
'live' version of 'Barcelona', ( I had the good fortune, back in '67 to attend a live T.J.B. concert at the Hollywood Bowl ) and the aforementioned arrangement I recall for one main reason, and that was Pisano's groovy guitar licks that ran throughout, which may have been a tip o' the hat to Wes Montgomery, who had success with it. Should you
aquire a copy of Wes' "California Dreaming" album/cd, you'll be treated to a slew of T.J.B.-related material, but enough of one of my fav'rite guitarists
(yeppers, I'm a real W.M. fan, too!), but on to the T.J.B.'s various versions, which as most Alpert fans know, is par for the course, as Herb has a penchant for redoing material, and frequently to great effect.
As for rating the best of three fine performances, I'd rather toss a coin, as
each has it's uniquely special virtues. For starters, the original 'Barcelona'
as featured on Vol 2 is pleasingly understated, in contrast to the canon blasts and fanfare of the reissue, which is also cool. What I'd do here, in my typical tradition of mentioning something unusual, is to say, as not only a jazzer, but also knowing that Alpert is one, too, is that the selection
"Swinger From Seville" bears a close relationship to a thing written and
recorded by jazzer Thelonious Monk, which is known as "Blue Monk".
The similarity is notable. Now, as a closer, should any of you locate the
*single* version of "Mexican Corn", you'll be delighted in hearing bass notes from piano overdubbed onto the otherwise same familiar track.
Warm Wishes,
Steve, who's still very much a T.J.B.fan to this very moment
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