"Zorba The Greek" (Ed Sullivan)
- Thread starter AM Matt
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But I love them anyway!
- They hadn't been together as a group for very long.
- They had been playing Basin Street East for two weeks straight
- Sullivan was maybe their 4th or 5th TV appearance and the most important
To see a live performance from the early days of the TJB is rare indeed. John Pisano's guitar does a terrific job capturing the sound of the bouzouki instrument. And so I imagine the TJB studio recording of Zorba the Greek also used Pisano's guitar not the bouzouki. I am no musician and so the Sullivan Show performance sounded plenty good to me.
I remember reading that Sullivan always wanted music acts to perform "live" on his show, so it is good to see an actual live performance. So many vids from that era are lip synced. (Or I guess in the case of the TJB, "trumpet-synced"!)
Bobberman
Well-Known Member
Always a treat to see and hear these guys actually playing and not syncing sadly I never got to see then in concert in person but I know I would have loved it but thanks to youtube I can at least get a small taste of what it was like
DAN BOLTON
Well-Known Member
I wonder just how much sound stage acoustics and amplification limitations might have had with the sound quality of that clip. I got the feeling that everybody was playing all the notes, but it was hard to hear all of them, as if there were some "dropouts" afoot. Maybe Sullivan's production crew was at fault, or maybe there wasn't very much rehearsal time, ar maybe the television feed itself was at fault. I don't think it was the Brass.
JOv2
Well-Known Member
This is a fascinating historical document.
Careful scrutiny of the observed fingerings indicates Herb plays lead on the accelerando part and during the "lower" melodic part of both fast (prestissimo) sections, while Tonni plays lead on the "higher" melodic part (the climaxes) of both prestissimo sessions.
The 1st prestissimo goes fairly well. During the ending climax, Tonni hits his notes fine: he starts at B below high-C and descends the B scale while Herb starts on G and similarly descends. It’s interesting to note that Tonni only hits each starting note of the descending sequence — he leaves out the famous 8th-note patterns, which Herb carries by himself on his harmony part. In any event everything comes off OK.
The problems start with climax of the 2nd prestissimo as the song nears its rousing conclusion. This time, Tonni actually plays the distinctive 8th-note pattern, but he hits many incorrect notes so it jumbles against Herb who plays his part spot-on. I surmise that after Tonni overshot the starting overtone (hitting C# over high-C instead of hitting B below high-C) he lost his center of pitch and was unable to optimally regroup (recall that with brass instruments, one actually forms the note with the embouchure — the valves are used to lock-in / correct the pitch), so his fingerings were now incorrect. He preserves the rhythm well, but devoid of correctly locking-in the pitch with the correct fingering he’s skating all over the place up there and off-pitch (resembling playing through a mouthpiece). He gets another fresh crack at it at the tail end of the song and although he launches on the correct overtone, he still hits incorrect notes. In either case, either Tonni was correctly fingering but modulated to an incorrect overtone, or his fingering sequence became impacted and he couldn't "find the handle" as we would say. Given it's the only technically demanding piece the TjB (apparently) performed, Tonni surely previously perfected his part to Herb's satisfaction and just had a bad night.
(In defense of Tonni, when playing at this tempo (about 200 BPM), once you lose sync...it's gone. They’re not playing It Wast A Very Good Year after all so there’s no time to think and regroup…your fingers just fly — and as a brass player if you launch on the wrong overtone at that speed...the ship has sailed. Cap’n D and I used to talk about these tech things years ago out here…)
One wishes that some entity would see fit to release at least one full TjB concert. Surely many were filmed and even more were audiotaped in high quality; so it remains odd that zilch has seen the light of day.
Careful scrutiny of the observed fingerings indicates Herb plays lead on the accelerando part and during the "lower" melodic part of both fast (prestissimo) sections, while Tonni plays lead on the "higher" melodic part (the climaxes) of both prestissimo sessions.
The 1st prestissimo goes fairly well. During the ending climax, Tonni hits his notes fine: he starts at B below high-C and descends the B scale while Herb starts on G and similarly descends. It’s interesting to note that Tonni only hits each starting note of the descending sequence — he leaves out the famous 8th-note patterns, which Herb carries by himself on his harmony part. In any event everything comes off OK.
The problems start with climax of the 2nd prestissimo as the song nears its rousing conclusion. This time, Tonni actually plays the distinctive 8th-note pattern, but he hits many incorrect notes so it jumbles against Herb who plays his part spot-on. I surmise that after Tonni overshot the starting overtone (hitting C# over high-C instead of hitting B below high-C) he lost his center of pitch and was unable to optimally regroup (recall that with brass instruments, one actually forms the note with the embouchure — the valves are used to lock-in / correct the pitch), so his fingerings were now incorrect. He preserves the rhythm well, but devoid of correctly locking-in the pitch with the correct fingering he’s skating all over the place up there and off-pitch (resembling playing through a mouthpiece). He gets another fresh crack at it at the tail end of the song and although he launches on the correct overtone, he still hits incorrect notes. In either case, either Tonni was correctly fingering but modulated to an incorrect overtone, or his fingering sequence became impacted and he couldn't "find the handle" as we would say. Given it's the only technically demanding piece the TjB (apparently) performed, Tonni surely previously perfected his part to Herb's satisfaction and just had a bad night.
(In defense of Tonni, when playing at this tempo (about 200 BPM), once you lose sync...it's gone. They’re not playing It Wast A Very Good Year after all so there’s no time to think and regroup…your fingers just fly — and as a brass player if you launch on the wrong overtone at that speed...the ship has sailed. Cap’n D and I used to talk about these tech things years ago out here…)
One wishes that some entity would see fit to release at least one full TjB concert. Surely many were filmed and even more were audiotaped in high quality; so it remains odd that zilch has seen the light of day.
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Back in the day when the TJB was touring in the '60s, Herb was a hands-on sound perfectionist. He was constantly doing sound checks relating to microphones and loudspeakers etc.. My guess is that there isn't one full TJB concert that Herb himself would release, as it wouldn't equal the high standards of his studio recordings. That said, yes, it would be great if some other entity could release a full TJB concert.
Don't forget this audio of Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass at the Hollywood Bowl in 1965. It's combined with Johnny Mathis and the audio wasn't meant to be released.
pastdaily.com
Go to about 27 minutes or so into the audio.
Johnny Mathis - Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass - Hollywood Bowl - 1965 - Past Daily Backstage Weekend
Johnny Mathis - Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass - Live At The Hollywood Bowl - recorded September 11, 1965 - Past Daily Backstage Weekend.
pastdaily.com
Go to about 27 minutes or so into the audio.
martin
Well-Known Member
And we have the Royal Festival Hall Concert from London in November 69 that ITV recorded and showed on British Television on New Year's Eve. It's good in many ways, but there are also some mistakes and of course the only recording(that I know of) of TJB playing "Music To Watch Girls By".
- greetings from the north -
Martin
- greetings from the north -
Martin
TjbBmb
Well-Known Member
Has anyone ever seen the full London concert anywhere floating around? I know Sleepy Night Records has the full concert and is not releasing it. I don’t know where they got it from. I’ve seen all the tv specials and most of the tv appearances pop up on Ebay, but never the Albert Hall concert.
Watching this Ed Sullivan clip it looks like Tonni has broken into an intense sweat by the end of the song. But what's more interesting is they are actually playing as opposed to playing along (lip syncing) with a pre-recorded track, as was the most common way of doung it on those days.
--Mr Bill
--Mr Bill
JOv2
Well-Known Member
That's because he's messing up -- on coast-to-coast television -- with an audience of millions -- on the piece that's supposed to bring the house down...and he's gonna have to answer up to Mr. A. afterward...
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
It looks and sounds to me that the horns are being supported by John Pisano on the guitar as they play that descending riff. Looks like he is playing that descending in unison with the trumpets.
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
Regarding the technical aspects of playing Zorba.... I can't think of any other song in the 1962 - 1969 TJB repertoire that requires the level of technical skill as Zorba. Most songs are much less challenging from a technical aspect.
From my perspective as an experienced trumpet player, smoothly performing this song like this - especially at a high rate of speed - is an exercise in a high level of coordination of skills. Breath control, fingers, articulation, and a little range for the top part - all working with precision together - and made a little more complicated in regard to articulation by most likely using what is known to trumpet players as double tonguing - all these working precisely together at the tempo desired.
These skills are usually only developed as a result of much practice over a long period of time. Once achieved, they are only maintained by consistent and regular - even daily - practice. For example, the skill of high speed double tonguing rapidly diminishes if not regularly practiced. On rapidly moving passages, the player begins by practicing the notes slowly and gradually increasing speed only after complete accuracy is achieved.
As I understand it, Herb Alpert played all the trumpet parts on the TJB recordings and therefore most likely played Zorba on the recording heard on the Going Places album. However, in the recording studio, one can play the song over and over until there are no audible mistakes, and is sufficiently perfect for the recording. That opportunity does not exist in live performance. The pressure of having only one chance at perfection is great.
This, and another video of the song performed in London at the Royal Festival Hall in 1969, are the only live performances of this song I have ever seen. I would also not at all surprised by any "adjustments" to any song for that matter, that would make any live performance less, shall we say "risky". However, I have found from much experience that a very large percentage of audiences do not comprehend or notice various mistakes, even if those mistakes are significant.
From my perspective as an experienced trumpet player, smoothly performing this song like this - especially at a high rate of speed - is an exercise in a high level of coordination of skills. Breath control, fingers, articulation, and a little range for the top part - all working with precision together - and made a little more complicated in regard to articulation by most likely using what is known to trumpet players as double tonguing - all these working precisely together at the tempo desired.
These skills are usually only developed as a result of much practice over a long period of time. Once achieved, they are only maintained by consistent and regular - even daily - practice. For example, the skill of high speed double tonguing rapidly diminishes if not regularly practiced. On rapidly moving passages, the player begins by practicing the notes slowly and gradually increasing speed only after complete accuracy is achieved.
As I understand it, Herb Alpert played all the trumpet parts on the TJB recordings and therefore most likely played Zorba on the recording heard on the Going Places album. However, in the recording studio, one can play the song over and over until there are no audible mistakes, and is sufficiently perfect for the recording. That opportunity does not exist in live performance. The pressure of having only one chance at perfection is great.
This, and another video of the song performed in London at the Royal Festival Hall in 1969, are the only live performances of this song I have ever seen. I would also not at all surprised by any "adjustments" to any song for that matter, that would make any live performance less, shall we say "risky". However, I have found from much experience that a very large percentage of audiences do not comprehend or notice various mistakes, even if those mistakes are significant.
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With today's abilities to analyze recordings, I have figured out that the regular Tijuana Brass recording of "Zorba The Greek" features the same recording on both the first and second 'fast' parts of the song. It speaks to the difficulty of getting everything right that the song had to be looped a second time in order to sound right. I remember reading somewhere that the recording session for that one was many, many hours long until they got it perfect.
DAN BOLTON
Well-Known Member
17 hours, according to Chuck Champlin in the Greatest Hits liner notes.
Maybe that looping is the “studio wizardry“ that is referred to in the liner no it’s on the Going Places album!
JOv2
Well-Known Member
Nice to see you round these parts, Cap'n D! As always, your valuable insight is greatly enjoyed!
My experience of playing something consistent with Zorba would be to treat it like a daily technical exercise...to the point of it being essentially thoughtless (i.e., as natural as breathing: watch Herb play his part...clearly he's not thinking about playing each and every note; rather, he's thinking about the bigger picture -- making beautiful music). With your mind and embouchure set, once you launch away at the overtone, you basically run on autopilot. Though technically challenging, Zorba is actually straightforward to play. The key is to learn each run as an independent fragment (with the goal of reducing a flurry of notes down to just one musical fragment). Once the fragments are down cold, then assemble the fragments in song order and make it musical (i.e., make music out of technical exercises).
Great points.
My experience of playing something consistent with Zorba would be to treat it like a daily technical exercise...to the point of it being essentially thoughtless (i.e., as natural as breathing: watch Herb play his part...clearly he's not thinking about playing each and every note; rather, he's thinking about the bigger picture -- making beautiful music). With your mind and embouchure set, once you launch away at the overtone, you basically run on autopilot. Though technically challenging, Zorba is actually straightforward to play. The key is to learn each run as an independent fragment (with the goal of reducing a flurry of notes down to just one musical fragment). Once the fragments are down cold, then assemble the fragments in song order and make it musical (i.e., make music out of technical exercises).
JOv2
Well-Known Member
Aside from the opening slurring (which always stuck out to me), I never caught on. Herb was very smart to litter the 2nd prestissimo with all that hooting and hollering, which did a bang-up job of concealing that this was actually the 1st prestissimo recording re-used.
(Had Herb hired Bob Findley (but he was probably just a kid!) back in the day to nail the high part it would have taken the two of them 17 minutes.
)Captaindave
Well-Known Member
I agree...I would approach it like mastering a technical exercise. Practicing it very slowly, over and over, and gradually increasing the speed only after it has been mastered slowly.
JOv2
Well-Known Member
Precisely. Just like working through the Clarke Technical Studies book -- much of which I have memorized from playing through it time and again for 40+ years!
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