🎷 AotW: CTi J & K - BETWIXT & BETWEEN (SP-3016)

All the A&M/CTi releases

How Would You Rate This Album?

  • ***** (Best)

    Votes: 4 44.4%
  • ****

    Votes: 2 22.2%
  • ***

    Votes: 2 22.2%
  • **

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • * (Worst)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Never Heard This Album

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    9

Captain Bacardi

Well-Known Member
Moderator
Thread Starter
J & K
BETWIXT & BETWEEN

A&M/CTi SP-3016

sp3016.jpg

Released 1969
Peaked at #16 on Jazz Charts (1969)

Format: Vinyl/Reel-to-Reel/8-Track

Produced by Creed Taylor

Songs:
  • 1. Casa Forte (Edu Lobo) - 4:17 *
    2. Betwixt & Between (Anthony Dorsey) - 3:53 **
    3. Little Drummer Boy (K. Davis/H. Simeone/H. Onarati) - 2:12 **
    4. Don't Go Love, Don't Go (J.A. Ryan/Jim Lacey) - 3:56 *
    5. Mojave (Antonio Carlos Jobim) - 3:30 **
    6. Stormy (B. Buie/J.B. Cobb) - 2:40 **
    7. Smoky (J.J. Johnson) - 3:20 *
    8. Wichita Lineman (Jim Webb) - 3:32 **
    9. Just A Funky Old Vegetable Bin (Roger Kellaway) - 3:22 ***
    10. Willie, Come Home (J. Miller/R. George) - 3:40 **

    * - arranged by J.J. Johnson
    ** - arranged by Kai Winding
    *** - arranged by Roger Kellaway

    Transitional Music Between Bands:
    Bach Chorale #237
    Plus Nine
    Troika
    Bach Chorale #241
    Bach Chorale #134
    Onion Rings Rondo
    Bach Invention #4
    Bach Invention #1

    All Bach pieces arranged by J.J. Johnson
    All others arranged and composed by Kai Winding except "Troika" which was arranged only by Kai Winding

Musicians:
J.J. Johnson - Trombone
Kai Winding - Trombone
Joe Beck - Guitar
Eric Gale - Guitar (7)
Ron Carter - Bass (1, 3)
Chuck Domanico - Fender Bass (2, 4, 5,6, 9,10)
Russell George - Fender Bass (7)
Chuck Rainey - Fender Bass (8 )
Airto Moreira - Drums (1), Finger Cymbals (3)
Denny Selwell - Drums (2, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10)
Leo Morris - Drums (7, 8 )
Warren Smith - Tambourine (7)
Herbie Hancock - Piano
Roger Kellaway - Electric Clavinette (2, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10)
Charles Covington - Organ (7)
Violins: Fred Buldrini, Lewis Eley, Harry Glickman, Emanuel Green, George Ockner, Raoul Poliakin, Max Pollikoff, Joyce Robbins, Aaron Rosand, Tosha Samaroff, Julius Schacter, Jack Zayde

Traditional Music Personnel:
Kai Winding - Trombone
J.J. Johnson - Trombone
Tony Studd - Bass Trombone
Marvin Stamm - Flugelhorn
Paul Ingraham - French Horn
Stuart Scharf - Guitar


Recorded at Van Gelder Studios
Rudy Van Gelder, Engineer
Recorded October 22, 29; November 15, 26; December 5, 1968
Traditional music recorded on January 9, 1969

Cover Photographs by Pete Turner
Album Design by Sam Antupit


Capt. Bacardi
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Captain Bacardi

Well-Known Member
Moderator
Thread Starter
This is an album that I try to like a lot, but it just doesn't quite make it all the time. The trombonists play great, as usual, and the Bach interludes between songs is an intriguing idea, especially for Creed Taylor. But the songs just don't quite jell together. It starts off nicely with "Casa Forte", and Joe Beck gets some room to wail away on guitar on several tunes. But it seems they weren't quite sure whether to be a jazz group or a rock group. I just don't think the world is ready for rock-n-roll trombonists. :wink: That said, the musicians are great, but the overall feel of the album just didn't do it for me. Still, I'd like to see this and Israel released together. And it wouldn't hurt to throw in Stonebones as well. :cool:

I only have the mono version of this album (SP 2016), and I blew a chance to get several copies at the last record show. That's what happens when you have a large collection and lose track of exactly what you have. Must be the onset of Alzheimer's. :|


Capt. Bacardi
 

William

New Member
I've never heard this album, but I wish someone would hurry up and release it on CD already! It has one of the most beautiful and evocative LP covers I've ever seen, and the whole idea of the album has always intrigued me.

The Bach interludes sound as if they'd fit right in with the A&M/CTi style, considering the baroque sounds on various Wes Montgomery and George Benson albums on Verve and A&M/CTi.

(And any song with a title like "Just A Funky Old Vegetable Bin" has to be worth hearing!)


- William
 

Dave

Well-Known Member
I'd call this J.J. Johnson & Kai Winding's attempt at making an "Early Electric-Jazz-Rock-Fusion Outing". The transitional music pieces (mostly Bach compositions) make it real interesting, too. As does bringing in more studio heavies like guitarist Joe Beck, bassist Chuck Domanico, drummer Denny Seiwell and keyboardist Roger Kellaway. I think I can remember hearing it, though a year or more after it came out.

Casa Forte is given a very strong treatment here!

Betwixt & Between is very monumentous --allowing a solo for each musician.

Little Drummer Boy is made into a nifty lil' number that it "Doesn't Have To Be Christmas" to be neat to hear.

Don't Go Love, Don't Go is a very sly, swingin' and modal Blues number Joe Beck just picks out notes from his guitar at while the two principals blow away their 'bones to. Could the "Ryan" who wrote it be session guitarist JIM Ryan, and this be from a New York area Rock Group he was in?

Mojave sounds like someone brought over and played a copy of Jobim's Wave and found this was an easy piece to do without spoiling the original. Or should they have done a remake of "Captain Bacardi"?

Stormy sure won't get dated here. It goes well with the rest of the album, avoiding the Muzak quality even the most Jazziest cats would probably give it.

Smoky, a Johnson-penned piece, is probably an Israel outtake. Its musician line-up, such as guitarist Eric Gale are present only on this track.

Wichita Lineman definitely does Glen Campbell, Sergio Mendes and others who have done it a real "One Better". Dig the crashing strings and Joe Beck's guitar fills with Kai and J.J. carrying this number is just the right direction.

Just A Funky Old Vegetable Bin has Kellaway pounding away at his electric piano and clavinet (when was the last time you ever heard THAT keyboard played on an album?) and Beck defining a real Jazz-Rock merger, with Johnson & Winding adapting themselves to something a far cry from their impulse! debut This Could Be The Start Of Something, to name an example.

Willie, Come Home seems to be another number from an East Coast Rock Band. Russell George, I presume? More of Beck's bluesy guitar work with Denny Seiwell (later with Paul McCartney's wings) banging away at his drums. Jazz-Rock is really given quite a definition here and this is probably the just the start!

Definitely Israel's Polar Opposite!

Dave :D
 

seashorepiano

Active Member
In a word, this album is incredible. IMHO, it's the best, oddest, most delightful album in the entire A&M/CTi series.

"Casa Forte" blows any other version I've heard out of the water, as does "Mojave." It definitely does Sergio Mendes and Jobim "one better"! "Betwixt & Between" is a nifty jazz-rock number with overdriven fuzz guitar from Joe Beck.

My favorite tracks: probably "Don't Go Love, Don't Go," "Stormy," "Smoky" and "Willie, Come Home." I think there was an error in the credits on "Don't Go Love..." because I hear electric piano, but no clavinette. But damn, Kellaway really hammers away on that thing during most of the numbers, and uses some funky distortion effects throughout.

"Little Drummer Boy"... As much as it's a pleasant song, it seems misplaced here. I suppose it wouldn't bother me as much if JJ or Kai improvised on it... but they don't. They play some choruses straight through, with finger cymbal and quiet strings, and that's it. I just can't figure it out.

"Smoky" has excellent organ coming from Charles Covington, who also appeared on George Benson's Shape of Things to Come and the two trombones filtered through a Varitone amplifier. A weird, muffled, eerie sound; very dated, but still enjoyable listening.

Everything else is great, including all the unusual transition music. Good throwback to baroque instrumentation; the best interludes are "Plus Nine" and "Onion Rings Rondo." Five stars.
 

RichardWarner

Well-Known Member
Contributor
And so...does the famed third album from this pair, Stonebone, actually exist? AllMusic says it was, indeed, released in Japan and is the best of the three. Yet, even A&M/CTI/Pete Turner enthusiast Doug Payne hasn't been to find the cover to post on his Web site or in Pete Turner's book.
 

LPJim

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Moderator
The All-Music jazz guidebook says STONEBONE exists and everyone is "waiting for A&M to come to its senses" and release it. George Benson and Herbie Hancock were among the guest artists.
I hope the people at A&M/Verve see the write-up in that book.
JB

For track information on STONEBONE see:


www.dougpayne.com/ctid3k.htm#stonebone
 

Dave

Well-Known Member
In a 'Private Message' about this album said:
Betwixt & Between is VERY addicting! I really wish I opened it and gave it a spin! (--After Telling you it WASN'T Still-Sealed...) :bigevil:

I sense a certain "destructiveness" among these musicians, playing their @$$'s off and probably doing some heavy SMOKING! :bandit: And whatever Drinking their lifestyles can "seriously allow"...! :twitchy:

"Mojave" and even "Casa Forte" are better done here than by their A&M Brasilian Counterparts, Jobim and Mendes... I think J&K blow their versions right off the rocks!! --The same goes for Jimmy Webb's "Wichita Lineman" with guitarist Joe Beck, doing some high-powered sparring with the two!
highfive.gif


"Stormy" joins the ranks of Gabor Szabo's many remakes of, first recorded on his final '60's LP, 1969 on Skye, before recording it Live, in Concert, on Live With Charles Lloyd on Blue Thumb and presumably dated in 1978 recording it again on his next-to-final LP Belsta River recorded on the Four Leaf label in Sweden ...

It's a wonder how this being Fusion, leaning more towards Rock, (as the numbers, "Betwixt & Between", "Don't Go Love, Don't Go", (--Wonder what "Words" to this one would be like?) "(Just A) Funky Old Vegetable Bin" and "Willie, Please Come Home" testify) and less towards Jazz, just wasn't released as a Regular A&M, much like Roger Kellaway's releases; guess J & K just owed A&M's CTi-Division one more LP... "Smokey" seems to have some personnel left-over from Israel, while "Little Drummer Boy" suggests the two could'a or should'a made a Christmas LP before their passing...!
holidaylight.gif
xmastree.gif
snowman.gif
rudy.gif


Speaking of which, Melanie's MADRUGADA has some arrangements and keyboard playing by Roger Kellaway (though nothing as big of a hit as "Lay Down (Candles In The Rain)" or "Brand New Key"...) and features a remake of "I Think It's Gonna Rain Today" (Randy Newman orig., covered by many), The Rolling Stones' "Wild Horses" (and done Very Long like the Original and The Flying Burrito Brothers' version) and Jim Croce's "Lover's Cross", as well as the Woody Guthrie Folk-turned-Rock piece, "Pretty Boy Floyd" and a couple of Melanie Originals, "Love To Lose Again" (A "Candles In The Rain-soundalike) and "The Actress"... An LP on her own Neighborhood label, circa 1973, that is worth picking up... (I bought several copies to get a decent one, condition-wise!)

"Betwixt & Between" as the title, basically refers to the "Transitional Numbers" between the songs, and if only Stonebones (which features "Don'cha Hear Me Calling To You" done by George Benson on his 2nd A&M/CTi album, Tell It Like It Is...) would ever get Issued--or rather, Re-Issued!--here...!



Dave
 

Captain Bacardi

Well-Known Member
Moderator
Thread Starter
I have this LP as a mono promo as well as a Japanese stereo version which I just found last year. It's a very uneven album to me. For me the highlights are "Casa Forte", "Don't Go Love, Don't Go" and "Smoky". But I really hated the cover tunes as "Stormy" and "Wichita Lineman". I thought these were very corny arrangements. There really wasn't a whole lot of soloing that grabbed my attention, just bits and pieces here and there. Definitely not the K & JJ that I usually enjoy. 3 stars.

Actually, I think it would've been interesting to hear an album of the classical stuff that was in between the songs - but the full versions, not the mini version.



Capt. Bacardi
 

seashorepiano

Active Member
"Smoky" is a great song. The electric amplifiers give J & K this unsettling, muffled effect that sounds almost like they're playing the 'bones inside styrofoam. I'll agree that "Wichita Lineman" is a little worn-out, but I love "Stormy." Isn't much of a jazz number but has a biting clavinet and drum beat. A foretaste of disco, if you will! :neutral:

The classical numbers are interesting... definitely would have been nice to see more "expansiveness" on some of the Bach chorales. But my favorite "transitional piece" is Plus Nine. It's just completely out there, unrelated to anything else anywhere on the album, and then there's that segue into Little Drummer Boy. There's this sudden swing from huge dissonance to a sedated Christmas song...
 

Dave

Well-Known Member
Denny Seiwell - Drums: "Betwixt & Between" (2), "Don't Go Love, Don't Go" (4), "Mojave" (5), "Stormy" (6), "Just A Funky Old Vegetable Bin" (9), "Willie, Come Home" (10)

--Who would later go on to being the famed drummer in Paul McCartney & Wings on such "heroic" efforts, such as Ram, Wildlife, Red Rose Speedway, Venus & Mars, Wings Over America, London Town and Wings At The Speed Of Sound...!!! :neutral:inkshield:



Dave
 

Dave

Well-Known Member
Captain Bacardi said:
Joe English was the drummer on the Wings Over America album.



Capt. Bacardi


--Whoops, you're right!!! --And on ...Speed Of Sound, too...!



Dave

...Need to look at the backs of those covers (and inside Gatefolds) more CAREFULLY!!!
 

seashorepiano

Active Member
"Just a Funky Old Vegetable Bin" and "Willie, Come Home" remind me of Sanford & Son. I can picture Fred now, hobbling around his living room, heckling Esther. Rest in peace, Redd Foxx.
 

Dave

Well-Known Member
seashorepiano said:
..."Just a Funky Old Vegetable Bin" and "Willie, Come Home" remind me of Sanford & Son...


Yeah, too bad neither of those two made it to the Series; if only Quincy Jones hadn't beaten these two to doing the Theme Song ("Streetbeater") as well as the little background music and very few "play-on"/"play-off"'s you heard on the show...


--Now how 'bout a little bit of "Trombone Synthesis"...??!! :bigevil: :wink:



Dave
 

RichardWarner

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Gosh, not much to say about this one. The Pete Turner cover photo was taken from the back seat of a cab in New York City.

The classical bridges between songs always struck me as sort of "...hey...why don't we..." Israel is, in my opinion, a stronger album.

And of course, the question follows about perhaps the most mysterious of all A&M albums: their third effort called "Stonebone," allegedly released only in Japan, which no one seems to have ever seen or heard heard, except for All Music Guide's Richard Ginell.

He wrote: "the fact is that this is the best album of the three -- and the one closest in touch with the crucial improvisatory impulse of jazz. It is a prototype of the CTI formula of the '70s, allowing first-class jazz musicians to groove at length with minimal shaping on the production end to give these tracks drama...If you somehow stumble upon this superb import, grab it or hope that A&M comes to its senses and lets you hear it someday."
 

RichardWarner

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I spoke too soon in my most recent post. The first sighting ever (as far as I have seen, anyway) of the A&M/CTI effort by Kai Winding and J.J. Johnson called Stonebone.

It does exist!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7t6LrxfSR0g/SUcp9dJkUDI/AAAAAAAAIUg/aggDFQM80SY/s1600-h/J%26K(Stonebone,front).jpg
 

Captain Bacardi

Well-Known Member
Moderator
Thread Starter
Wow, that's the first time I had ever seen the cover for Stonebone. I've been looking for this album for 20 years and haven't even had a nibble of finding it.



Capt. Bacardi
 

Mr Bill

Gentlemanly Curmudgeon
Staff member
Moderator
Great cover! I searched for it every time I hit Japan including two years attached to USS Blue Ridge (LCC 19) with no luck... Maybe one of these days I'll find it or some wonk at Uni will have the wisdom to reissue it....

--Mr Bill
 

seashorepiano

Active Member
This is amazing. What's interesting is that it plays off the Betwixt & Between gatefold a bit, with the gray background and the vertical rectangle with a picture, this time moved to the left and wrapping halfway around the back. The assisting performers are listed prominently along the right-hand side, which hasn't appeared (to my memory) on any other release in this series.

Getting back to the album... ol' Dave W. and I have gone on extensively about it, over PM and on the previous threads. I stand by what I said there.
 

Captain Bacardi

Well-Known Member
Moderator
Thread Starter
Back to this album...

I really want to like it, but it's rather difficult at times. The brief classical interludes are an interesting concept, but they're the least of the problem. It seems that Taylor is trying to "rock out" a bit with JJ & Kai, and it really doesn't work. They simply don't get a chance to blow. There's bits and pieces here and there, but the bonemen never get a chance to show their stuff. There's a couple of nice bits, such as "Don't Go Love, Don't Go" as well as Jobim's "Mojave". But the fuzz tone guitars and strings throughout just don't work. Another reason to put on some of JJ & Kai's classic albums from the Impulse and Bethlehem labels.



Capt. Bacardi
 

rickster

New Member
I agree for the most part, Captain, but it DOES contain the absolute BEST instrumental cover of Edu Lobo's "Casa Forte" ever recorded. It is hot , and it is tight. Wonderful arrangement.
 

JOv2

Well-Known Member
I still can't find a decent copy of this one...

(I just wish the powers in Japan would release the whole dag nabbin A&M/CTi catalogue in one swoop. Most of the 30-or-so titles are above-average quality releases...)
 

Dave

Well-Known Member
Ambition can be a very subjective thing, as far as results go... While it may work you out of one formula, it can work you into another, often improving your skills and branching out into more interesting concepts, or likely to make your musical worth decline...

Staying in safe territory keeps things familiar, though at times, predictable... And the risks SHOULD be considered "worth taking", if in the long run avoiding them finds you making "the biggest one of all"...

What could seem to have been the case with these guys, as their first entry finds a fairly humble effort, sticking close & true to their native genre... Here, on their second album, however, witness JJ & K stretching out into more adventurous, fusion-like territory...

Kicking out the jams on the harder pieces, while still giving out a kick on the slower numbers... In short, a definitive merger of rock and jazz, and in the former, merely a result of showcasing the contributions of the supporting musicians, while at least the latter, maintains the tried-tested-and-true approach of the 'bones, still retaining the much more traditional sound...

But without directly comparing the two works, each has a well-versed and precisely engineered force, all its own...



Dave
 
Top Bottom