A&M's Use of Styrene for their 1960's & 70's 45's?

[jukeboxexpress]

David Cassidy's remake of The Lovin' Spoonful's "Daydream" was the first Bell Records 45 to be released in STEREO on the silver & black lettering logo back in mid 1973 but it did not charted in Billboard. Matt Clark Sanford, MI

Bell had been pressing stereo 45's, mostly on styrene, for radio stations when they adopted the "silver and black" label since atleast 1970, but these were on the red-on-white and red & black-on-white. Bell made a goof and some of Vicki Lawrences "The Night The Lights Went Out In Georgia" were made in stereo on the silver & black label. "Stereo" wasn't indicated on the label but there was an -S after the matrix number in the deadwax, just like the radio station copy. Almost all the Bell-distributed "Big Tree" 45's in 1972-3 were stereo. Most Bell 45 records were styrene, but some were vinyl. Most Bell records were pressed by Monarch Records, the 45's being styrene and the LP's being the same inferior vinyl that A&M specified.

 

[jukeboxexpress]

Most A&M 45's were pressed on styrene, many by Monarch Records, and Columbia Terra Haute or Pitman, into the 80's. We were lucky on the West Coast as A&M used Columbia Santa Maria for many of their records in the 70's to around 1981 when the plant closed. I say lucky because CSM pressed exclusively in vinyl. Besides being instantly identifiable as vinyl, there was an S1 or S2 in the deadwax. Monarch Records pressed some radio station A&M 45's in vinyl, but of the same inferior vinyl that they used for the A&M LP's. After CSM closed, a couple of years later, Monarch finally switched to vinyl, although the 45's & LP's were pretty thin.

 

[jukeboxexpress]

I remember getting some horrible styrenes on Elektra; I'm no anorak on this topic but the labels looked like they were pressed by the same plant RSO used. The better Elektra styrenes looked like they were made by Columbia. Another label whose styrenes I recall as generally good was ABC-Dunhill; they also made good vinyl singles. United Artists' were OK too. I've even had some hard-vinyl singles on Bell that looked like they might have been pressed by RCA-Victor, though like all Bell singles, they were in mono. Worst vinyl 45rpm pressings, hands-down, had to be Atlantic. I remember taking a brand-new Abba single out of the sleeve (wish I could remember which one!) and during the "softer" parts of the song, the crackling was louder than the music.

Many Atlantic 45's were pressed in styrene by Monarch Records, the same company that pressed most A&M records. These are identified by an "MO" after the matrix number on the label. Atlantic also used Specialty Record Corp to press records in vinyl for them, identified by an "SP" after the matrix number on the label. Atlantic eventually bought SRC. In the 70's, many ABC-Dunhill records were pressed in vinyl by Columbia Santa Maria. Elektra used a variety of pressing plant, Monarch, Allied & Columbia(styrene), CSM and SP(vinyl). United Artists usually used Monarch(styrene) and Capitol(vinyl). The Bell vinyl 45's were not pressed by RCA.

 

[jukeboxexpress]

The good thing about the styrene records was that they are flat and don't warp. This was great for the newer jukeboxes which tracked at lighter pressures, and many spent their service history in direct sunlight. I have many styrene records on my jukeboxes. Any record, no matter the construction material, can be damaged by back-cueing. Radio stations in the know used conical stylii. If they were changed often, both styrene and vinyl records lasted a long time. I have many well-used styrene radio station copies which are not cue-burned and pristine looking styrene & vinyl records which are cue-burned.

 

[Rudy]

Atlantic also used Specialty Record Corp to press records in vinyl for them, identified by an "SP" after the matrix number on the label.

Specialty is still pressing records, aren't they?

You would have loved an estate sale I went to a few weeks ago--there were thousands upon thousands of 45s of all types. This guy owned three (!) jukeboxes, and those were for sale also. Wish I'd kept some of the photos. I didn't check those out as I was on limited time. Sad thing is, he didn't take the best care of some of the records, and they were a bit ratty (VG- at best--visible scratches, very dirty, etc.). If the price were 25 cents each, I'd have bought several for my Victrola 45. They were $2 each, though--very overpriced for the condition. I wonder what they did with everything at the end of the sale....

 

[AM Matt]

Was Barry Manilow's "Mandy" (released on Bell 45) released in stereo in late 1974?? Matt Clark Sanford, MI

 

[Dave]

Manilow, as well as Tony Orlando, are the few who'd survived the Bell-to-Arista Records transition...



-- Dave

 

[JeffM]

Manilow, as well as Tony Orlando, are the few who'd survived the Bell-to-Arista Records transition...
-- Dave

Manilow may have been the only artist who survived the Bell-Arista transition at that company. Tony Orlando and Dawn moved to Elektra, though an album apparently made for Bell just before the change-over ("Skybird") was released on Arista, followed by at least one greatest-hits package.

Couple years ago I found in a second-hand store a Bell promo 45 that was the first version of "Could It Be Magic," by "Featherbed, Featuring Barry Manilow." It was produced and arranged by Tony Orlando, and sounded like his records; very upbeat and poppy, and somewhat Latin. Manilow reputedly hated the record. Still, I realized then that I had my hands on the "Vegas Rat Pack Summit" of cheez-ola!

At one time I had Bell stereo 45's (styrene) of the Partridge Family's "I Think I Love You" and Orlando's "My Sweet Gypsy Rose." Wish now I had kept them...

 

[JeffM]

The good thing about the styrene records was that they are flat and don't warp. This was great for the newer jukeboxes which tracked at lighter pressures, and many spent their service history in direct sunlight. I have many styrene records on my jukeboxes. Any record, no matter the construction material, can be damaged by back-cueing. Radio stations in the know used conical stylii. If they were changed often, both styrene and vinyl records lasted a long time. I have many well-used styrene radio station copies which are not cue-burned and pristine looking styrene & vinyl records which are cue-burned.

I have to disagree only slightly in that I have bought styrene 45's that were warped when brand new. (I particularly recall a copy of Linda Ronstadt's "That'll Be The Day" that really took my tone arm for a roller coaster ride.) Have also had both vinyl and styrene 45's that were pressed "off-center," and had a pronounced "wow." You could see the tone arm wavering left-to-right; I had this problem most frequently with Capitol products.

 

[Rudy]

I do know styrene was more easily broken. Or so says the unfortunate Carpenters single my mother snapped in half when I scratched the console hi-fi with it.

Just from a used record standpoint in terms of actually buying them, I've found more worn styrene singles than vinyl. It just depends on who has owned them. Any new ones I've bought (and it's very few--I am not a 45RPM singles buyer) are still immaculate, like new. Anyone who exercises similar care will get a good long lifetime out of them.

 

[jukeboxexpress]

Specialty is still pressing records, aren't they?

You would have loved an estate sale I went to a few weeks ago--there were thousands upon thousands of 45s of all types. This guy owned three (!) jukeboxes, and those were for sale also. Wish I'd kept some of the photos. I didn't check those out as I was on limited time. Sad thing is, he didn't take the best care of some of the records, and they were a bit ratty (VG- at best--visible scratches, very dirty, etc.). If the price were 25 cents each, I'd have bought several for my Victrola 45. They were $2 each, though--very overpriced for the condition. I wonder what they did with everything at the end of the sale....

Sounds like what my wife is going to have to do when I croak! I've got thousands upon thousands of recorded media and about 10 jukeboxes. 90% of my stuff is mint and it's all organized, inventoried and priced.

 

[jukeboxexpress]

I have to disagree only slightly in that I have bought styrene 45's that were warped when brand new. (I particularly recall a copy of Linda Ronstadt's "That'll Be The Day" that really took my tone arm for a roller coaster ride.) Have also had both vinyl and styrene 45's that were pressed "off-center," and had a pronounced "wow." You could see the tone arm wavering left-to-right; I had this problem most frequently with Capitol products.

It takes alot to warp a styrene record. I've seen new ones slightly warpped, which is probably coming out of the mold too soon. Last year, I laid a couple of styrene 45's out in my 100 degree California sun for an hour or so and they didn't warp.
Another defect of styrene records is that if they are cooled off too quickly in the mold, they get hairline surface cracks radiating outward from the label to the edge.
Off-center records, that's another subject. Like my original copy of Three Dog Night's "It Ain't Easy" LP, pressed by Monarch. Side one is OK, but side 2 is off-center.

 

[Harry]

I wonder what they did with everything at the end of the sale....

Some collector or dealer probably came along and offered a set amount for the whole bunch. That's what happened when we were clearing out stuff to move south. I'd acquired hundreds of albums from radio stations over the years and after weeding out those I didn't care for to the basement, I boxed those up and put them out at the yard sale. Sure enough, about halfway through, after selling maybe one or two for 50 cents or so, some guy came along and took the whole bunch for something like ten bucks. I was happy to get rid of them, and I'm sure he didn't get any kind of treasures, at least nothing I valued. But they say one man's trash...

Harry

 

[jukeboxexpress]

Was Barry Manilow's "Mandy" (released on Bell 45) released in stereo in late 1974?? Matt Clark Sanford, MI

Yes, it was released to radio stations on a stereo/mono promotional 45. It was also released in stereo in Canada on the Bell label, pressed on vinyl, backed with a stereo version of "Something's Coming Up"(Bell 45613-X).

 

[jukeboxexpress]

Manilow may have been the only artist who survived the Bell-Arista transition at that company. Tony Orlando and Dawn moved to Elektra, though an album apparently made for Bell just before the change-over ("Skybird") was released on Arista, followed by at least one greatest-hits package.

Couple years ago I found in a second-hand store a Bell promo 45 that was the first version of "Could It Be Magic," by "Featherbed, Featuring Barry Manilow." It was produced and arranged by Tony Orlando, and sounded like his records; very upbeat and poppy, and somewhat Latin. Manilow reputedly hated the record. Still, I realized then that I had my hands on the "Vegas Rat Pack Summit" of cheez-ola!

At one time I had Bell stereo 45's (styrene) of the Partridge Family's "I Think I Love You" and Orlando's "My Sweet Gypsy Rose." Wish now I had kept them...

There were more than a few artists that survived the Bell to Arista changeover. Like Melissa Manchester, The Monkees(re-issues), Gary Glitter, Suzi Quatro, and maybe their biggest artist outside of Manilow-Bay City Rollers.

When Clive Davis took over the Columbia Pictures record labels, as he and Tony Orlando had worked together at CBS Records, maybe they didn't get along so Tony moved on.

 

[jukeboxexpress]

Some collector or dealer probably came along and offered a set amount for the whole bunch. That's what happened when we were clearing out stuff to move south. I'd acquired hundreds of albums from radio stations over the years and after weeding out those I didn't care for to the basement, I boxed those up and put them out at the yard sale. Sure enough, about halfway through, after selling maybe one or two for 50 cents or so, some guy came along and took the whole bunch for something like ten bucks. I was happy to get rid of them, and I'm sure he didn't get any kind of treasures, at least nothing I valued. But they say one man's trash...

Harry

I've got a couple thousand mostly new 45's with dupes that I would love to get 25 cents each for.

 

[JeffM]

There were more than a few artists that survived the Bell to Arista changeover. Like Melissa Manchester, The Monkees(re-issues), Gary Glitter, Suzi Quatro, and maybe their biggest artist outside of Manilow-Bay City Rollers.

When Clive Davis took over the Columbia Pictures record labels, as he and Tony Orlando had worked together at CBS Records, maybe they didn't get along so Tony moved on.

You may be right about Melissa Manchester; though the Rollers as far as I know appeared on the Bell label only in the UK and Europe before their records being released here, all their US releases were on Arista only. I'm not sure whether the Monkees re-issues should be included; those were owned by Columbia Pictures/Screen Gems, who originally released them on their Colgems label. Columbia brought them, along with their previous Colpix label, into the deal when they bought Bell; and later sold them to BMG along with the rest of Arista. I'd also guess that the late Whitney Houston, rather than the Rollers, was Arista's biggest-selling artist. They also enjoyed great success with Kenny G, Dionne Warwick and others.

Thanks also for the pointer on styrene records being warped by coming out of the mold too quickly; that may indeed be the cause as the styrene warps I've seen have been in the nature of a sharp up-and-down "wrinkle," rather than the see-saw-like warps of vinyl records.

 

[Rudy]

Some collector or dealer probably came along and offered a set amount for the whole bunch.

I'm thinking that also. I've noticed, though, that if an estate sale company runs the same, they usually overprice things quite a bit. I've seen dirt common LPs that rarely saw the inside of a record jacket have outrageous prices tagged on them. The problem is that these companies think condition means nothing since records are popular again. Most of the LPs at this particular sale were VG- at best, and most were worse. The LPs could have been a dollar each, and most of the 45s of say were worth a quarter based on condition. Another couple of sellers commented on the poor condition of the lot and gave up looking. That is why I wonder if the estate sale company would take a very low ball offer, as they don't tend to deal like private sellers would.

I'm betting the big dealers hit that sale first thing in the morning. They are used to buying out large collections.

 

[JeffM]

We're getting off topic here, but I believe another factor is people who get hold of a price guide book and assume everything they have must be worth the top-dollar price, regardless of condition. Some of these books also post (in my opinion) wildly excessive values on relatively common records.

Just recently I bought a 45 (made of styrene, we're back on topic!) from a seller on a web site (NOT EBAY.) The seller listed the record as in Mint Minus condition. He cashed in my payment, shipped the disc, then sent me a message saying the record was not in as good condition as advertised! I asked him why he did this instead of consulting me first about the condition. He replied with a jumbled story about "ebay wanted their money right away" and some insulting comments about me, and said that if I wasn't serious about wanting it, I should just mark it "return to sender" and let the post office do the rest.

Well, I got the disc and was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, so I opened it and played it. It had a large visible (and audible) scratch on side 1, crackly sound on both sides, writing on the label, and for some reason an indescribably gamey odor! Mint minus no, but definitely minus. I told him I was repacking the record and mailing it back at my own expense for a refund, and got another snotty email from him. Will wait and see what happens. (Meanwhile, have ordered another copy from another dealer, and hope his VG+ is better than that jerk's "mint.")

 

[jukeboxexpress]

I'm thinking that also. I've noticed, though, that if an estate sale company runs the same, they usually overprice things quite a bit. I've seen dirt common LPs that rarely saw the inside of a record jacket have outrageous prices tagged on them. The problem is that these companies think condition means nothing since records are popular again. Most of the LPs at this particular sale were VG- at best, and most were worse. The LPs could have been a dollar each, and most of the 45s of say were worth a quarter based on condition. Another couple of sellers commented on the poor condition of the lot and gave up looking. That is why I wonder if the estate sale company would take a very low ball offer, as they don't tend to deal like private sellers would.

I'm betting the big dealers hit that sale first thing in the morning. They are used to buying out large collections.

Sounds like sellers on eBay.lol

 

[jukeboxexpress]

We're getting off topic here, but I believe another factor is people who get hold of a price guide book and assume everything they have must be worth the top-dollar price, regardless of condition. Some of these books also post (in my opinion) wildly excessive values on relatively common records.

Just recently I bought a 45 (made of styrene, we're back on topic!) from a seller on a web site (NOT EBAY.) The seller listed the record as in Mint Minus condition. He cashed in my payment, shipped the disc, then sent me a message saying the record was not in as good condition as advertised! I asked him why he did this instead of consulting me first about the condition. He replied with a jumbled story about "ebay wanted their money right away" and some insulting comments about me, and said that if I wasn't serious about wanting it, I should just mark it "return to sender" and let the post office do the rest.

Well, I got the disc and was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, so I opened it and played it. It had a large visible (and audible) scratch on side 1, crackly sound on both sides, writing on the label, and for some reason an indescribably gamey odor! Mint minus no, but definitely minus. I told him I was repacking the record and mailing it back at my own expense for a refund, and got another snotty email from him. Will wait and see what happens. (Meanwhile, have ordered another copy from another dealer, and hope his VG+ is better than that jerk's "mint.")

This seller sounds like Les Harris in Texas to me.
As far as price guides are concerned, they are just that, guides. Most of the guides I've seen have notations in the front section stating that the prices listed are "retail" prices that you might expect to pay in a retail store. I can't think of many records that are separated by whether they are made of styrene or vinyl. Maybe I am a little predjudice, being an acknowledge contributor to Jerry Osborne's "Rockin' Records" and "Cyberguides", but those sources are fairly accurate. In the case of "Cyberguides", it is an internet subscription service which is updated weekly. Prices are established from actual sales and are not arbitrary. But yes I agree, especially with eBay record sales, it seems that many times common records go for exhorbident prices and truly rare "high dollar" records go for peanuts.

 

[JeffM]

This seller sounds like Les Harris in Texas to me.

In all fairness, and without "naming names," the seller in question lives in Idaho. I've never done business with Mr. Harris (but thanks for the "heads up.") Some examples of the price-guide syndrome I've seen lately included some LPS obviously left over from a garage sale that turned up in the local Goodwill with the original "seller's" price tags still attached; like a 60's Billy Vaughn in barely average condition tagged "RARE! $13." Another "thrift shop" here is convinced (or deluded?) that all old vinyls are rare collectibles; $5. for the 1953 Women's Barber Shop Quartet Championships, anyone??

The used-record shop here (described in my post titled "I Love Record Collecting, But...") has LPS priced at $20-25 each that I've been able to find on ebay for $3-4 each. Like any other field of collecting, if you're patient, you can find bargains.

 

[Rudy]

But yes I agree, especially with eBay record sales, it seems that many times common records go for exhorbident prices and truly rare "high dollar" records go for peanuts.

We had a classic example here several years ago. The TJB's Lonely Bull album. $75 eBay, with $9 shipping. Locally at the time I could have purchased three copies of that LP for the shipping cost alone.

I think a lot of it has to do with vinyl's recent resurgence in popularity, plus the twisted idea that "all the hipsters are doing it". (Can you tell I despise hipsters? ) I think what really boggles my mind is how clueless most big box stores are about vinyl. At one store locally, they were stocking a half dozen (yes, only a half dozen) classic rock titles on 180 gram vinyl, right next to the display of those horrid Crosley record shredders. Or, we have those stores where the vinyl is stuck in a bin way in the back, and it rarely sells since they're priced too high and not well displayed. There was even a non-music store selling records (some clothing store chain maybe?), just because the hipsters shop there. Those types of buyers are generally quite dumb, buying something only because all their other hipster buddies own some. They wouldn't know a good or valuable pressing from a banged-up record club version--it's just owning something for the sake of owning it. So they can be cool, too.

What I do find enlightening is that some younger buyers are in the record stores now, building their collections on vinyl. I encountered one young 20-something girl talking actively with the store owner at a nearby store...he was asking her about titles for artists she was interested in, and she knew full well if she had it or not, and whether her copy was in good shape or not. She really knew her vinyl, and her music (a real music lover, in other words) and reminded me of when I was that age myself, hopping over to Car City Classics a couple nights per week, scouring the bins and taking chances on music I may have never heard before.

BTW, I've been working on another site devoted entirely to record collecting--still in the planning stages but it'll hopefully be helpful to those who collect. There's a lot of good info right here in this thread.

 

[JeffM]

When it comes to being hip, I'm "The Man From Uncool." I've never particularly cared about first pressings, record-club versions, etc; if the disc is in good shape, the price is reasonable, and I like the music, good enough for me.

Like too many other things these days, the stereo market seems highly polarized. You have the high-end audiophile stuff that costs more than a car at one end, and the cutesy Crosley/Philco junkboxes at the other, and nothing much in between. A couple I know used to buy Crosleys until they realized they had four broken ones piled up in their garage. Remember the Sears catalogs that offered products as "good," "better," and "best?" "Good" wasn't bad, and "best" really was excellent. Maybe an idea whose time has come...again.

If some manufacturer could make a unit twice as good as a Crosley, that lasts twice as long, I am convinced buyers would pay twice the price if they knew they were getting their money's worth. My own stereo outfit is a cats-and-dogs combination of old stuff, much of it acquired second-hand; a Sony turntable, Kenwood amp and tuner, Zenith Allegro speakers, a Pioneer tape deck, and (recently added) my sister's Philips CD recorder (I'm still figuring out how to hook that up...)

But one of the few useful things I've read at one of those audio-snob blog sites was this...in fact, it's downright philosophical..."The only person who has to be satisfied with your sound system is you."

 

[Rudy]

I am first to admit my system is climbing more and more towards "high end" than what most folks have, but I know that it is not a pursuit for everyone. It depends on what goal someone is after when wanting to reproduce music at home. I will add that there are many who say vinyl doesn't sound good at all, but they've never heard it at its fullest potential. And some who do hear it on a good system can easily hear the difference, even with an untrained ear. I had a non-audiophile friend over who commented on how lifelike Van Morrison's Moondance LP (180 gram pressing, mastered by Steve Hoffman and Kevin Gray) sounded in comparison to the CD version I had. The real irony is that while my sources and preamp and amplifier are high(er)-end, I am hearing these differences through a pair of speakers I have owned since 1979, costing me all of $280/pair! (And that was a lot of lawn-mowing money back then!)

There are some decent "entry-level" turntables out there that don't break the bank and sound quite good. And a lot of the turntables from the late 70s and early 80s, that aren't too plasticky, are very good value for the dollar: solid builds, durable, well made. Those older turntables fill the gap between today's better sounding "entry level" (around $300) and the cheaper mass-market brands which today are not all that good. (They all look good and high-tech, but that is just the modern marvel of injection-molded plastic. ) There was some Kickstarter company that brought out a cheaper entry-level turntable (I think the price point was around $150), but I'm more fond of brands that have been around a while and have reputable companies behind them. Cartridges are very easy to find, with prices ranging from $25 up to the stratosphere.

So there is some leeway, but you have to be a diligent shopper to find something to fit a budget that will also last for awhile. I'm trying to find my daughter a good, used TT built like a tank that she can build a collection with.