When did bossa nova become popular in the U.S.?

[DAN BOLTON]

While watching tonight's episode of MAD MEN, I heard a passage of bossa nova music that I identified as being from Astrud Gilberto. My question is, when did bossa nova become popular in the U.S.? The show is set in 1960, and I wasn't aware of BN being popular that early...I always assumed that the first real BN to hit the charts was probably from about 1962, and was probably something from Jobim. And, IIRC, Astrud Gilberto didn't become popular until THE GIRL FROM IPANEMA, which was released in 1963, I think...

Was there any bossa nova music on the charts in 1960?


Dan

 

[DAN BOLTON]

The song she sang was AGUA DE BEBER, if that helps...



Dan

 

[Dave]

Perhaps the best place to inquire 'bout Bossa's beginnings (just to garner lil' mo' better response) would be here...:

http://www.amcorner.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=12

inkshield:​

Dave

 

[seashorepiano]

Dan: I had thought that Astrud Gilberto didn't come to the U.S. until 1963 to participate, by hap, in Getz/Gilberto, and that's when Jobim's Verve career took off with the release of The Composer of Desafinado Plays, so I regard 1963 as the date when Brazilians kickstarted bossa nova popularity.

I think this thread should go to the Mendes/Brazilian music forum to see others' recollections and opinions that otherwise may not be posted here. What sayest thou, O Moderator(s)?

 

[Mike Blakesley]

What sayest thou, O Moderator(s)?

I sayest, "Good idea." Topic moved as suggested.

 

[Rudy]

Bossa and samba really began in popularity with the music from "Black Orpheus". It still bubbled under here until those two albums on Verve, "Getz/Gilberto" and Getz's "Jazz Samba", really blew things open in the U.S.

I just got the newest CD by Bebel Gilberto (daughter of Joao Gilberto and singer Miucha), and it's another winner IMHO. She manages to meld together the classic boss nova and samba sounds with modern influences like electronica, sampling, and pop music. I highly recommend her three original CDs--the two remix CDs are good if you are into that sort of thing (a la Alpert's "Rewhipped").

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Bossa and samba really began in popularity with the music from "Black Orpheus". It still bubbled under here until those two albums on Verve, "Getz/Gilberto" and Getz's "Jazz Samba", really blew things open in the U.S.

The Black Orpheus debuted in the U.S. on December 21, 1959; and, according to a website I found after Googling AGUA DE BEBER, I found that Astrud Gilberto recorded it in1959, so I guess the producers of MAD MEN were more on the ball than I thought...I didn't realize that bossa nova or samba music was even being played in the 'States in 1960...


Dan

 

[JMK]

Rudy, samba pre-dates Bossa Nova by (at least) a generation. In fact, when you get "real" Bossa Nova charts by Brasilians, they're invariably in 2/4 (not 4/4, like you'd expect), because Brasilians "feel" the Bossa as a half-time Samba. That said, the Bossa Nova (which I personally date to the late 50s, with Jobim's work with Elizete Cardoso and then, more famously, Black Orpheus) introduced a whole new harmonic palette, influenced heavily by the French Impressionists. Samba tends to be harmonically very simple.

 

[JMK]

Bossa and samba really began in popularity with the music from "Black Orpheus". It still bubbled under here until those two albums on Verve, "Getz/Gilberto" and Getz's "Jazz Samba", really blew things open in the U.S.

The Black Orpheus debuted in the U.S. on December 21, 1959; and, according to a website I found after Googling AGUA DE BEBER, I found that Astrud Gilberto recorded it in1959, so I guess the producers of MAD MEN were more on the ball than I thought...I didn't realize that bossa nova or samba music was even being played in the 'States in 1960...


Dan

Dan, I'm pretty sure that dating for Astrud's recording is wrong. If it's the Elenco one (which is the only one I'm aware of), I know for a fact it was 1964. And I'd have to check, but I don't think Jobim even wrote the song until the early 60s. Astrud had no career before she showed up at the infamous Getz/Gilberto (as in Joao) session and was asked to sing.

 

[seashorepiano]

Rudy, samba pre-dates Bossa Nova by (at least) a generation. In fact, when you get "real" Bossa Nova charts by Brasilians, they're invariably in 2/4 (not 4/4, like you'd expect), because Brasilians "feel" the Bossa as a half-time Samba. That said, the Bossa Nova (which I personally date to the late 50s, with Jobim's work with Elizete Cardoso and then, more famously, Black Orpheus) introduced a whole new harmonic palette, influenced heavily by the French Impressionists. Samba tends to be harmonically very simple.

Agreed on all points. Samba was around for quite a while before bossa nova.

It's definitely true that the early 20th century French composers, especially Debussy and Ravel, were tremendous influences on Jobim and Gilberto. I think previous exposure and playing of the two French composers' works paved the path for me from classical to jazz back in 2001//2002, when I first started listening to jazz and bossa nova in earnest.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

According to her website, you're right, at least about her having no career before the Getz/Gilberto album.

Sooooooooo....the MAD MEN guys were a little off. Ah, well...it's still a good show.



Dan

 

[JMK]

I haven't been able to track down the copyright for Agua de Beber, but I'm virtually positive it's an early to mid 60s composition.

In looking at the thread, I never really chimed in with my two cents on the original question. I think, as Rudy mentioned, the American public at large really became aware of the Bossa Nova through Stan Getz, with Desafinado and Girl from Ipanema. However, there were a number of albums (by everyone from Coleman Hawkins to Paul Winter), featuring Bossa Nova (both original Brasilian and "covers" of American standards) that pre-date Getz's efforts by a couple of years. And there was of course the famous Carnegie Hall concert (that brought Sergio stateside). So the movement had been quietly invading our shores for several years before Getz became the major beneficiary of its sudden nationwide consciousness.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

I haven't been able to track down the copyright for Agua de Beber, but I'm virtually positive it's an early to mid 60s composition.

In looking at the thread, I never really chimed in with my two cents on the original question. I think, as Rudy mentioned, the American public at large really became aware of the Bossa Nova through Stan Getz, with Desafinado and Girl from Ipanema. However, there were a number of albums (by everyone from Coleman Hawkins to Paul Winter), featuring Bossa Nova (both original Brasilian and "covers" of American standards) that pre-date Getz's efforts by a couple of years. And there was of course the famous Carnegie Hall concert (that brought Sergio stateside). So the movement had been quietly invading our shores for several years before Getz became the major beneficiary of its sudden nationwide consciousness.

I had forgotten about DANSE MODERNO...


Dan

 

[JMK]

I had forgotten about DANSE MODERNO...


Dan

Well, if you start getting into Brasilian releases of Bossa Nova you're going to really go back pre-1962-63, not to state the obvious. Like I said, I personally feel the first real bossa nova records are Jobim's arrangements for Elizete Cardoso circa 1956-58. But you can find nascent bossa nova (really slower sambas) much earlier than that. Black Orpheus, though it's thought of as a Bossa Nova movie, is really a samba movie if you listen to the bulk of the score. But it, for Brasil, was the culmination (kind of like Getz in the U.S.) of a lot of activity and seemed to be the "tipping point."

But, back to the matter at hand--there are a ton of Brasilian releases from, say, 1955-56 on that could be termed Bossa Nova, or at least Bossa Nova-esque.

 

[Rudy]

Well, if you start getting into Brasilian releases of Bossa Nova you're going to really go back pre-1962-63, not to state the obvious.

That was actually my point above (which probably wasn't very clear, written in my constant fog of insomnia as of late): the whole samba/Bossa Nova movement really didn't start to get noticed here until the early 60s, and Getz really busted it open for the masses (after, as you say, Black Orpheus tipped the scale years earlier). From my own memory, I figured the Bossa Nova style started in the late 50s, but the samba I remember came many decades earlier (and IMHO, probably goes back further than we think).

 

[seashorepiano]

I may be wrong, but I think samba originates from tribal dance music.

 

[Rudy]

I may be wrong, but I think samba originates from tribal dance music.

I would think that's true as well. Similar to how many African beats go back many generations...centuries, even.

 

[JMK]

Though there are certainly ritualistic precursors, what we think of as "samba" is actually a 20th century development. The first "samba schools" (escola de samba) didn't show up until the 20s or 30s. That's when the samba started becoming the music of Carnaval. Wikipedia's article on samba is actually pretty coherent and accurate (for Wikipedia, if you know what I mean). I have a couple of minor quibbles with it (e.g., I don't think the samba's harmonic language is anywhere near as sophisticated as the bossa nova's), but it will give you a good basic history lesson:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samba