Finest Herb Alpert Albums: Technically & Style

[Philhornblower]

I am a trumpet player myself and have studied and been fascinated by Herb Alpert's style almost from the beginning. He is, after all, the most successful trumpeter the world has ever seen! But contrary to some of the previous posts on this forum I don't think Herb's performances declined after SRO or "Sounds Like." To the contrary, it is my opinion that his finest technical performance (speaking as a trumpet player) was the "Warm" album. My heavens, it is magnificent! And despite its lack of "hits" I think the finest album he ever produced style-wise was "You Smile and the Song Begins." Yes, it's very different from the early TJB albums, but it's absolutely unique. There's never been anything like it---before or since. What is the style of "You Smile?" Parisian-Pop or something? I would be most interested in how you other Alpert fans would describe this style. I just wish he had continued in that vein! If I had to list my favorite Alpert albums, I would say 1) You Smile 2) SRO and 3) Warm. My favorite single Alpert "hit" of all time..."The Work Song." I'm probably out here all by myself with my opinions but I would be grateful for any and all comments/reactions.

 

[Rudy]

You Smile... to me has always sounded like it was assembled from a few different sessions, but that is not necessarily bad. "Last Tango In Paris" may be the earliest recording, since it appeared on Foursider. It's actually the beginning of his being stylistically "all over the map", so to speak, since there is a sampling of different styles on the album. (I like Coney Island for the same reason.) His earlier TJB albums were more constant stylistically.

Afraid this didn't help much...

 

[Clark]

Without a doubt IMHO, Whipped Cream and Other Delights is the best of the Brass. Technically superb, this is Herb Alpert creating powerful arrangements and executing them flawlessly. This is Herb Alpert the arranger and artist, before he became a celebrity, a record mogul and a performer. Before the days of personal appearances, fame and ultimately, personal problems, this album shows Herb doing what he did best, making killer arrangements and translating them in a studio into beautiful music. With A Taste Of Honey, Bittersweet Samba, Green Peppers, Whipped Cream and the others, he set a standard that he would maintain but never surpass. In Whipped Cream and Other Delights, , he captured a unique blend of latin rythems and American Jazz which grabbed America's attention so that in the short span of a year, late 1965 to late 1966, he went from being an obscure artist to a star. As he put it, his band went from not knowing where Tijuana was to owning it. In his first Hollywood Palace appearance in December, 1965, he was not given the opportunity to speak a line. In October, 1966, he hosted the show.

He was able to keep the momentum going in his next two albums, but by SRO the sound was beginning to change: more jazz and less latin, the arrangements less vigorus and appealing, the sound less bold, with the trumpet often being overshadowed and muted. The downward evolution of the sound continued into the 9th and 10th albums, even as the Brass reached the peak of its media popularity. Again, IMHO, Herb had too many irons in the fire by this time, and what was once his main focus, making thrillingly happy music had shifted to other areas, including a carreer as a single artist. The dissapation of his talents ended with the breakup of the old Brass. Herb was able to recover and move in new directions. As an independlty wealthy artist, he could indulge himself in whatever direction he wanted and could still command a certain degree of attention. Unfortunately, he was never able to consistantly grab the attention of the listening public to the extent he was able to in 1965 and 1966

I will forever be a fan of the man and all of his music. All of his albums have a song or two that grab my attention. Whipped Cream and Other Delights is the only one I can listen to over and over without skipping any of the tracks. I try to listen to A Taste Of Honey at least once a day to keep my attitude right. It never got any better than that.

 

[Captaindave]

My comments on the technical playing issues will remain unchanged. These comments can be reread if desired so I will avoid repeating them.

There is plenty of room for opinion on stylistic considerations - but the technical matters that have been previously discussed could be adequately addressed by many professional players and teachers who will most likely give a "thumbs down" on those issues. I know that none of my trumpet teachers would have tolerated me trying to sound like Herb Alpert on the later albums. They would have all said at the very least "bad tone!"

I could offer a long list of players who do, in fact, have good tone. Herb Alpert had good tone and sound until his later albums, when it became fairly obvious to the trained listener that he was no longer playing as he was earlier. The quality of tone was suffering and the big, full, robust, resonant sound that is absolutely characteristic of a good trumpet tone was gone. The sound had become unfocused and without the clarity and resonance that is characteristic of a trumpet - and of Herb's own prior playing. Perhaps this change of sound was in some way intentional on Herb's part. But I sure cannot see why.

I must reiterate that I am and always will be a big fan of Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass. I would rather listen to those old TJB recordings than probably any other music I can think of. But, as a professionally trained trumpet player with 38 years of playing experience, I can say that his later playing was not as good - technically speaking, as his earlier work.

I am not dealing with his commercial success or various stylistic issues. There is no doubt on the commercial issue or that Herb is a master musical stylist - in my opinion, that has always been one of his greatest strengths - I simply cannot agree that the later albums are reflective of the good sound found on the earlier work - or even on the FANDANGO album where it appears that the old sound has returned, and where I can hear what I was trained to hear coming from a trumpet.

As far as those earlier albums are concerned, I think Herb was at his best on the trumpet with SOUTH OF THE BORDER, WHIPPED CREAM AND OTHER DELIGHTS, GOING PLACES, and WHAT NOW MY LOVE. The FANDANGO album is also very good from the trumpet playing point of view.

Just as a postscript, so to speak. I recently attended a concert by Arturo Sandoval. Arturo is a wonderful example of tone and technical mastery. Again I am not considering style here. Arturo's concert was basically a Latin and contemporary jazz performance. But ,WOW, what a player.....But I would still probably rather hear the old TJB recordings anyway and would have probably enjoyed a Herb Alpert performance even more...

 

[Philhornblower]

What would be really interesting to know is what Herb himself thinks was his best work---both technically and stylistically. Has he ever said anything about this in interviews or private comments that you know of?
Regarding his tone, I know that he changed equipment somewhere along the line. I believe he started with a lacquer-finish Chicago Benge and later went to a silver horn. I don't know what mouthpiece he used in the beginning but I know in later years he used a Marcinowitz (sp?). I thought the finest tone he ever produced was in the song "The Nicest Things Can Happen..." Finally, I would still be grateful for any & all descriptions you folks would offer of the style found in "You Smile and the Song Begins."

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Regarding his tone, I know that he changed equipment somewhere along the line. I believe he started with a lacquer-finish Chicago Benge and later went to a silver horn. I don't know what mouthpiece he used in the beginning but I know in later years he used a Marcinowitz (sp?).

According to the Windplayer magazine article from last year, he still uses the Benge on the recordings (http://www.amcorner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=246), but uses different horns on the road.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Captaindave]

Now, of course, I can't speak for Herb....

But, I have a feeling that Herb may see his various periods of work - TJB, solo, etc. like chapters in a perhaps unfinished book. It has been discussed on these forums that even within the original TJB period of 1962 - 1970 or so, that the style and sound was generally going through a metamorphosis the entire time, and that the albums can be seen in terms of a developing sound and style over the decade.

It seems to me that Herb has always been looking forward and into new frontiers, so to speak. So he may regard his various endeavors as simply different directions, rather than in a good/better/best type comparison.

I am pretty sure than Herb used the Chicago Benge during his TJB years. I have also heard that a Bach 7B mouthpiece may have been used. So, the sound that we have come to identify with the TJB is the Benge sound - BUT - it is the Benge sound as produced by Herb Alpert. Someone else could play Herb's exact horn and mouthpiece setup and still not sound like him. That would be true of anyone else as well. So, equipment affects the sound, but no two players will sound the same even if equipment is the same.

A lacquer horn has a slight tendency to have a little "darker" and "warmer" sound than a silver plated horn - the plating offering a little more tendency to brilliance. However, there are many players who do not think that the finish of a horn makes any difference. I tend to disagree somewhat - I prefer lacquer. Silver is too "marching band" for my tastes.

I think that Herb was playing Marcinkiewicz horns and mouthpieces at about the WILD ROMANCE and perhaps even into the MIDNIGHT SUN periods. Most recently, I have read that Herb was playing a Kanstul trumpet. Zig Kanstul was plant manager for Benge when Benge was still in California in the late sixties and early seventies, before the UMI buyout. Now, Kanstul owns his own instrument company in Anaheim, California, and manufactures Kanstul trumpets - which are excellent horns. In fact, the closest horn available today to the original Chicago Benge is the Kanstul Chicago - a virtually exact reproduction of the original Chicago Benge. If you want a trumpet today that is like Herb's Chicago Benge, get a Kanstul Chicago.

I have also heard it said that the Chicago was Herb's favorite horn....

Some of the songs that I think really show off Herb's unique sound and stylistic quality are So What's New, Mae, The Shadow Of Your Smile, A Taste Of Honey, All My Loving, Mexican Shuffle, Up Cherry Street, More And More Amor, And The Angels Sing, Memories Of Madrid, and,on a newer effort, Route 101. Notice that these are not all among the big hits. But they do, IMO, really set Herb apart as a trumpet player and help create the unique sound and style of the TJB...

 

[DAN BOLTON]

If you just want to talk about the trumpet, I think the pinnacle of Herb's style and technique reached a zenith with SRO...the horn never seemed more romantic. He did things with that trumpet that I never dreamed were possible. People asked me if he had a special horn to get that sound...and I always had to say no, that it was all HIM. I still don't know how he did it, but the breathy quality of his tone was unbelieveable, especially on songs like I WILL WAIT FOR YOU and DON'T GO BREAKING MY HEART. These are watermark songs for me.


Dan

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Just a postscript...Herb can really make a trumpet "whisper"...it becomes a much more intimate instrument when it does that...and there's a fine line between quality and "slop" here. Herb NEVER crossed it. Nobody else even considered doing what he did, with a possible exception of maybe Bert Kaempfert. The sound was different, and classical, traditionally trained players and teachers everywhere HATED it, mine included. I tried to play like him, but I ended up in the "slop" category...and it wouldn't do to copy him, anyway. But, he was DIFFERENT, and the sound was fresh and unique. and, I'd rather hear his style over any other trumpeter I know, except maybe Gabriel...and I bet even HE'S been influenced by Herb, too...



Dan

 

[Captaindave]

I can agree with the above posts about Herb's sound...

A trumpet can be a very bold and dominating instrument by its very nature. But Herb had a way of making the sound very "intimate" - as if he was talking rather than shouting at you. Of course, many of the TJB songs had a very dominating trumpet lead - but there are also many songs where the trumpet becomes a more "caressing" sound - almost "romantic" in nature as well. Not overbearing, but as a "companion" to the other instruments in the ensemble...

This is one of the problems I have with some trumpet players who can only perceive the trumpet in its very heroic, brilliant, fanfare, high range, loud, brash type sound and role in an ensemble or orchestra, i.e., the typical "lead" trumpet sound.


I like Herb's approach very much when he plays a song and squeezes every ounce of feeling out of the notes as possible. He uses the horn in a way that is unreachable by other players, and I think it is partly because other players do not envision the horn as he does - as an instrument of communication of emotion and feeling - of lyrical tone and melody - not just as a "heralding bugle." There is a great deal involved in the production of tone that is MENTAL(CONCEPT of tone is mental), and no one else can get inside Herb's head...

Herb has definitely defined the sound and purpose and tonal range of the trumpet as no others have. The short little solo line in DON'T GO BREAKING MY HEART is an excellent example of the sound and style that Herb has created for the trumpet and which no one can copy...

P.S. The Benge sound is unique to the Benge trumpet - it is somewhat different than most other horns - although I can still hear the definitive Herb Alpert tone on all his recordings regardless of the horn being used at the time. I am thinking seriously about getting a Kanstul Chicago - that is the Chicago Benge of today. But I still will sound like me and not like Herb

 

[Stephen Vakil]

Having bought an Andy Williams compiltaion album last summer, I took the opportunity to see him in concert at the Albert Hall in London. It made me appreciate the fact that Alpert's style has changed so much over the years.

It seemed to me (albeit from a position of ignorance) that Williams's style and repertoire had not moved on from the 60's and that he was trying to recapture the era. This was exactly what the crowd wanted and I remeber a group of, shall we say, mature ladies throwing roses at the stage!

Look at Alpert's work and the startling progress and changes which we have seen through the years. There are very few Alpert albums I don't listen to regularly (Lonely Bull - where Desafinado is the only masterpiece - and Vol 2) and I wouldn't be able to say that if they all sounded the same.

Imagine if Alpert still tried to be the sixties heart-throb today, relying on his former success. We wouldn't have had the trio of masterful mid-70's albums, the Masekela collaborations, Rise, Abstract Heart, Midnight Sun, Second Wind and Passion Dance. And we wouldn't have had the opportunity not that many years ago to hear live the jazz improvisation which was only hinted at in TJB recordings.

Stephen

 

[Brasil_Nut]

I would be most interested in how you other Alpert fans would describe this style. I just wish he had continued in that vein! If I had to list my favorite Alpert albums, I would say 1) You Smile 2) SRO and 3) Warm. My favorite single Alpert "hit" of all time..."The Work Song." I'm probably out here all by myself with my opinions but I would be grateful for any and all comments/reactions.

You're not out there by yourself at all. I couldn't agree with you more. Although Herb has been quoted as saying that he found himself in a rut, I don't believe that his desire to learn and stretch his creativity dwindled in the least. This is why I love Just You & Me. Herb didn't just play the trumpet here, he played piano and other instruments with personality and flair - as I said in another post - this is a very personal glimpse into the love between Herb and Lani.

"The Work Song" is amazing. As for style, Beat Of The Brass always struck a chord with me. It's masterful from beginning to end. I could take or leave "Talk To The Animals" - a tune better suited to live performances - but the rest of the album is amazing (IMHO).

Herb has described the period between You Smile The Song Begins and Coney Island as a "dark" period in his life. Well, I honestly believe that some of his best playing came from these recordings. Zooming ahead, another Alpert tune that really hits home with me is "Always Have A Dream." Wow! I remember listening to this for the first time and thinking, "You've done it Herb...you've updated the TJB and you sound better than ever..." It was a mind-blowing experience for me.

My favorites? 1) Going Places 2) SRO 3) Beat Of The Brass 4) Warm 5) You Smile The Song Begins 6) Just You & Me and 7) Bullish.

Jon...the "Brasil Nut"

 

[CTswimmer]

I remember taking trumpet in the 5th grade for a year and dropping it due to lack of interest, only to take lessons again in high school (1966)when the TJB was getting really popular. I still play today and listening to Herb and his arrangements have always inspired and "spoken" to me. I agree that he has a unique style and makes the horn very intimate-sounding and romantic. I remember reading a review about the Going Places album by Charles Champlin and he said that Herb's group has the "power of a fire battalion...". So this speaks to his versatility as a musician as well. It's funny in a way: I never really had the desire to listen to very many musicians but the TJB and Herb's solo albums ALWAYS were my top choice. Not sure I can explain why.

I remember in college during a lesson (I was playing out of Arban's book) I added a jazzy riff that I thought was pretty hot at the end of an exercise. The teacher asked, "what was that you added at the end?" I replied, "Oh, I just threw that in", to which he said, "Well, we're gonna throw it right back out!" I guess I was so hyped up on achieving "the TJB style" that I didn't realize that it was the wrong time and place.

Just by reading some of the posts, I have experienced much of the thoughts and emotions/excitement of a TJB fan. I went to a 1974 concert at Oakdale in Connecticut after the Coney Island album came out. I went with 2 friends and we couldn't go backstage but Herb signed all our concert progam brochures. I have it framed along with other concert photos I took that night. Like another writer said, Herb was always "first class" and made you feel special (like he was playing only to and for you).

I remember the first time I heard the TJB. I will never forget it. I was in junior high, right after the Going Places album came out. We were sitting around during music class, waiting for class to start and the teacher walked in with a record under his arm and said, "I have a new album here I think you all will enjoy". That was it for me. I never heard anything like it before or since. It just goes to prove Herb's innovation in the music field: before he came along, there was Dixieland and Mariachi, each separate sounds. The TJB married the 2 sounds.

As far as my favorite TJB cuts I'd have to say "The Happening" on his Ninth album. I like the forceful driving beat and the silky horn sound and the finale at the end after the key change. "And the Angels Sing", "Spanish Flea" I've always liked as well. I could go on and on, I know...they're all good, right? One thing has always confused me: On his Christmas Album, The Bell that couldn't Jingle: was that supposed to be a take? Why does he say "Terrific, terrific" at the end? It always sounded out-of-place to me. Did a sound engineer put that in the final version by mistake? If this was discussed before, forgive me.

I just signed on today and glad to be a member. By reading some of the posts, it has brought back some fond memories as I hope I have done and continue to do for others.

Peace & health
Chris

 

[Captaindave]

I agree...

I have many fond memories from my youth, and those include Herb Apert and the TJB in many ways. I graduated from high school in 1969, and grew up listening to the TJB. My interest in the TJB began about 1965 and grew from there as I became more involved with playing the trumpet myself.
By the time I was in high school, I was playing in a group that copied the TJB songbook, sound, and style - even to the style of dress for performances. So, while I enjoyed some of the other pop music from the times, it was TJB that was the number one sound and style for me, and some of my friends.
My favorite albums are probably from the TJB "midperiod" so to speak - South of the Border through SRO - before and after those albums are good, but I guess I identify with that "middle" sound the most.

Were it not for the existence of Herb and the TJB, I probably would not have many of the best memories of my youth, and may not have pursued the trumpet as seriously as I did....

Maybe I'm alone on this, and some people will have varying opinions, but for me at least, there will never be another time like the sixties....it was an interesting and exciting time to be young and alive...yes, it had its negative things and some very bad stuff happened, but in spite of it all, I had a great time growing up then...
Never before and never again since has anything been like it

 

[DAN BOLTON]

The thing that really made me appreciate the '60's was the '70's...dull, but scary at the same time...kinda like the '50's...no wonder the music came back[Happy Days..et al...]...yeah, I miss the '60's....and Chuck Champlin was right on the money in the TJB's GrEATEST HITS liner notes when he said that the "soundtrack for the best moments were provided by the Tijuana Brass...


Dan

 

[Steven J. Gross]

It's often described as "happy music"!

 

[Rudy]

OK, so, help me figure this out: I grow up listening to Herb...and end up playing sax?? Sheesh! How the heck did *I* get reprogrammed?? It's never too old to learn something new, though, as I see it.

 

[Mr Bill]

...I grow up listening to Herb...and end up playing sax?? Sheesh! How the heck did *I* get reprogrammed??

And not just any sax but a soprano sax a la a certain Kenny (last letter omitted to protect the guilty). And you can deny it all you want, Captain B and I have the picture to prove it!

--Mr Bill
wondering if he should post this issue in the mystery thread to really gum up the works...

 

[Rudy]

Naaaah...I have proof. Half the pads have rotted away, so it's unplayable. And the last time I played it (1982), I was using a borrowed mouthpiece anyway, since the one that came with it was unusable. I use it for a coat rack.

Got a whup-ass Selmer Mk VII tenor...although I'd gladly trade it for a Super Action 80 bari. But would be difficult to play, having asthma...

 

[CTswimmer]

I think to accurately appreciate the music of the TJB, the focus should be on their SOUND and not the group's technical expertise (although some cuts are undeniably technical: Zorba the Greek, Carmen, with the double-tongueing) what has identified the group for me at least has always been the sound. I remember when I was younger when the group was very popular in the 60's, I would be in a store or hear a radio and immediately know that it was the TJB, even though it was the first time I ever heard the cut! I would instinctively know; so for me I was able to identify them and appreciate them by their sound. A horn player can immediately sense this by reading TJB sheet music and know how much adaptation and personal interpretation was put into the TJB's music by HA. In some cases, it's really a long way away from what's written. It was HA who made it all come alive.

Just to pick up on Ry Cooder's new album: I was in a bookstore about 3 weeks ago and heard a cut from the album and remember thinking, "Gee, that sounds a lot like Herb Alpert". I went to the desk and was told that it was a Ry Cooder album. Not having my glasses with me, I couldn't read the CD but having read some of the posts and knowing now that HA has recorded on it I'll buy it soon. I'm really not sure what makes his sound so identifiable...maybe it's just a feeling that I get. Sure, you can attach words like "romantic", "silky", "smooth", etc. but again I think it's more a feeling (and the desire to dream, maybe)? There was an A&M poster that I got when I was a kid entitled "Good music is alive". (It was an ad for 4 albums: Claudine (Colours), Robin Wilson, Alan Copeland and one other that I forget). I guess alive is what I feel when I hear his music.

 

[Captaindave]

Very true, CTswimmer;
The SOUND of the TJB and not the virtuosity of the players is what made the recordings and performances what they were/are. And may I add the word STYLE as well. For it is the stylistic performance that contributes much to the sound.

It is very true - this music was NOT about notes on paper or reading music as written. I have a feeling that not much that we hear on record or in concert was ever written in the standard sense of notes on staff paper. Had that been attempted, the sound and style would have probably never happened.

Herb Alpert is one of the all time great trumpet STYLISTS. His sound is unmatchable by others because it came out or him personally and that is something that no one else can duplicate. He himself could probably not tell you in words how he plays the way he does or exactly how the sound happens as far as giving a description of what he does.

Another thing that contributes to the sound is that the TJB played together well as an ensemble. They all added something to make a whole greater than the sum of the parts. There was cohesiveness and unity that made the group sound like a finely tuned machine.

I think of the Herb Alpert and the TJB as a sound and style - not in terms of specific virtuoso players - although these guys had definitely mastered the technical details of playing their respective instruments. This is because it is necessary to be able to control the instrument to get to the point of having sound and style. That is why beginners sound so much different than professionals....And, they always made it look so EASY!

 

[DAN BOLTON]

OK, so, help me figure this out: I grow up listening to Herb...and end up playing sax?? Sheesh! How the heck did *I* get reprogrammed?? It's never too old to learn something new, though, as I see it.

Maybe it's a blessing...I should have been a sax player...overbite of Bugs Bunny proportion...but, I loved Herb Alpert and had to take up the horn...I never could blat out a clear and rich tone without serious thrombonuclear discomfitment, so I never set the word on fire...and trying to match Herb's embrochure produced a lot of by-product that kept my spitvalves lubricated...but I could really wail on an alto sax...didn't find this out until my Senior year, and by then, it was waaaaay too late...


Dan, thinking you might have made the right choice...

 

[Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar]

I feel that "Zorba the Greek" was the toughest trumpet part HA did. That tonguing can be a "bit**".

 

[Brasil_Nut]

You Smile... to me has always sounded like it was assembled from a few different sessions, but that is not necessarily bad. "Last Tango In Paris" may be the earliest recording, since it appeared on Foursider. It's actually the beginning of his being stylistically "all over the map", so to speak, since there is a sampling of different styles on the album. (I like Coney Island for the same reason.) His earlier TJB albums were more constant stylistically.

I couldn't agree with you more. You Smile was a mix of different sounds. I hear this within Coney Island also, though it has more consistancy. Since Herb was heading toward a solo career, I think you could have hit the nail on the head about different recording sessions. Also (correct me if I'm wrong), but wasn't You Smile recorded over a period of a couple of years? I've noticed this with Lani's albums of the time as well. Sundown Lady seemed to follow a somewhat "folksy" theme. Hello It's Me was stylistically different in many ways -- and recorded about the same time as You Smile. By the time she recorded Sweet Bird, the sound was back to consistancy. Just an observation on my part. Something I've always wondered about and noticed.

Jon

...staying up late due to an A.M. root canal that's keeping him awake...

 

[Brasil_Nut]

OK, so, help me figure this out: I grow up listening to Herb...and end up playing sax?? Sheesh! How the heck did *I* get reprogrammed?? It's never too old to learn something new, though, as I see it.

Think nothing of it...I tried many wind instruments while growing up: Clarinet, Saxophone and Trumpet. All I accomplished was to bite the damn reed and make some rather obscene sounds...

With that, I took up Guitar, Piano, Percussion and Vocals...

By the way...Vocals & Percussion won out!

Jon

...wind-challenged, online and off...