question about a single

[walterphil]

flipping thru my vast piles of singles last month
i came across one i wanted to ask you guys about

looks like a promo maybe?
or maybe just an earl A & M release.

its the lonely bull b/w acapulco 1922
by the tjuana brass
and in smaller type underneath "featuring herb alpert."

its beige with black type with no graphics
or the familiar A & M logo.

the A & M logo it does have is on the left hand side and is in
a simple script. its minty mint but has some writing on it

thanks
walt

 

[Rudy]

That's a first pressing "Lonely Bull". I have one myself. In fact, it was pressed off-center and plays a little odd (I have to remove the 45RPM adapter and nudge it appropriately to get it to play well), but it is a very good sounding single, nicely pressed, and it's on the better vinyl vs. the cheaper styrene of later A&M singles. This appears to be a common version though, if you figure it became A&M's first hit, before they had a permanent logo.

 

[walterphil]

thanks rudy.
if you want, next time i go to jerry's
i'll take a look for some of those mono lp pressings for you.

they'll be cheap!

xxx
walt

 

[W.B.]

Actually, the vinyl pressings of "The Lonely Bull" / "Acapulco 1922" I've seen were made by RCA Victor Custom Records of Rockaway, N.J. (probably their Indianapolis, Ind. plant made some copies as well?). Most of the label copy artwork on this particular 45 were imported from a printer in Los Angeles that handled such duties for the Monarch "Circle MR" pressing plant which made the styrene copies of this debut of the A&M label. There is one other noticeable difference, though. The Monarch copies had a "CAR-" prefix next to the matrix number on each side (an obvious reference to the label's original name), whereas on RCA pressings the typesetters at the respective factories did their own modifications to the label copy artworks with the matrix prefix on the 3 o'clock side of the label changed to "A&M." To my knowledge, Columbia didn't press for A&M until after mid-1963 (#716 being among the first) -- and after pressing for A&M in its first year of operation (I also have an RCA-pressed copy of the TJB's "Marching Thru Madrid" / "Struttin' With Maria", #706, by which time the A&M logo was already in place, albeit always at 9 o'clock instead of 12 o'clock on the first few years' worth of LP labels), RCA wouldn't produce other stock copies (non-record club) for them until Mr. Alpert and Mr. Moss arranged for the bigger "Nipper" label to handle them on a "distribution" basis in 1979.

I also noticed on "The Lonely Bull" 45 that the label is listed as "A&M Record Co.", which was how it was constituted in its early years. Does anyone know when the label was incorporated (as A&M Records, Inc.)?

 

[Rudy]

Just checked my dead-wax: A&M-1005-1 on the Bull side, and A&M-1006-1 on the Acapulco side. And it's pressed on vinyl. Sounds good once I accomodate the off-center pressing.

 

[W.B.]

Just checked my dead-wax: A&M-1005-1 on the Bull side, and A&M-1006-1 on the Acapulco side. And it's pressed on vinyl. Sounds good once I accomodate the off-center pressing.

Another question: Which letter is stamped at the 12 o'clock position of the wax - R or I? RCA, during the age of vinyl, always indicated where they pressed their records. If it's stamped "R," then it was made in Rockaway, N.J. If it has an "I," then it's from Indianapolis, Ind. (To date, I haven't seen any "H" pressings from RCA's Hollywood plant of this single.)

 

[Rudy]

Aaah, neat, I wondered if that "R" meant anything. It's opposite the matrix number written in the dead wax.

 

[W.B.]

Aaah, neat, I wondered if that "R" meant anything. It's opposite the matrix number written in the dead wax.

Based upon my points, it sure does (in other words, your copy came from Rockaway, NJ). But then again, it figures -- RCA was among the worst in terms of turning out off-center discs, especially the 45's (I have quite a few RCA releases and RCA pressings in my collection, so I can attest to that). So was Capitol in the 1970's, ditto for MCA.

 

[alpertfan]

W.B. wrote: Actually, the vinyl pressings of "The Lonely Bull"/Acapulco 1922" I've seen were made by RCA Victor Custom Records of Rockaway, NJ (probably their Indianapolis, Ind. plant made some copies as well?)


According to Jerry Moss, he and Herb Alpert didn't have enough money to maintain A&M when it first started, so it ended up being a division of their songwriting publishing company, Irving/Rondor, as you probably already know. They very well couldn't have had their own legal logo as of yet. You mention Columbia. I've read that before on other posts. Good thing everything worked out in the end, or the label might have ended up a subsidiary of another company, but was that first single, "The Lonely Bull" they saved it, believe it or not. The full story is on The Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass Fan Club Web Site: www.members.aol.com/lansong/HERBALPE.HTM.

 

[davybaby]

New member, first-time poster here; please forgive any errors in posting.

I found my way to the site trying to find information on the unreleased Phil Spector production "Baby Don't You Get Crazy" by Checkmates Ltd., originally scheduled for release as A&M 1006. so I found the post quoted below interesting. Why would "the Acapulco side" bear that number in the runoff groove? Does that side actually play "Acapulco," or was it a mistake pressing that actually plays the other song?

Just checked my dead-wax: A&M-1005-1 on the Bull side, and A&M-1006-1 on the Acapulco side. And it's pressed on vinyl. Sounds good once I accomodate the off-center pressing.

 

[Rudy]

Welcome aboard!

The matrix numbers on the record don't often correspond to the single's catalog number. Either that, or numbers could be reassigned. Was the Checkmates single actually released as 1006, or did it come out later under a different number? (I don't have any of my notes handy--we've just moved and are still living out of boxes. )

If someone has the Checkmates single, they could probably give you the matrix numbers from the runout groove and we could see which numbers match up.

Yes, my single plays "Acapulco 1922"...and pressed on early vinyl, it sounds really good.

 

[Harry]

New member, first-time poster here; please forgive any errors in posting.

I found my way to the site trying to find information on the unreleased Phil Spector production "Baby Don't You Get Crazy" by Checkmates Ltd., originally scheduled for release as A&M 1006. so I found the post quoted below interesting. Why would "the Acapulco side" bear that number in the runoff groove? Does that side actually play "Acapulco," or was it a mistake pressing that actually plays the other song?

Just checked my dead-wax: A&M-1005-1 on the Bull side, and A&M-1006-1 on the Acapulco side. And it's pressed on vinyl. Sounds good once I accomodate the off-center pressing.

I think you might be confusing "catalog" numbers with "matrix" numbers.

Catalog numbers are the numbers assigned to whole records - both sides get the same number.

Matrix numbers are essentially a "side" number. Typically, a record with two sides will have two matrix numbers.

An example is the famous early "Zorba The Greek" / "Tijuana Taxi" single. It's catalog number A&M 787. But if you look in the dead wax or runoff groove, you'll see the matrix numbers of 1168 on the "Zorba" side and 1169 on the "Taxi" side.

In the record being talked about in the above discussion, the 1006 is a matrix number on an old "Lonely Bull" / "Acapulco 1922" single, and doesn't have anything to do with A&M 1006, the Checkmates LTD release.

But, hey, welcome to the forum.

Harry

 

[Harry]

...they said... in STEREO!



Harry

 

[Rudy]

The Olympic Synchronized Forum Posting Team™.

 

[Steve Sidoruk]

Since a picture is worth 1,000 words, I thought I'd add a few thousand. Here is the progression of
U.S. released Lonely Bull singles:

 

[Harry]

In all of my record collecting over the years, I've never owned ANY version of "The Lonely Bull" single, so thanks Steve for picturing them here.

It appears as though "Torro" survived through all of these iterations. My limited Spanish understanding has "bull" as "toro". So I looked up "torro" on the AltaVista translation site and it says that "torro" means "I toast".

So "El Solo Torro" might mean "I toast the lonely".

It's also interesting that the two middle ones pictured above have matrix numbers of CAR-1005. A holdover from the "Carousel" days?

Harry

 

[Steve Sidoruk]

Carnival???

 

[Harry]

That's what I meant. Brain cramp.

Harry

 

[Rudy]

Interesting the first single only shows "A&M 1005" as the matrix. That's the version I own.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

It appears as though "Torro" survived through all of these iterations. My limited Spanish understanding has "bull" as "toro".

I never noticed the extra 'r' on my 45s before. Just something new I learned today.



Capt. Bacardi

 

[A&Mguyfromwayback]

It appears as though "Torro" survived through all of these iterations. My limited Spanish understanding has "bull" as "toro".

I never noticed the extra 'r' on my 45s before. Just something new I learned today.



Capt. Bacardi

I guess the extra 'r' goes with Sergio's extra 'i' from "Mais Que Nada'.

 

[davybaby]

Harry,

You are, of course, correct. I know the difference, but was temporarily overcome by a bad case of wishful thinking!

Thanks for the reply and, everyone else, for the follow-ups.

David

I think you might be confusing "catalog" numbers with "matrix" numbers.

Catalog numbers are the numbers assigned to whole records - both sides get the same number.

Matrix numbers are essentially a "side" number. Typically, a record with two sides will have two matrix numbers.

An example is the famous early "Zorba The Greek" / "Tijuana Taxi" single. It's catalog number A&M 787. But if you look in the dead wax or runoff groove, you'll see the matrix numbers of 1168 on the "Zorba" side and 1169 on the "Taxi" side.

In the record being talked about in the above discussion, the 1006 is a matrix number on an old "Lonely Bull" / "Acapulco 1922" single, and doesn't have anything to do with A&M 1006, the Checkmates LTD release.

But, hey, welcome to the forum.

Harry