Yesterday Once More HDCD

[andywithaz]

This was released in Japan. It is a regular Yesterday Once More double CD except it is a HDCD. HDCD has 20 bits instead of 16. It pops up on ebay from time to time. Does anybody have this What does it sound like

 

[Harry]

I have a feeling that the HDCD stuff emanating from Asia are bootlegs. Be wary of this stuff - there are many unscrupulous Asian bootleggers preying on unsuspecting fans around the world.

One clue is an official looking release currently on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2579365392&category=1057


This seller places the following claim on his ad for his DSD release, which looks official to me:

*Universal Music Limited NEVER released The Carpenters on HDCD, if you see the carpenters-HDCD, that mean it is illegal.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Harry
...wary of bootleggers, online...

 

[andywithaz]

Thanks so much because I almost bought it

 

[Rudy]

This seller places the following claim on his ad for his DSD release, which looks official to me:

It does LOOK official, that's for sure. But he's totally lost on the concept of DSD, CDs and SACD. Extremely misleading, in that many sellers who aren't totally aware of how the formats work will think they are buying CDs that sound like SACDs. There is NO SUCH THING as a DSD CD. 100% misleading.

A CD is PCM digital, 44.1kHz, 16 bit. If it ever deviated AT ALL, it would no longer be a "Compact Disc" and could not carry the Compact Disc logo.

What this really means on the CD, IF it is legit, is that the recording was remastered to the DSD system. Just like you see CDs today that claim "24 bit remastering"...it's the same thing. To prepare this master for pressing, regardless of what is used, it has to be downsampled to 16 bits at a 44,100Hz sampling rate. Neither one guarantees a good sounding disc either, as any mess-up in the mastering chain can prevent a recording from sounding its best.

I am a little dubious of this release though, as pictured. First, why would ONLY Hong Kong have a DSD-mastered CD? Why not over here, or Japan, where it would make more sense? (So many higher-quality bootlegs come out of China, we all have to be alert as buyers.) I'm sure it wouldn't have been remastered over there. I don't picture any studio in Hong Kong having access to the expensive digital workstations needed to work with DSD! For that matter, I have never seen the DSD logo in conjunction with Sony's SBM (Super Bit-Mapped) logo...SBM is a PCM-based technology and I don't see how it applies to DSD, which is a completely different type of digital encoding.

But IF this is indeed a DSD-mastered recording, then it's possible a true SACD release is in the works for the future. I'd like to think this were true, and that eventually the original albums would be reissued in all their originally-mixed 2-channel glory on SACD, along with new multi-channel 5.1 mixes for the multi-channel portion of SACD.

And finally, doesn't it bother anyone that in this particular auction, the seller repeatedly stresses how legit the CD is?

I smell a fish.

 

[Rudy]

Also regarding HDCD: despite my own feelings about the alleged improvements, the HDCD logo is often misused on bootleg CDs. Other collectors I know have questioned it, and a lot of times the discs have turned out to be boots!

I've rethought my last post as well--Sony's SBM process could have been used when the DSD digital was downsampled to 44.1kHz/16-bit PCM digital. That would make sense.

 

[phoenixfan4]

Good morning folks - Happy Friday.

I just purchased Two HDCD's off of Ebay that came out of Hong Kong and in my opinion are the real deal. The sound is crisp and very clear, and Karen's voice really shines through in this 'expanded' playback process. Far superior to a regular CD I might add. They work on my home CD player and my walkman equally well. I have 'Lovelines' and a "Greatest hits" compilation HDCD's and I am very glad that I made the purchase. As for them being bootleg, if they are, they have gone to a great deal of trouble to do so because the packaging and liner notes are PERFECT. It looks just like something that A&M would put out on the store shelves. Actually, I don't believe these to be bootlegs at all. Eh - who cares anyway? It's Karen and Richard sounding wonderful and that is all that matters to me in my humble opinion. I only paid $20 bucks for the HDCD's each, and that included shipping from Asia. About the same price that I would pay at Best Buy or Tower. But like the above posts are saying, "Buyer beware" any time you buy something off Ebay. You just never know what you may end up with. I just happened to get very lucky with my purchases and will definetly buy more HDCD's from this source again without hesitation. I wish ALL of the Carpenter's catalogue was released in this format. The sound is incredible.

Have a great weekend Y'all.

John in Phoenix

 

[Rudy]

Instant way to tell if those HDCDs are a bootleg: you need to play them in a player that can properly decode HDCD. The bootlegs are phonies, and the HDCD inidicator light does not light up. Many of the so-called HDCDs from that region of the world are bootlegs--the bootleggers just throw on the latest "high tech" logos to make their product more attractive. (And yes, some of them look highly professional, just like the real thing.) I actually know other collectors who have bought discs like this that have turned out to be bootlegs.

 

[davidgra]

I have two of those Chinese releases that say HDCD -- and, believe it or not, the HDCD light actually does come on when I play the discs in my HDCD-compatible player.

However, I would bet money that these are not legitimate CDs. For one, THE SINGLES: 1969-1981 is a 2-CD set, with some of the tracks from the "legit" releases of that album, and the entire AS TIME GOES BY album tossed in (as if all 14 of those songs were singles!).

Second thing, these CDs were either poorly mastered or poorly manufactured; while the discs look clean and free of scratches, there is a huge amount of data error present in the discs. I have audio extraction software that allows you to view a report any time a data error is found, and these discs are full of them! Not so you'd notice in a CD player, which can correct for it, but when you look at the raw data, there are dozens and dozens of data errors throughout the disc.
The artwork on these CDs is also substandard. The CD I bought called 20 GREATEST HITS has the cover for LOVELINES -- complete with the title "Lovelines." Only on the spine of the jewel box and on the CD itself does it say 20 GREATEST HITS. And although the cover says LOVELINES, the disc opens with "Dancing in the Street." I didn't realize that was one of their greatest hits!

So I'd guess that these are very well-made pirated copies. With the right equipment, I'd guess that it would be fairly easy for someone to make HDCD discs from a 16-bit source (especially in a country where no one is checking copyright at the CD pressing plants). It doesn't improve the sound any, but it makes it LOOK fancier...
David

 

[davidgra]

We have a little confused terminology going on here, and I wanted to clarify a few things. I don't think everyone here is quite aware of what some of these things are...

HDCD - High-definition compatible digital
This is a format that is sort of in between regular CDs and DVD-Audio. The difference is that regular CDs have 16-bit samples, and HDCDs have 20-bit samples. In simple terms, those are the size of each chunk of data that is sampled from the source (in the case of CDs, we're talking 44,100 times per second). HDCDs are compatible with any CD player.

HOWEVER, if you play a HDCD on a regular CD player, you are hearing 16-bit sound. Your player is not capable of decoding the 20-bit data.

And even if you play a HDCD in a HDCD-compatible player, the improvement in sounds is marginal, at best. A well-mastered 16-bit CD will not sound noticably different from a HDCD equivalent. (This is my opinion and not what the record companies will tell you, but believe me, HDCD is nothing to get excited about.)

Other definitions that are a little confused:

BOOTLEG -- an unauthorized release of material which is not otherwise comercially available. Examples are live concert recordings made without the artist's permission, or the release of songs that the record company or the artist has not released themselves (like Karen Carpenter's solo session outtakes).

PIRATE -- a pirated copy is an unauthorized release of material that is legitimately available. These Chinese Carpenters' CDs qualify as pirated copies, because all the material is available worldwide on legitimate CDs. Of course, they're only pirated copies of the royalties aren't being paid to the appropriate people. If they really are licensed from A&M/Universal, then they're the real deal.

I have an Olivia Newton-John DVD of her 1982 HBO special (and subsequent video release), and it looks like the real thing! DTS 5.1-channel sound, great packaging, artwork, menus, etc. But Olivia's people have said that it is not a legitimate item, no matter how good it looks. So over there in the land of manufacturing, they're capable of doing amazing things. (By the way, the DTS 5.1-channel audio track is just an artificially-created surround, made using the 2-track stereo audio in some sort of surround simulator.)

David

 

[andywithaz]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2582732441&category=1057

Look at this fake thing that I found on ebay

I didn't think that this deserved a whole new thread so I just posted it here.

 

[Rudy]

The misspellings give it away. "The Best" comes out as "HTE BSET".

Typical bootlegger move is to use the logos from current or "premium" technology. In some cases, they CAN make bootlegs that claim to have HDCD capabilites, and will actually be recorded as such...but they're just copies of the existing 16-bit CDs.

Plus, note the part about the discs being guaranteed to play in your CD player. Normal CDs don't have that problem!

 

[andywithaz]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2583910113&category=1057
ha ha ha

look what this seller has come up with now


I don't want to bore people with this topic but I just want you to see what lengths people will go through just to sell something.

 

[Rudy]

Yep, it's that bogus seller again--same "DSD" disc as before. It just occured to me that the "DSD" logo was something pasted in there...normally they would not go to the trouble of making the HDCD or DSD logos in color.

*sigh* What they get away with...

 

[alpertfan]

I wonder if people like that are aware that artists and label execs occasionally do look at these online auction houses like eBay, and know that these bootlegs and pirated collections exist. Somebody's gonna get a big fat lawsuit from either Richard Carpenter or UMG. :scared: It's one thing to make a collection for your own personal use. It's quite another to make copies of it and sell it, or to sell a bootleg. (First of all, the person has no legal right to the source they're trying to use for it, such as recording studio tapes). I would imagine that the homemade compilations people here at the Corner make are okay because nobody sells them. They're for that individual's private use. I've made such collections for myself. And the sharing of how to use the technology I'm sure, does no harm either. But the moment that some artist or record exec reads about somebody trying to sell something they've made (be it a bootleg or pirate), the first questions that come to their minds are, "Who is this person? How can they be contacted so we can notify them of the legal troubles ahead of them?" And they're in the right!

 

[Rudy]

The problem with some of these Carpenters CDs is that they're from China, and legally nobody can even touch them. If I'm reading it correctly on Ebay's site, only the copyright owner can file a complaint. And since A&M owns the masters, and therefore are technically the owners of Carpenters' recorded music, A&M (UMG) would be the only ones capable of filing the complaint. And with the product being from another country where copyright laws are, shall we say, rather loosely interpreted, there's little chance we can do anything about it.

Keeping folks educated about these possible phony discs via this site is one of the best things we can do. If we got more of the internet buying public educated about it, they just wouldn't buy the imported copies to begin with.

 

[alpertfan]

Most UK CDs, DVDs, and HDCDs are "copyright protected". I guess you're right. It really does depend on each country's copyright laws. As was pointed out, I think one of the most obvious ways you could spot a fake is by the spelling of the artist's name. They do this with Herb Alpert, I notice, spelling it, "Herb Albert" or "Herp Albert". But yeah, I think that the best we American music buyers could do is to inform people of legit versus illegit releases, like here on the Corner.

 

[soundboy]

My first post here....

The Carpenters "Yesterday Once More" 2 CD compilation is a legit item. I purchased mine in Hong Kong this past June after reading about it at the Steve Hoffman site. This 2 disc set (catalog number 541 000-2D) was actually released by Universal Music Hong Kong in October 2003 and was featured on its website. It was DSD-remastered and only distributed by Universal Music HK, instead of being distributed by all the separate Universal units in neighboring countries.

It comes with a thick booklet with a biography of the Carpenters in English, then one in traditional Chinese (mainland China uses simplified Chinese). It was only after the release of this compilation that Universal announced the upcoming SACD.

As for DSD equipment in Hong Kong, the city has 2 separate DSD mastering facilities....one is the Philips Wave Motion Mastering Center and the other is at Hong Kong Sony Music. In fact, both HK Warner and HK Universal have been using HK Sony's facilities to DSD-remaster many local albums. HK Universal itself has gone completely digital in its recording studios, fully capable with direct DSD recording, since its previous studios went up in flames several years back (along with some master tapes).

Edit: In Hong Kong, HDCD is NOT supported by HK Universal. The main proponents of HDCD, amongst the majors, were HK Warner and HK Sony. But ever since the rise of DSD-remastering, HDCD has pretty much been abandoned.

 

[Jeff]

okay now, what?

gonna wait on RC for official info.

Jeff

 

[engineer]

There are a few problems here:

1) What you have appears to be a CD -- so it's a 16-bit, 44.1 kHz item. The thread was started about so-called HDCD's that were turning up, but what you have doesn't even qualify as that. It's just a regular old CD.

2) I seriously doubt that Richard sent the original two-channel masters to Hong Kong to let them do their own DSD remastering.

3) Surely the entire Carpenters' catalog has already been transferred using DSD technology -- Richard does not mention a lot of specifics about remastering in the liner notes of recent releases. The recordings on this Hong Kong CD are almost certainly the same ones found on the most recent GOLD compilation here in the U.S.

Dan

 

[soundboy]

Oh yes, this Carpenters compilation is on regular CDs. My post was merely a clarification on the previous posts.

As for Richard sending over the original master tape to Hong Kong for DSD remastering, I seriously doubt that too. However, while the compilation may not use the original master tapes, it does sound very good. From my experience with DSD-remastered titles, from Elvis to the classical albums on Sony, DSD remastering always making an improvement in the sound. At least to my ears.

Here's the info on this compilation directly from Hong Kong Universal's website. Click on the orange "Minisite" buttom on the left for more info. On the bottom right side of the screen, there're 2 small orange buttoms you can click on. Click the one on the left and it will play a one-minute TV commercial (in Cantonese) promoting the compilation.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I'm confused, where is the link? Is this a video promoting the Carpenters?

 

[soundboy]

I don't know why, but Hong Kong Universal's website always loads very slowly. Even with broadband.

In the last paragraph of my previous post, click on the word "info". That will take you to the page on the Carpenters compilation on HK Universal's website. You will see a listing of the tracks on the 2 CDs, and you will see the release date (2003-10) on the left side of the screen. Above that, you will see an orange bottom marked "Minisite". Click on that and it will take you to a pop-up screen on the Carpenters compilation. You will have to wait for it to load as it contains graphics and links. Takes a while. Once the pop-up screen is fully loaded, you will see various links on the top right-hand corner and clips of Carpenters songs as background music. You will also see that it's promoted as DSD-remastered. On the bottom right hand corner, you will see 2 red buttoms, click on the buttom marked "ENG" for a one-minute TV commercial for the compilation in English (the other red buttom is for the Chinese version of the commercial).

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Danny, thanks, I would never have figured out those links & how to get there, just viewed the commercial video, cool to see this. I wish that the Carpenters Gold 35th Anniv Video was on the net to view, the commercial that aired here in the U.S. was excellent, it showed alot of video from their career even a clip from "from this moment on" which I was shocked to see on national tv.

..who regrets not capturing this Gold commercial on video tape while it lasted, online...

 

[soundboy]

No problem, Chris.

I remember the US commercial....excellent!! The Carpenters are still very popular in Hong Kong because their songs are constantly used in TV commercials there. Not to mention songs by the Carpenters are covered by the local singers constantly.