When Bad Mastering Happens to Good Albums

[Brasil_Nut]

You're giving me a headache. I like the stereo separation on #2, but #1 sounds cleaner to me. Ideally I would have #2's stereo separation with #1's sound quality. 'Nuff sed...

Ditto!

Jon

 

[Kathy]

I'm one of the ones who voted for #2, too. Almost a no-brainer!

Compared the soundclips to both my original-issue Capitol vinyl (with the top o' the tower and all...) and the reissue vinyl, as well. DON'T have the CD, yet... But naturally, the Stereo-Seperation of old is back "in" again and its authenticity "digitally reinvented"!

Kat

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Thanks Rudy for the scan, That's look like that LP might be hard to locate. I'll have to check that out. I assume you must have dial up? With my cable, it takes me seconds to send a large file.

Edit: Un-related-Why is there so much blank space below my post? Sometimes there is extra space & other times there isn't. It's like I'm hitting the enter key alot but I'm not.

 

[Rudy]

Hi Chris!

No, I'm on cable. 3Mbps inbound, but only 190k outbound. Sucks really. But the problem is that some mailboxes won't accept messages over a certain size. The mailboxes I have set up will only accept 500k or 1MB attachments (depending on the mailbox), although I do reserve one for attachment use only that has no limits on it.

I don't think the Cole/Shearing should be too hard to find. There are dozens listed on GEMM, plus if you keep checking your local used vinyl outlets, I'm sure decent copies will turn up eventually.

No idea about the space under posts. In fact, I think this board trims off any stray carriage returns or space/tab characters after the last character of the post.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Hey Rudy, I was at my local record dealer today & looked for this LP Nat King Cole sings/George Shearing plays. I got sorta close but could not find this LP. However, go figure...what I did find was a bonus Lp that the sleave read, "As a free bonus for purchasing the Nat King Cole sings/George Shearing plays LP you will receive the enclosed bonus Lp with 6 tracks (side a) of Nat songs & (side b) George Shearing 6 tracks. I'm assuming these are different tracks than the original Lp. I listening to it on the playing station in the store. The price was $7.00 & was not in a Lp cover but in a plain Lp sleeve, but I didn't get it.

Was hoping I would find the original one with that song Pick Yourself Up

...the hunt is never over...

 

[Rudy]

That may have been some kind of promotional giveaway. Probably just random tracks from both of their Capitol catalogs. Neat item though! Knowing me I'd probably have picked it up even if I already had the tracks.

GEMM has a lot of copies listed, anywhere from $6 and up. I'm hoping to find one locally, or two actually, since I want to hear both the mono and stereo versions.

http://www.amcorner.com/gemm

 

[jww]

I also noticed the same trend. Many artists are re-releasing their output for a second time in the cd-age, ie) Atlantic Artists (Yes, CSN, etc) and other Capitol artists (such as the Beach Boys). To my ears, also, these 2nd generations discs do not sound as good as those released in the early 90s/late 80s. I am thinking especially of the Beach Boys two-fers (circa 1990 vs. 2001/02 reissues) and the recent Yes reissues (mid 90s vs. 2003). To second all that has been said, Louder isn't always Better, and cds were always supposedly noiseless (read less hiss,pops,etc.) originally anyway, without adding a Noise-gate, hi-freq. clipping to the proceedings....Just my 0.02 anyhow....JW

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

A visit to my local record dealer suprised me with a find today & thought I'd share. There were these 6 or 7 crates of LP's that I had not gone through before, each crate held about 50 Lp's. Some pretty used & mostly with worn covers. I would say these bins held Lp's from the 2.00 to 20.00 range. This record store is pretty much in order & you'll find what you need usually in the correct area. He has a section for just about anything, from pictured Lp's to Japan exclusive pressing, to Quads to New Inventory he just got turned in. Then of course there is the usual A-Z area.

Anyway, I was having the time of my life flipping through the Lp covers to see what I might find. First I found Bless the Beast & Children (I was pretty suprised) a Carpenters fan here on this forum provided me with a Mp3 of this rare track but I knew that I had to get the original LP sometime before I die. Well I found it, yes, it's used, but sound is still great about a very good +, the cover is in good condition but has some yellow spots of stains I guess from storage. Cost me $10.00 ( I didn't care cause I wanted it) This track is not available on Cd & is a slightly diff version from the version found on the Carpenters Lp.

The next was something I had not expected. On one of the last crates, flipped to the end of the crate I found something I knew shouldn't be there. Nat King Cole/George Shearing Original Master Recording. (This dealer had a certain area for these) So I bring this up & tell him where I found this & ask him what he would sell this to me for. (Holding my breath inside but not showing it) He looks in a couple record books, while he is searching, I ask him to play it on his system (which is this really cool 70's system he was telling me more about today of which I also talked to him about my Carpenters Quad LP Singles I recently purchased-but that's another story) Hee Hee.

So it's playing & I'm blown away at the sound, this guys got like 5 speakers througout his store & listening, I search for more stuff. Few more minutes & he tells me that yes that was not in the right place & he was looking for that & didn't know where it was. (you see these crates were all like under a large table so they are not the easiest to get to & because of there weight, I'd say hardly anyone has gotton to these) So he says that he will sell it to me for $60.00. After about 10 more minutes of listening to this, I head back to the front & say I'll take it. He says, darn I was hoping you wouldn't cause I was gonna keep this one, he says it kind hard to find, & after even him hearing this play, says it is a mint opened copy. I'd been looking for this Lp since this post. This was kinda steep & I hope I didn't pay too much.

So there you have it, my record shopping day today. Hree are pics I snaped when I got home...for your viewing.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Oh I forgot to mention that I held the LP up to a light, you can see through it. So this would be virgin pressing Lp? I noticed the label says pressed in Japan.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Well I've had some time tonight to give this a spin twice on both sides, with the use of my Sony headphones. After running through this 2 times, I have to say this is a really really nice album. I am really enjoying this one. The sound is quite amazing. Playing with my balance control, I'm finding that Shearing is prominetly on the right side, with Cole prominently on the left, although when moved to the middle with my balance control he sounds centered. It's cool to turn it all the way to the left & I hear Cole only with some strings. All the way to the right is Shearing's piano with a faint Cole in the background. Man, the warmth I am getting from the Lp is incredible. I wish all my Lp's sounded this good. I swear it sounds like I am in the recording studio with my headphones on listening to the playback. This is the way music was meant to be heard.

 

[Rudy]

Chris--I was just going to mention that I got the same Mobile Fidelity version about a month ago. $60 isn't bad...I paid just over $50 (without shipping) for mine recently, off of eBay yet. And I've seen them sell for MUCH more. That price is right in the ballpark.

My first LP copy on a Capitol yellow/red label was noisy. The CD was awful, not even worthy of a drink coaster. (This is the recent Blue Note remaster which was badly remixed, not the original CD which was, I hear, closer to the LP version.) A couple of months ago I found it on a black 'rainbow' label Capitol that is a bit cleaner. I'd watched quite a few MoFi copies go by on eBay for $60, $75, even more. I could have been patient and try to win it lower, but hey, life is short, and I figured that even if I got it for $50, I could turn it around and sell it for $50 or more and not lose anything.

On mine, the first track on each side is a bit noisy, but it sounds to me like it needs a trip to the record vacuum. I've never heard noisy MoFi vinyl from the factory, and in fact, I have a couple other used MoFi LPs I purchased recently that were similarly noisy. But beyond that, this LP is exquisite! It sounds a bit cleaner and clearer than the Capitol version I have--the vinyl is definitely quieter.

I've heard that the strings on this LP were actually out of phase, which explains why they may sound "wide" over speakers (and through headphone). But you're correct--you hear Cole to the left of center, and the Shearing quintet to the right of center. The mono version supposedly has a better mix, but I haven't picked one up yet for comparison. (Thankfully it's an album new enough to be stereo, and not the dreaded "Duophonic" fake-stereo that Capitol used for their old pre-stereo recordings.)

There is another Cole album I'm interested in buying when it is released. Just One Of Those Things was an album he recorded with Billy May's big band/orchestra. I'd picked it up a couple of years ago but never gave it a close listen. Steve Hoffman just remixed it for S&P Records and it will probably be released within the next few months, vinyl only. (Capitol won't license it for CD or SACD, unfortunately.) The reason Steve remixed it was because, back then, Capitol recorded to three-track, and when they mixed the stereo version, they actually got two of the three tracks onto the recording out of phase!! I couldn't believe it when I listened more closely--I even hit the "mono" button and Cole's voice, and most of the orchestra, just about vanished! And it has been this way on the stereo master since 1959! Steve did a very "retro" mix of it over at Capitol studios--he used a touch of the reverb from two of Capitol's famed echo chambers (one for Nat's voice, the other for the orchestra tracks), and if it's like his work on the Peggy Lee albums, it will still sound like the original in balance but here, the phase will be correct and it won't be drenched in too much reverb.

But even like the Cole/Shearing album, these big studios made some nice recordings in their day. I guarantee you'll get a lot of listening pleasure out of that Mobile Fidelity LP, just like I have. It's not cheap, but musically it's a great pairing of two of Capitol's most popular artists, and even if it IS a little heavy on reverb, that wonderful warm sound of Capitol's studios makes it sound that much better.

Can't wait to clean up the vinyl and do a needle drop for the car.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

And I've seen them sell for MUCH more. That price is right in the ballpark.

I thought I remember emailing you that I saw this on ebay a while back & it was alot higher than $60.00, so I took that memory into consideration before I bought this. Now that I have it, I am glad I got it.

On mine, the first track on each side is a bit noisy, but it sounds to me like it needs a trip to the record vacuum.

Sorry to hear yours is noisy on the first track. I put mine through my record doctor twice before playing it, gave it a really good wash. Your first 2 tracks being noisy..I wonder if that could be because of the oils in peoples hands from picking it up in that spot? Just a thought? This copy I have is perfect all through, I hear very very little needle noise, I'm really blown away at how awesome it sounds, putting it into words is always hard to describe.

I also can't wait to get this to CD so I can enjoy this in my car. I have so many Lp's I have bought in the past 6 months, that I am way behind getting these to CD's. I need to visit my local radio shack for a longer patch cord as mine is sooo short & I always have to move my turntable which I hate to do.

 

[Rudy]

Chris--I'm very convinced that the two tracks are noisy due to 'mishandling'. It does sound like dirt. It's the first track on each side, but Side 1, "September", is the worst of it. But strangely enough, it's still less noisy on that track than my yellow/red label Capitol.

You're probably noticing how much cleaner these Mobile Fidelity (and other audiophile labels) play. That's what is nice about this album--the groove noise is very subdued, barely audible, and all you really hear is the tape hiss from the two-track master.

I don't know why, but for some reason, this album clicked with me this past winter and I started playing it a lot. Because of that, I figured I'd find the best Capitol copy of it that I could. Someone alerted me that the album was available on Mobile Fidelity, and that was it--I started watching for a copy. I was one who said I'd never pay that much for an LP, but being rare, it will be worth *more* the longer I hold onto it.

 

[Rudy]

One thing about Mobile Fidelity's vinyl, and this has happened before: on repeated playings, some of the ticks and clicks go away. I listened to "September" today and it was quieter than the last time I played it. It could be that the harder vinyl rejects the dirt, where the mass-market vinyl just indents when the dirt is shoved into the groove with the stylus.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

So did you clean it with the doctor? That's interesting that your "September" sound better on the 2nd go around. I've listened to this Lp every night when I get home from work.

About 6 months ago, I won a bid on ebay for Olivia Newton-John Totally Hot LP for $25.00, this was also the Original Master Recording has the usual logo on back cover Mobility Fidelity Sound lab a division of MFSL Inc. This sounds just as perfect as this Cole LP. This Olivia one also has the white labels & looks very much like the Cole Lp I showed pics of and is translucent when holding up to light. The sound is absolutly amazing. I would say it is 200% better that my original Totally Hot Lp pressing. It again sounds like I am in the studio listening to the playback, the clarity is amazing.

What is interesting on the back cover of this Totally Hot original master recording lp it says:

Half Speed Production & Mastering by Original Mastering Works (tm)
Specially Plated & Pressed on High Definition Super Vinyl by Victor Company of Japan ltd.
Source-The Original Stereo Master Tape.
Mastered with the Ortofon Cutting System.


What would that last sentence mean? I thought a Ortofon was a type of stylus?

 

[Rudy]

Ortofon also made record cutting equipment, probably the cutter head on the lathe that Stan Ricker used to cut the LP lacquers with.

I didn't get a chance to clean the LP yet on the vacuum--some of the grunge in the vinyl must be coming out on its own. The rest of the LP is so clean, though, I'm almost afraid to try it. I do have one other MoFi I'm not all that crazy about (Emerson Lake & Palmer's "Pictures At An Exhibition"), so I'll try a cleaning on that one first.

Gino Vannelli's "Powerful People" LP sounds really good on the MoFi vinyl. It smokes the CD version.

One of these days I'll have to start another thread about the MoFi albums I DO own, and we can compare notes. There are still a few I want, but I'm in "extreme patience" mode and can wait a bit to find a good deal. Some other half-speeds are good as well (like Nautilus, Direct Disk Labs, the A&M Audiophiles, etc.), but I CAN wholeheartedly say to AVOID the CBS "Mastersound" Half Speed LPs. The vinyl's quiet, but they screwed up with the mastering EQ big time...the songs just sound totally wonky, oddly balanced. Basically, half-speed mastering is slowing the master tape and LP lathe down by 50%; if you do that, you're supposed to set the mastering EQ an octave lower as well. Columbia didn't do that, and the LPs sound very odd.

Interesting read here: http://www.aurealm.com/jade.htm (I may have posted that link already...be sure to read the Andy Schnitzer interview too.)

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Thanks for the link, there is alot of good info there.