Neil Sedaka Incident in 1975 - 2 Questions
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song4u
Well-Known Member
That's awesome that you got to tell her in person! I so wish I could have done that.
Dave
Well-Known Member
There were a lot of run-away hits in the '70's & mostly ballads...
Barry Manilow specialized in that sort of thing & no surprise, that The Carpenters took to "Can't Smile Without You", nearly quickly as it came...
Wonder what the chances if it were Manilow instead of Sedaka touring w/ them, instead?
-- Dave
Barry Manilow specialized in that sort of thing & no surprise, that The Carpenters took to "Can't Smile Without You", nearly quickly as it came...
Wonder what the chances if it were Manilow instead of Sedaka touring w/ them, instead?
-- Dave
byline
Well-Known Member
Oh, the irony ... since he was Bette Midler's pianist.
Dave
Well-Known Member
Cover versions of "Solitaire", found; a correction, or two needed above:
- Clay Aiken
- Jann Arden
- Shirley Bassey
- Beat Crusaders
- Sheryl Crow
- Gallon Drunk
- Johnny Goudie
- Sissel Kyrkjebø
- Johnny Mathis
- Joe McElderry
- Nana Mouskouri
- Jane Olivor
- Patricia Paay #24 (Netherlands) 1983
- Elvis Presley
- The Searchers
- Westlife
- Roger Whittaker
- Andy Williams
- Marco T Spanish version
Don't forget, in the '80's Laura Brannigan had a song by the same name, running at a bit faster "Techno" pace...
-- Dave
Dave
Well-Known Member
Ah, silly of me! Mr. "Because my sappy songs made $million$!" Manilow...
The way Neil was full o' himself...--as it's been said, maybe Barry would probably be, too...
Paul Anka?
-- Dave
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BarryT60
Well-Known Member
let him finish out the run at that venue, and cut him lose afterward. Not that very night. and have the manager do it. (covering for the artist) That's one of the reasons that get paid the big bucks.
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BarryT60
Well-Known Member
the song Solitaire was really tied with Desperado as what should have been the next single behind Only Yesterday. It's a masterpiece, for sure... ( I really don't see any of the other songs as singles on that album - even though its my favorite.)
But on closer examination, think about it.... we were just jumping into Disco.... (Jive Talkin', Nights On Broadway).... ballads could clearly be strong if there was a beat - something to hold onto on the dance floor... The versus on Solitaire were NON-Beat driven. Beautiful, but dead in terms of a rhythm track... Similarly to the way I Need To Be In Love was arranged. No back-beat and no rhythm for a good slow dance... I think that's what kept it from the top 10.
Desperado - had a beat all the way through - as did YOU on AKOH. Both of these could have been stronger singles - because the dance venues would have leaned more into them. giving them more of a reason to be... IMHO...
But on closer examination, think about it.... we were just jumping into Disco.... (Jive Talkin', Nights On Broadway).... ballads could clearly be strong if there was a beat - something to hold onto on the dance floor... The versus on Solitaire were NON-Beat driven. Beautiful, but dead in terms of a rhythm track... Similarly to the way I Need To Be In Love was arranged. No back-beat and no rhythm for a good slow dance... I think that's what kept it from the top 10.
Desperado - had a beat all the way through - as did YOU on AKOH. Both of these could have been stronger singles - because the dance venues would have leaned more into them. giving them more of a reason to be... IMHO...
Jamesj75
Well-Known Member
I have commented on this matter here before. At the risk of being repetitive, I will add my take again only because I wish to defend my unabashed, unapologetic allegiance to "Solitaire." In fact, I consider it my absolute favorite Carpenters' song. (Sure, there are quite a few close candidates in the running.) I like it so much because I find it to be perhaps Karen's best vocal performance. I also like the arrangement of the song, particularly in its original single version.
I do understand the points to the contrary. Something we often see at this website are divergent views regarding favorite or least favorite albums and songs, which is to be expected. And it's great to read these varied viewpoints. What links us, though, is our appreciation for the Carpenters and their music.
One thing to keep in mind is how a song relates to the listener with regard to the listener's age and situation when a particular song is released. In that vein, the albums Horizon and A Kind of Hush hold a special place for me personally and represent the halcyon days. I am extremely partial to the singles and album cuts from those two releases. Sometimes a song transports you to a different time and place. It helps you relive your youth; your "coming of age" comes alive again for a few brief moments. It brings back people into your psyche from long ago. It soothes you. It makes you smile...
I do understand the points to the contrary. Something we often see at this website are divergent views regarding favorite or least favorite albums and songs, which is to be expected. And it's great to read these varied viewpoints. What links us, though, is our appreciation for the Carpenters and their music.
One thing to keep in mind is how a song relates to the listener with regard to the listener's age and situation when a particular song is released. In that vein, the albums Horizon and A Kind of Hush hold a special place for me personally and represent the halcyon days. I am extremely partial to the singles and album cuts from those two releases. Sometimes a song transports you to a different time and place. It helps you relive your youth; your "coming of age" comes alive again for a few brief moments. It brings back people into your psyche from long ago. It soothes you. It makes you smile...
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I always wondered why Richard didn't include "Solitaire" on the "Yesterday Once More" set in 1985. It's one of their finest recordings-and was a top-20 hit. Yet, He omitted "Solitaire" in favor of inferior tracks(and lesser or non-hits) such as "Occupants","Sweet Sweet Smile" and "Those Good Old Dreams".
"Solitaire" had been included in the UK predecessor, YESTERDAY ONCE MORE, yet, as you say, it was removed for the full US configuration. On the UK version, the song appears on the second disc in a rather odd progression of songs:
2. Calling Occupants Of Interplanetary Craft
3. Solitaire
4. On The Balcony Of The Casa Rosada / Don't Cry For Me Argentina
So you've got the rather strange "Calling Occupants" followed by the slow, sullen "Solitaire", then we launch into the noisy Balcony track.
Harry
Wow, that is a very odd order. Never paid attention to it, but it's too many LONG songs in a row.
I always thought Richard didn't include 'Solitaire' on 'Classics'/'Yesterday Once More' because that song was a bit of a thorn in their side at the time. For starters, it was released just as Karen's illness was manifesting itself. And Neil Sedaka wrote it, which was rather ironic. And that's precisely when the flare-up with Sedaka occurred in Vegas.
It also didn't hit the top 20 for the first time since 'Ticket To Ride'. That certainly didn't go over well, considering how competitive the Carpenters were regarding chart figures. Finally, Karen just didn't like it all that much. I'm sure all of that weighed in his decision to not include it.
Richard obviously had a change of heart over the years, as 'Solitaire' is included on virtually all compilations nowadays, and for good reason. It's one of Karen's BEST EVER.
I always thought Richard didn't include 'Solitaire' on 'Classics'/'Yesterday Once More' because that song was a bit of a thorn in their side at the time. For starters, it was released just as Karen's illness was manifesting itself. And Neil Sedaka wrote it, which was rather ironic. And that's precisely when the flare-up with Sedaka occurred in Vegas.
It also didn't hit the top 20 for the first time since 'Ticket To Ride'. That certainly didn't go over well, considering how competitive the Carpenters were regarding chart figures. Finally, Karen just didn't like it all that much. I'm sure all of that weighed in his decision to not include it.
Richard obviously had a change of heart over the years, as 'Solitaire' is included on virtually all compilations nowadays, and for good reason. It's one of Karen's BEST EVER.
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Two issues of protocol outside of Richard's control - both related - were, I believe, critical factors in the Carpenters' fallout with Sedaka:
(i) Such a legendary artist and seasoned performer as Neil Sedaka should never have been billed as the 'opening' act - both acts needed to be given equal status. This would have given Sedaka - most importantly in Richard's mind - permission to do and say whatever he wanted, without any cause for embarrassment. Blame that on inexperienced management.
(ii) To those "professional" music critics who would think a Cox's Orange Pippin should be ridiculed because it tastes nothing like an orange, this was the perfect opportunity for those who misunderstood the Carpenters to bring the duo down.
I find the New York Daily News headline "Sedaka Steals Show from Carpenters" horrifying. Freedom of the press is one thing, but with that freedom comes an obligation to conform to a set of unwritten rules, expected of those who are in such position of influence. Yet that blunt headline is a professional putdown not even worthy of the local rag.
Whatever the truth of the matter, a fair and professional arts reviewer would, through thoughtful use of language, merely allude to that fact in the body of his critique. Consider: Were the C's so bad that they didn't match audience expectations in the absence of one such as Sedaka? Were they performing well below their own standards? Had they by now become such an embarrassment to their audience that somebody in the industry just had to had to tell them straight? Of course not.
The Carpenters' appeal was never due to showmanship. How poor then of the NYDN editor to allow this headline, which only added to the rightful frustration that had been building up in Richard and Karen over the years.
(i) Such a legendary artist and seasoned performer as Neil Sedaka should never have been billed as the 'opening' act - both acts needed to be given equal status. This would have given Sedaka - most importantly in Richard's mind - permission to do and say whatever he wanted, without any cause for embarrassment. Blame that on inexperienced management.
(ii) To those "professional" music critics who would think a Cox's Orange Pippin should be ridiculed because it tastes nothing like an orange, this was the perfect opportunity for those who misunderstood the Carpenters to bring the duo down.
I find the New York Daily News headline "Sedaka Steals Show from Carpenters" horrifying. Freedom of the press is one thing, but with that freedom comes an obligation to conform to a set of unwritten rules, expected of those who are in such position of influence. Yet that blunt headline is a professional putdown not even worthy of the local rag.
Whatever the truth of the matter, a fair and professional arts reviewer would, through thoughtful use of language, merely allude to that fact in the body of his critique. Consider: Were the C's so bad that they didn't match audience expectations in the absence of one such as Sedaka? Were they performing well below their own standards? Had they by now become such an embarrassment to their audience that somebody in the industry just had to had to tell them straight? Of course not.
The Carpenters' appeal was never due to showmanship. How poor then of the NYDN editor to allow this headline, which only added to the rightful frustration that had been building up in Richard and Karen over the years.
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newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Since when did newspapers (especially tabloids) conform to any rules at all? It's well known that one or two bad reviews on Broadway can be the death knell for a show or musical before it's even gotten underway. Journalists don't care about telling the truth and I think the headline is a pretty accurate summary of the whole situation. Neil was getting standing ovations from an audience who were probably amazed to find they were getting two outstanding shows for the price of one. I think the 1976 shows - despite the makeover they got - were dull. The only highlight for me was Karen's drum solo. The 'Grease' section was contrived and cheesy, not hip (whoever told Karen to wear those oversized cone boobs wants their head examined). To have lacklustre songs like 'From This Moment On' in there, while Neil was rocking the aisles with his latest hit 'Laughter In The Rain' shows you how mismatched they were. Not their fault as many have said, but there you go.
Certainly, I've no reason to doubt that what you say is accurate. But it would be highly offensive, and thus inappropriate, for a major paper to use this summary as a headline to an arts or entertainment review. The show wasn't undertaken as a 'competition', but now the newspaper calls it as if it were. Maybe the article belongs on the Sports pages!
"Sedaka Sparkles in Carpenters Show" would have conveyed the same message without rubbing it in. It's positive/neutral rather than a zero-sum win/loss. Being a tabloid doesn't excuse poor etiquette.
"Sedaka Sparkles in Carpenters Show" would have conveyed the same message without rubbing it in. It's positive/neutral rather than a zero-sum win/loss. Being a tabloid doesn't excuse poor etiquette.
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Sedaka was an opening act for one reason only: He wasn't as "big" as the Carpenters. He was in his second career, his "legendary" status notwithstanding. He had not reached "superstar" status (and I think it's arguable that he never reached anywhere near Carpenters level). Many of his fans from the 70s, which includes me, hardly knew anything about his "first" career when he hit the charts with "Laughter in the Rain." I'd heard of him before and had heard "Calendar Girl" but that was about it. His spot as an opening act was appropriate.
I've seen many shows over the years where the opening act was better than the headliner.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
It doesn't help that some writers never liked the Carpenters anyway! Another fact is that Neil Sedaka is the home town boy, so from that perspective alone it does make the New York Daily News headline perhaps a little more understandable.
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As much as they screwed up in Vegas, ultimately, Carpenters got the last laugh. Karen's talent alone eclipses anything he ever attempted. Carpenters have outsold him drastically and their songs are played far more than his handful of hits on satellite radio. Then there's Christmastime. Where's Neil's Christmas classic again? Oh, wait....he never recorded one.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
As much as they screwed up in Vegas, ultimately, Carpenters got the last laugh. Karen's talent alone eclipses anything he ever attempted. Carpenters have outsold him drastically and their songs are played far more than his handful of hits on satellite radio. Then there's Christmastime. Where's Neil's Christmas classic again? Oh, wait....he never recorded one.
I think "handful of hits" is selling him a bit short. He's actually had more than 20 top 40 hits in the US during his career and released about three times as many albums. I'd argue that songs like 'The Hungry Years', 'Laughter In The Rain' and the ballad version of 'Breaking Up Is Hard To Do' are as good as the Carpenters in their heyday. He may not have been as big as the Carpenters but he had a solid track record in the decade before the Carpenters broke and was too strong to be paired with them as their opening act in Vegas, which was nobody's fault but Carpenters' management.
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GaryAlan
Well-Known Member
2010 Interview with Sedaka (Source http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3963242,00.html) :
Later on you had a concert tour with the Carpenters, and they kicked you out.
"What happened was that they asked me to open for them, so I went up for 30 or 40 minutes, made the audience wild, and every time they wouldn't stop applauding and asking for me. In addition, the critics were very restrained about them and enthusiastic about me. They wrote, 'Sedaka is the surprise of the year.' In the end Richard Carpenter flew into a rage and wanted to fire me."
It was one of their last tours. Several years later, Karen Carpenter died from heart failure after suffering from anorexia for years.
"She was simply wonderful. She would never sweat on stage, even when we performed outside and it was very, very hot.
She had an unusual clear voice. Really amazing."
Did you ever get to talk to her about her slimness?
"No, never. It's personal."
Did you feel she was going through something strange?
"I liked her, but I never brought it up. It was too personal."
Later on you had a concert tour with the Carpenters, and they kicked you out.
"What happened was that they asked me to open for them, so I went up for 30 or 40 minutes, made the audience wild, and every time they wouldn't stop applauding and asking for me. In addition, the critics were very restrained about them and enthusiastic about me. They wrote, 'Sedaka is the surprise of the year.' In the end Richard Carpenter flew into a rage and wanted to fire me."
It was one of their last tours. Several years later, Karen Carpenter died from heart failure after suffering from anorexia for years.
"She was simply wonderful. She would never sweat on stage, even when we performed outside and it was very, very hot.
She had an unusual clear voice. Really amazing."
Did you ever get to talk to her about her slimness?
"No, never. It's personal."
Did you feel she was going through something strange?
"I liked her, but I never brought it up. It was too personal."
I'm not taking away from his success, as I know he had a lot of hits. But I just feel like his ego (and Richard's) created a monstrous situation. I couldn't really stomach him after that incident. He took a bad situation and scored with it in the press, when he was in the wrong on several counts. And Richard handled it poorly, as well.
Neil did write a lot of great songs, though. And 'Bad Blood' with Elton John was quite good, which was a big hit in '75. And he gave us 'Solitaire', which turned into quite a gift for all of us once Karen performed it.
Neil did write a lot of great songs, though. And 'Bad Blood' with Elton John was quite good, which was a big hit in '75. And he gave us 'Solitaire', which turned into quite a gift for all of us once Karen performed it.
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