Larry Levine and Gold Star

[Numero Cinco]

As a newcomer, I have a feeling that these subjects have probably been explored exhaustively years ago, and—if so—I'd be happy for you veterans to link me to the proper places; nevertheless:

1. Can someone fill me in on Larry Levine? My untrained but appreciative ear tells me that, in addition to Alpert's creative arrangements and his group's professionalism, Levine had much to do with the TJB's distinctive sound.

2. Am I the only listener who thinks the earlier albums, like South of the Border, have a livelier acoustic than, say, Herb Alpert's Ninth? Did that have anything to do with their being recorded as Gold Star, or was all the reverb added by the sound mixer, irrespective of the studio in which it was recorded?

 

[W.B.]

As to the answer for your Question #1: Mr. Levine also engineered certain of the classic Phil Spector productions (most notably The Righteous Brothers' "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'" and "Unchained Melody," and the 1969 Sonny Charles single "Black Pearl"). He apparently went over to A&M studios by the end of the '60's (if I'm mistaken, please clarify for me), and was credited as engineer on Mr. Alpert's 1973 "Last Tango In Paris" single. He could very well have played a part in the distinctive sound of both individuals.

As for #2: I wouldn't tell you as to the difference between such albums as I don't have them in my collection . . . but I'd read a new bio on Burt Bacharach that claimed that Mr. Alpert's chart-topping recording of "This Guy's In Love With You" had also been made at Gold Star -- this, after A&M moved to the old Chaplin studios.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

As a newcomer, I have a feeling that these subjects have probably been explored exhaustively years ago, and—if so—I'd be happy for you veterans to link me to the proper places; nevertheless:

1. Can someone fill me in on Larry Levine? My untrained but appreciative ear tells me that, in addition to Alpert's creative arrangements and his group's professionalism, Levine had much to do with the TJB's distinctive sound.

2. Am I the only listener who thinks the earlier albums, like South of the Border, have a livelier acoustic than, say, Herb Alpert's Ninth? Did that have anything to do with their being recorded as Gold Star, or was all the reverb added by the sound mixer, irrespective of the studio in which it was recorded?

I think that you have to take into account the fact that the sound had changed when you compare albums. Techniques improve, instrumentation changes, the type of music being played, the overall effect the artist was going for...all these ideas and a lot more have to be accounted for. Larry Levine had to use different recording techniques to keep up with Herb's ideas, so the sound or accoustic will naturally be different from album to album.

Maybe the first couple of albums had a "brighter" sound, but I think that a lot of that was due to the "wall of sound" that Phil Spector invented. The jazzier "combo"style of the later Brass wouldn't lend itself to such a technique.

I'm not an engineer, and my experience qwith a recording console is limited to my Fostex that sits atop my Roland...but I don't think that the sound would be much different no matter where I played...but I don't have to set up mikes or anything.

Gold Star was evidently a magical place where some of the greatest recordings of all time were made, but I always thought that it had as much to do with who was playing and recording than the building itself, which is a strip mall now, I believe...should be a museum, like Studio B in Nashville...which I've seen, and played in...almost felt Elvis' ghost...maybe there WERE special vibes at Gold Star.....


Dan

 

[Rudy]

As to the answer for your Question #1: Mr. Levine also engineered certain of the classic Phil Spector productions (most notably The Righteous Brothers' "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'" and "Unchained Melody," and the 1969 Sonny Charles single "Black Pearl"). He apparently went over to A&M studios by the end of the '60's (if I'm mistaken, please clarify for me), and was credited as engineer on Mr. Alpert's 1973 "Last Tango In Paris" single. He could very well have played a part in the distinctive sound of both individuals.

As for #2: I wouldn't tell you as to the difference between such albums as I don't have them in my collection . . . but I'd read a new bio on Burt Bacharach that claimed that Mr. Alpert's chart-topping recording of "This Guy's In Love With You" had also been made at Gold Star -- this, after A&M moved to the old Chaplin studios.

According to album credits, the TJB still used Gold Star even after A&M had its own studios. Larry Levine engineered most (if not all) of the TJB albums. The most famous thing about Gold Star, other than being Spector's stomping ground, was that echo chamber. It gave Spector that echoey Wall Of Sound, and it also gave that huge sound to South Of The Border. In technical terms, there were better studios than Gold Star, but some of those studios also didn't have the "sound" that Gold Star did.

There may have been some restrictions on studio availability, too. I am looking at some notes about the recording of the Chris Montez tracks, "Call Me" and "The More I See You". For "Call Me", most of it was recorded at Gold Star, but the vocals and hand claps were done at RCA Studios. "The More I See You" was done completely at Gold Star (three track recording by Larry Levine), but the rest of the album was done at Sunset Sound and engineered by Bruce Botnick.

 

[Tom]

One more credit I'd like to give to engineer extraordinare Larry Levine. On all of the Herb Alpert albums he engineered at both Gold Star and The Chaplin Studios, the sound is timeless. I mean it's clear and nearly impossible to tell what decade, let along, what year the sessions were done. I'm sure many of you have noticed, as I have, that some music in the 60's (especially) just sound "old" whether the audio is not clear, sounds somewhat disorted or bleeds, whatever. You can just tell it sounds old. With most of, if not all, the Larry Levine sessions, they are relatively crystal clear with good separation. From what I have read and heard about Larry Levin, he is a stickler for perfect audio. He knows exactly how to mike a session, right down to every piece of the drum set. My case and point is, listen to any of the Alpert albums from "L-B" to "WCAOD" and you hear good clean audio. Sounds like they were recorded yesterday, IMHO. WCAOD continues to impress me nearly 40 years later. I was listening to it just this morning. It's just darned clean and good. The man knows audio. Thanks a bunch Larry. You're the best.

Tom

 

[Captain Bacardi]

According to album credits, the TJB still used Gold Star even after A&M had its own studios.

If I remember right, after the acquisition of the Chaplin studios Herb & Jerry still had to rebuild inside to make it more of a recording studio, rather than a movie studio. So they still had to use Gold Star until the A&M studios were ready to use.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Rudy]

Larry Levine came on board with South Of The Border. Before that, Ben Jordan and Charles Underwood engineered the earlier albums.

IMHO, Border is one of the best sounding TJB albums. I have a feeling it was recorded simply, without any bounces (or minimal bounces), to create overdubs.

 

[Numero Cinco]

My thanks to everuone for the replies, which are informative. A few follow-ups questions:

D.B.: Maybe the first couple of albums had a "brighter" sound, but I think that a lot of that was due to the "wall of sound" that Phil Spector invented.

Rudy: The most famous thing about Gold Star, other than being Spector's stomping ground, was that echo chamber. It gave Spector that echoey Wall Of Sound, and it also gave that huge sound to South Of The Border.

These and many other references on other threads have spoken of Phil Spector's "Wall of Sound." Exactly what are we talking about here? A recording technique? Sound mixing? A physical structure with special acoustic installations?

That "huge sound" is one of the things that, in addition to Herb's bright technique and inventive arrangements, makes South of the Border one of my favorite albums. It may not have had definitive hits, but I think it simply sounds terrific.

Dan: Gold Star was evidently a magical place where some of the greatest recordings of all time were made, but I always thought that it had as much to do with who was playing and recording than the building itself, which is a strip mall now . . .

Well, that's just what America needed: the loss of a classic in popular music so that we could get another strip mall. It's too despicable for words.

Tom: My case and point is, listen to any of the Alpert albums . . and you hear good clean audio. Sounds like they were recorded yesterday, IMHO. WCAOD continues to impress me nearly 40 years later. I was listening to it just this morning. It's just darned clean and good. The man knows audio. Thanks a bunch Larry. You're the best.

I agree entirely. I can only hope that Mr. Levine has trained a new generation of engineers who will carry the torch after him.

Rudy: I have a feeling [SOTB] was recorded simply, without any bounces (or minimal bounces), to create overdubs.

I think I know what an overdub is—Alpert dubbing himself over a previously recorded track(?)—but what is a "bounce"?

Thanks, fellas—

 

[Rudy]

These and many other references on other threads have spoken of Phil Spector's "Wall of Sound." Exactly what are we talking about here? A recording technique? Sound mixing? A physical structure with special acoustic installations?

I think I know what an overdub is—Alpert dubbing himself over a previously recorded track(?)—but what is a "bounce"?

"Wall of Sound" was more of a production technique. Someone might be able to explain it better than I can, but part of that sound was Gold Star's renonwed reverb chamber. This is nothing more than a concrete room, built to specific dimensions, with both a speaker and a microphone in it. It was a roomy, slightly bright sounding reverb that gives that huge sound to South Of The Border. There are other reverb methods: a cheaper reverb system might be a series of long springs in an oil bath (heck, some guitar amps simply had springs in them). Another common reverb system was a large metal plate in an oil bath--Capitol used this in their studios. Thing is, these different reverb methods had different rates of decay, and some sounded more natural than others.

So the reverb did play a part in the "Wall of Sound", but so did Spector's use of instrumentation and backing vocals, and the way the recording was mixed. While South Of The Border had a similar sound, the B-side tune "Mexican Drummer Man" (which had vocals) was the closest to the Wall of Sound that the TJB would get.

Bouncing: back in the 60's, the best "multitrack" tape recorders they had back then would have been either three- or four-track. Gold Star had a three-track, and if they needed to record more parts, they'd have to mix down those three tracks into one or two tracks and record them to another three-track recorder. That's a "bounce". With that extra track or two freed up, they were able to record another part or two. With each bounce, though, there was a loss of quality, a generational loss of signal and an increase in tape noise. (This was in the days before noise reduction like Dolby A or dbx.) With the advent of 8-, 16- and even 24- and 32-track machines, bouncing became unnecessary.

 

[Dave]

I found on good Web Site on this Legendary Hollywood Recording Studio, Right Heer:

http://goldstarrecordingstudios.com/

Dave

...Recording Studio Finder, online...

 

[Tom]

Rudy,

Thanks so much for the info on the engineers on "The Lonely Bull" recording session. I apologize for the error. I do recall Charles Underwood's name listed on the album. I very much appreciate your giving me the correct info. That's another thing I love about A&M Corner. People who know the correct/accurate info and pass it along to those of us who have posted inaccurate information. The more I know, the more I know I don't know. I mean that sincerely. Thanks again.

Tom

 

[W.B.]

I also recall that The Lonely Bull LP listed a "Conway Recording Studios" as the recording venue thereof. Whatever happened to that outfit, pray tell?

 

[Rudy]

Probably went the way of Gold Star, albeit earlier.

 

[Dave]

Au Contoir...it STILL EXISTS! 'Least according to the link below:

http://www.worldstudio.com/studios/conway.htm

Dave

...who HAS seen the latest Barbra Streisand and Bette Midler CD's recorded there, as well as Felix Cavaliere's DREAMS IN MOTION...

 

[manifan]

Another techique used back then -- and may still be used today -- is "sweetening"--speeding up a recording just a bit to give it a "brighter" sound. Don't know if this was used on the TJB recordings, but it's a possibility.

Elena

 

[Dave]

Another techique used back then -- and may still be used today -- is "sweetening"--speeding up a recording just a bit to give it a "brighter" sound. Don't know if this was used on the TJB recordings, but it's a possibility.

Elena

"Sweetening" I have heard of had been done on later recordings, via "The Aphex Aural Exciter". Or maybe that's the name the recording process had eventually been given.

Dave

...who hasn't seen that recording audio enhancement used for years and should find out the FIRST and LAST recodings which have used it...

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Another techique used back then -- and may still be used today -- is "sweetening"--speeding up a recording just a bit to give it a "brighter" sound. Don't know if this was used on the TJB recordings, but it's a possibility.

There was a discussion similar to this concerning the 45 of "Love So Fine", which is just a hair faster than the LP version and a two-second difference.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Mr Bill]

Sweetening may have meant "speed up slight;y" at one time but to today's modern audio workstation it means so much more. Especially when used to describe film and television audio production. Too much to go into in this forum!

--Mr Bill

 

[Aqua do Brasil]

1. Can someone fill me in on Larry Levine? My untrained but appreciative ear tells me that, in addition to Alpert's creative arrangements and his group's professionalism, Levine had much to do with the TJB's distinctive sound.


Dear Forum members,

A quote from Larry Levine:

‘In 1966 Herb recorded ‘Spanish Flea’ but that wasn’t the
original title. The reason that got named ‘Spanish Flea’
was that I was too embarrassed to put ‘Spanish Fly’ as a slate on tape.
–Larry Levine.


All the best,
Aqua do Brasil

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Dear Forum members,

A quote from Larry Levine:

‘In 1966 Herb recorded ‘Spanish Flea’ but that wasn’t the
original title. The reason that got named ‘Spanish Flea’
was that I was too embarrassed to put ‘Spanish Fly’ as a slate on tape.
–Larry Levine.


All the best,
Aqua do Brasil

I'd heard that Julius Wechter wanted to call the tune SPANISH FLY, but Herb said, " I don't think so..." Like in so many other instances, there's probably a lot of truth in both stories...maybe today nobody would balk at a title like that, but in 1966...well...it was a different era.


Dan, wondering what the lyrics would be for a song titled SPANISH FLY...but not really wanting to find out...