Benge Trumpets: Herb, Tannie and Lee

[JOv2]

I've been away the past two + months focusing on trumpet matters and happily stumbled upon a Benge brochure, circa 1971. Since its inception in 1935 to its sale in 1971-72 (to King) Benge was a "boutique" horn with low production volume. Those that purchased these horns were guaranteed a hand-made instrument either by Elden Benge himself (1935-60) or by a staff including John Duda (1955-71), Bob Reeves (1964-71) and Zig Kanstul (1968-71) -- all well known and well respected names in trumpet design and manufacture.

(Interestingly, Benge had no active advertising campaign; rather, the horns were sold via word-of-mouth and by way of "agents" in various areas of the country. During the "Chicago era" (1935-53) the horns were mostly played by orchestral trumpeters; however, when Elden moved to Burbank, the "Burbank era" (1953-71) saw a transition to jazz. Many West coast players favoured the horn -- along with East Coast players such as Lee Morgan, Donald Byrd and Freddie Hubbard.)

 

[Rudy]

Cool stuff! 👍 I always like seeing what horns the pros use.

Our pal @Rim Kasputis owns a Benge--I remember he had Herb sign it back in 2009.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Herb has such an identifiable sound... if he played some other kind of trumpet could you still tell it was him?

 

[Rudy]

Easily. Same with any horn or woodwind. The quality of the tone will change slightly but the player's style is way more recognizable. If Herbie switched to a flugelhorn, the tone would change due to it being a "softer" sounding horn, but we'd still know it was his playing.

For a horn player, though, it's often the feel of the instrument that makes a difference in how they play it. Not so much with brass instruments, but professional woodwinds tend to "blow" easier and have much better key action than student or mid-level instruments.

To be honest, with woodwinds (and especially those which use reeds), changing a mouthpiece often results in a larger change in sound than changing the brand or model of horn. With reeds, also, a harder reed has a different tone than a softer one; Paul Desmond and Stan Getz both played hard reeds.

With trumpet, trombone and other brass mouthpieces, the depth of the cup makes a difference.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I listened to a Howard Stern interview of producer Jimmy Iovine. He said after he worked with Elton John, other people wanted to get "that piano sound" and would call him to make their piano sound that way. He had to explain that the sound was in Elton's fingers, so the only way you'd get that sound would be to have Elton playing. I expect the same is true of Herb's (or any other player's) horn.

 

[JOv2]

The quality of the tone will change slightly but the player's style is way more recognizable. If Herbie switched to a flugelhorn, the tone would change due to it being a "softer" sounding horn, but we'd still know it was his playing.

Exactly. A player's technique typically overrides the horn (unless, of course, the horn itself limits the player's technique). Also, the recording and playback process cannot capture the player's experience of feeling a horn. There is a feel to each instrument manufacturer (and each model as well) that is a purely individual experience for each player. That said, the different feel of each horn may manifest in how the player plays each, however.

Herb obviously wanted Tannie to match as close as possible his style, which is surely why Tannie played a Benge as well: while Tannie emulated Herb's style, the Benge would also help him also match timbre. Interestingly, Herb played a Chicago-era Benge -- which were made, 1935-1953, and which means either Herb bought it used as an adult, or it was purchased new when he was a teenager. Based on the 3rd-valve slide stop I've seen on Tannie's, he's also most likely playing a Chicago-era Benge.

That said, I'm certain Herb and Tannie each carried 4 horns to their concerts: their two performance horns that they alternated between and their #1 back up (the 4th horn is the emergency horn -- necessary given Herb's world-renowned status -- that probably followed a different logistical pathway...). I'd be curious to know if Herb and Tannie visited the Benge shop in Burbank, which was in operation, 1953-1970, as that would not only be the best place to play many different horns, but, also where Herb and Tannie could personally address any custom issues they might have (including repair) of their current horns. (If you look up "Herb Alpert" in the Chicago Benge database, you'll find at least two horns under his name.) A quick view of the current "live" '60s TJB footage on YouTube confirms Herb and Tannie routinely played their Benges. (Interestingly, the '74-'75 TJB group with Bob Findley clearly shows that Bob is not playing a Benge...I guess Herb didn't feel the need to tell a virtuoso what brand of horn to play!)

Benges are fairly easy to spot given the unique forward-facing 2nd valve slide and the brace on the tuning slide.

Here are two more jazz heavyweights playing Benges in the 1960s: Donald Byrd -- on a Chicago-era looking horn (similar to Tannie's) and the great Freddie Hubbard.

 

[Rudy]

(Interestingly, the '74-'75 TJB group with Bob Findley clearly shows that Bob is not playing a Benge...I guess Herb didn't feel the need to tell a virtuoso what brand of horn to play!)

That and many musicians play what they are comfortable with--if a Benge didn't feel right to Bob Findlay, he'd play something else.

Many sax players gravitate towards Selmer, and in particular, they often shoot for the lofty goal of getting a Mk. VI. (They are still the most coveted generation of Selmer, as indicated by prices.) Once the 80s and 90s came along, though, their product line expanded to where they had horns made in other places besides Paris---some good, some not so good. (Ironically, they now make a Selmer Paris Reference 54 that is a contemporary version of the Mk. VI, which was discontinued in the late 70s.) The Mk. VII was looked down upon back when it was in production (that's what I had) and was not too long after followed by the SA80 (Super Action 80) which went back to a thicker metal like the Mk. VI.

I remember seeing one of David Sanborn's altos in person and it looked like something straight out of a pawn shop. Getting it relacquered would negatively alter the tone, especially since the lacquer would not be the same consistency or thickness. He's been a Selmer artist for decades.

Some players do change after a while though. I asked Bob Mintzer a couple of times what horn he was playing--about 20 years ago, he had a Mk. VI that he'd had gold plated, and had played for decades. But last time I asked, probably a decade ago, he'd switched to some Asian brand I can't recall the name of and he really likes it. I know that it wasn't tied to any sponsorship deal, but I've seen other horn players change their preference after sponsorships/endorsements. In a sense, I once felt that it was a way for a manufacturer to buy their way into a player's favor, but the player has to like the horn if they want to enjoy playing it or make a living from it.

Some artists also have relationships with equipment manufacturers to where the company could make modifications based on artist input. I remember reading a few things about Maynard having some pull at Holton LeBlanc. This is more so in the world of guitars and other stringed instruments.

 

[JOv2]

That and many musicians play what they are comfortable with--if a Benge didn't feel right to Bob Findlay, he'd play something else.

I was also thinking that during '66-'68 Herb was at the top of the mark in entertainment; so, to meet fan expectations, it would have been very important to him that the touring band match his LP performances as close as possible. The marimba issue aside, it was probably critical to Herb that Tannie could match Herb's twin-trumpet sound. During the '74-'75 period, that was no longer an issue. Further, in hiring Bob, Herb had a trumpeter with an exceedingly high technical acumen and solid jazz chops (that's why Herb made the funny remark about how Bob was after his job!).

I don't know anything about playing reed instruments, but I surmise that the differences from sax to sax, for instance, are far more pronounced than trumpet-to-trumpet. On average playback equipment most trumpeters (e.g., Blue Mitchell, Thad Jones, Don Cherry) exhibit strong sonic similarities; however, the differences among tenor players (e.g., Stanley Turrentine, Hank Mobley, Wayne Shorter) are much more varied.

 

[Rudy]

I don't know anything about playing reed instruments, but I surmise that the differences from sax to sax, for instance, are far more pronounced than trumpet-to-trumpet.

Reed instruments can differ quite a bit.

The individual horns aren't really that much different in sound. Someone with good ears hearing the horn by itself and in person (not through a microphone) could probably hear the minor differences in construction like thin vs. thick metal, different materials (brass vs., say, plastic, or a cheaper alloy), different lacquers, and even the difference between a student and pro horn. (Even with my limited abilities, the Selmer Mk. VII sounded better than my student model.)

Where things really change is not only due to playing style (especially breath/diaphragm support, and embouchure), but to the combination of mouthpiece and reed. Mouthpieces come in different materials like hard rubber, plastic, metal, and other materials. They also have different bore sizes and shapes, and the facing (where the reed lays) can be cut differently, where a larger gap between reed and mouthpiece will require a lot more air to make a sound. The strength (thickness/stiffness) of the reed also makes a large difference--Stan Getz played with a stiffer reed, as did Paul Desmond, which gave them that stiff/dry sound. Again, a stiffer reed requires more air to vibrate. I would wager that players who sounded similar probably had similar playing styles and mouthpieces (Plas Johnson, early John Klemmer, etc. have some similarities for instance).

Double-reed instruments are entirely different also--they sound more alike instrument-to-instrument since the only real "mouthpiece" is two reeds twined together inside a metal-lined cork tube. There might be minor differences but since they are used primarily in orchestral or instrumental ensembles, it's not like they have a huge following.

Oboes, English horns, bassoons, and contrabassoons all use a double-reed setup.



With flutes, we're closer to brass instruments since there are no reeds, and there is less variation in flute headjoints than in brass mouthpieces. So even more so than brass instruments, we have to rely even more on a player's individual style so we can tell Hubert Laws from Herbie Mann, for instance.

 

[JOv2]

Hey, that's great, Rudy. Thanks! I never gave it much thought but, as presented, it would appear as though there is far greater latitude with the single reeds than with double reeds (while the flute has no such contributing component). With brass, you are correct pointing out cup depth; in addition, cup width, rim sharpness, and throat size also contribute -- which is why mouthpiece development, particularly for trumpets, continues to be an indispensable part of the horn.

 

[Bobberman]

I like what I've read here on Benge trumpets so far no wonder they are hard to come by they were truly custom made and not as readily available as your Conn's Yamaha's King's or other readily available brands as much as I would love a Benge as close to Herb's as possible even if it's not a Benge the price would be prohibitively out of my reach but at least the minimum requirement for me(playing for fun of course) has been met so far easy care and maintenence ( regular valve and slide lubrication as well as cleaning mouthpieces and leadpipes and slides casings etc )good sound and regular polishing to keep them looking As Good as possible but thanks for the info I do enjoy reading about things like this

 

[JOv2]

I like what I've read here on Benge trumpets so far no wonder they are hard to come by they were truly custom made and not as readily available as your Conn's Yamaha's King's or other readily available brands as much as I would love a Benge as close to Herb's as possible even if it's not a Benge the price would be prohibitively out of my reach but at least the minimum requirement for me(playing for fun of course) has been met so far easy care and maintenence ( regular valve and slide lubrication as well as cleaning mouthpieces and leadpipes and slides casings etc )good sound and regular polishing to keep them looking As Good as possible but thanks for the info I do enjoy reading about things like this

Bobberman, the best period for Benge is the Burbank period, 1953-1971. There were a few thousand made during this period, and there always seem to be a few up for sale on Ebay and elsewhere...but most of these need to be reconditioned. In the end, it'll run about $3,000: be it a $1,600 horn that needs about $800 worth of work, or a "turn key" $2,900 beaut. The Chicago period horns, 1935-1953, are more expensive as a result of scarcity and historic value. In my opinion, the best Benges you can find are from 1957-60 and probably 1969-70. If you're interested in further details in searching for and selecting a used Benge send me a PM. I'm actually casually looking for a 3rd Burbank at the moment...