Rap for people who don't like Rap

[Mr Bill]

The idea for this topic came to me after reading all the opinions posted in the The Sergio Mendes Forum regarding Timeless. Mainly that most of us weren't to warm to the blend of Bossa/Rap but found after repeated lsitenings some songs actually were pretty good.

Not to mention that for those of us with kids it seems to be working as a great way to expose the kids to Mendes' great music from the golden era (and, in an odd side effect, to get our kids to try to get us to listen to more "current" hip hop music).

While I've never been a big Rap fan myself, I must admit I do have a the category within my collection though in very small numbers -- maybe 30 out of about 4000 records. And though I jokingly like to say "they misspelled the category -- someone left off the 'C'" or I'll quote our very own DJ Bedosti's sig "Rap is to Music what Etch-a-Sketch is to Art" I have found over the years that some Rap is actually not bad and some is even good.

Now having said that, I launch this thread where we folks who are less than enthralled with Rap overall can discuss some of what we DO like about it, such as the new Sergio CD or current A&M acts THe Black-Eyed Peas or The Pussycat Dolls or what have you... So with the next post I'll start it off with the Rap recordings that have appealed to me over the years...

--Mr Bill

 

[Mr Bill]

I kind of enjoyed the first Rap records. The ones by Sugarhill Gang and Grandmaster Flash. These predated the current trend known as "Gangsta Rap" in that the songs were meaningful and were warnings to impressionalble urban youth.

In other words instead of rapping about putting a cap in a cop like Gangsta Rapper Ice-T did (ironic he portrays a cop on TV now) early rap like "The Message" or "White Lines (Don't Do It)" talked of taking responsibility for your own actions or the dangers of cocaine, respectively.

I've found the romantic melodic rap of groups like De La Soul also pleasing to listen to. Same with Will Smith.

WHile Gangster Rap offends at all levels as far as I'm concerned, I find the trite silly pop/rap of Black-Eyed Peas, Pussycat Dolls and Beyonce to be good (sometimes difficult to listen to) poppy fun.

Of course, the roots of Rap warrant mention her: A&M's Melvin Van Peebles was way ahead of his time. And if you've ever heard any of his A&M LPs you'll know what I'm talking about! ANd then there's Scott Johnson who does the opposite in composing music to fit the cadence and tones of natural conversation. Listen to his "John Somebody" and you'll not only be stunned, but you'll understand what I'm talking about...

--Mr Bill

 

[Dave]

Well, it was kind of a trip to hear Debbie Harry of the Rock (and sometimes Pseudo-Heavy Metal/Punk-Wannabe/Mostly Glam-Pop) Group, Blondie rapping on the group's 1980/1981 Signature Hit, "Rapture" which was really recognizing Rap as just being a "Shape of Things To Come", and it was neat how it was really Rock & Rap, merged together...; Thankfully that was also from Rap's early-stages or what is known as something from its "Good Stages"...~ (...Much like how Peter, Paul & Mary's "I Dig Rock 'N' Roll Music" was recognizing [and trivial-izing] the growing importance of Rock...)

Rush did a "Rap" on the title-track of their 1992 album, Roll The Bones (which I had to buy a Cassette of that album for) and there, it seems to deliberatly sound as though the group was "hopping on a latest trend" (Geddy Lee really did the "rap", fed through a Vocoder-effect) and sadly, it seemed that the rest of the album (which DID, indeed, sounded like a REAL Rush album) was a bit lack-luster...

I saw Edgar Winter in concert, years ago, and he added a really Cool Rap to one song, none-other than, the Signature-Instrumental, "Frankenstein" which was really cool enough to make me look up "how it goes..."!

Some Fun Moments...Some Inspiring...Some Truly AWFUL...!

Rap is really taking on the impact that Rock 'N' Roll had over-fifty-years ago (Did We FORGET???!!!) It is causing the same phenomonem that The Beatles had (though I tend to liken this effect to The Rolling Stones...!!) And modern-day rappers are even making movies, too! (See?--That's Why...!) ...Ya either Like It or Ya Don't! :|


Dave

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I have a few CDs which feature rap even though they aren't really rap artists.

The Bingoboys - "The Best of the Bingoboys"
This includes a single called "How to Dance" and is reallly quite a fun listen. Sadly it's out of print now. It's the only Bingoboys album to my knowledge.

AB Logic - "AB Logic"
There was a single from this album called "The Hitman" which is one of the most infectious singles I've ever heard. The album is really a dance record but contains rap on quite a few tunes. "Sea of Love" (not the oldie song but an original) is another fave on the disk. This one is out of print too.

So my favorite rap albums are out of print. That oughta tell you something about me but I'm not sure what.

 

[Rudy]

"Rapper's Delight" by the Sugarhill Gang was one of the first rap songs, and certainly THE first to be recognized nationally. I never did buy that one, but I did get the Grandmaster Flash album that featured "The Message", along with the follow-up 12" single, "Message II (Survival)". And when MC Hammer hit it big, I got his album featuring "Can't Touch This" which sampled Rick James. Other than Sergio's new one, this is about the extent of what I have in terms of rap. One notable thing about those early rap songs is that they got their messages across without having to resort to the "gangsta" style of rapping.

 

[A&Mguyfromwayback]

People who are more versed in these genres make a big distinction that hip-hop is different than rap - but hip-hop contains rap, rigjht? What is Kanye West? Is he good? (As a person, he seriously bugs me, but that's another story... )

 

[Mike]

There’s only one Rap song that works for me: “Walk This Way” with Aerosmith and Run Dmc.

 

[ormandy]

I have one rap CD (Dr. Dre 2001) but I haven't played it since I bought it, used.

 

[LPJim]

Yes, Melvin Van Peebles certainly was a pioneer of the rap art form, and I'd never heard anything like this when I purchased BRER SOUL in '68 'just because it was on A&M.' At that time it would have been termed a fusion of jazz and Beatnik poetry.

Another early rap/pop tune along the lines of Blondie's "Rapture" was from none other than the Rolling Stones' "Miss You" with it's '... walking Central Park, walking in the dark...' segment.

Early '90s obscure rap artists on A&M included The Intelligent Hoodlum and Overweight Pooch, neither of which became super stars but whose discs found their way into the home collection from the dollar cut-out bins.

The kids, particularly my son, collect some rap albums by 50 Cent, Twista -- who we've actually seen in concert --, Kayne West, Nelly ("Ride Wit Me"*) and Onyx ("Slam"). Once in a while I get the "look for this one Dad, but don't buy it at Walmart" routine, and this means "don't buy the clean version."

That's one of those "Things that Make You Go Hmmm ...."

JB

*I actually wrote some alternative lyrics to "Ride With Me" which I've got around somewhere; I'll post when I find them"

JB

 

[Trevor]

I have a CD from A&M circa. 1989 called "House Hallucinates". It has the classic house "rap" song by Maurice called: "This is Acid".

I like the 90s club music that would be half rap with a female chorus, like "KLF" comes to mind.

Don't much care for gansta rap.

"West End Girls" by Pet shop boys considered rap??

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I would call "West End Girls" a pop song with a bit of rap in it. As opposed to a rap song which has a pop hook. "WEG" is melody-based where rap songs are really rhythm based first.

 

[Dave]

I heard Grandmaster Flash's "Adventures of Grandmaster Flash and His Wheels Of Steel" (and I actually LIKED IT...!!) and thought that was one example of Rap/Music Sampling put to good use; good that it grew from there, but from what was Art to ...something a bit "carried away..." I don't think the album is available anymore, but I think it is at least on a "Volume 2" of one of his compilations, unless the Original Album is suddenly re-issued via Import...

"Good Rap" does trade on its "Beat Poetry" origin and The Last Poets were another group that traded on that legacy...


Dave

...Yes, I believe I may have posted SOME (songs and even an "amateur") Rap in KRAYOLA KORNER!, too--just for its OWN sake...!

 

[AM Matt]

The song "Saturday Nite" by Earth, Wind & Fire from late 1976 (from the album "Spirit") is I think the second rap song. ("Walk This Way" by Aerosmith from 1975 was the first). At the end of the song, there is a party when someone passes gas . I am not sure but the 45 single did not have the ending. In the CD reissue from 2001, the alternate mix has the same party at the end. The song "Good Times" by Chic (from 1979) changed rap & hip hop. Matt Clark Sanford, MI

 

[Mr Bill]

The Pet Shop Boys singing style is marginally "rappish" in the same sense Stan Ridgway (of Wall Of Voodoo and solo) would be considered Rap...

To me the difference between Hip Hop and Rap is like the difference between country and western

--Mr Bill
recalling the scene in The Blues Brothers where the waitress tells the boys, "They play both kinds! Country and western!"

 

[Trevor]

With Mike Blakesley comment:

I would call "West End Girls" a pop song with a bit of rap in it. As opposed to a rap song which has a pop hook. "WEG" is melody-based where rap songs are really rhythm based first.

I am starting to realize that I don't much like rap, unless it's a small part of a song.

Mr Bill said:

To me the difference between Hip Hop and Rap is like the difference between country and western

That could be a new post: "What country songs we like." Someone introduced me to Nancy Sinatra's "Country, My Way" and The Poppy Family, and to me they have that Country/Pop sound which is about all I can handle.
I also have Dolly Parton doing a club version (from about 10 years ago) of "Peace Train".
(sorry for getting off the subject)
Did A&M have any Country Western aritsts?

 

[Harry]

Many - in fact the second and fourth act on the label back in the early sixties could be considered country. George McCurn's now-rare album I'M JUST A COUNTRY BOY was the second-ever A&M album.

Then Lucille Starr and Bob Regan, known together as the Canadian Sweethearts definitely had a country flare to their music, though they were both obviously Canadians.

There were many others throughout the years.

Harry

 

[Rudy]

Many - in fact the second and fourth act on the label back in the early sixties could be considered country. George McCurn's now-rare album I'M JUST A COUNTRY BOY was the second-ever A&M album.

Country? McCurn was actually notable on the gospel circuit (nickname "Oopie"), and joined the Ink Spots in 1961 as a bass vocalist. His A&M album was a mixture of pop vocal with jazzy overtones, and gospel. As for A&M #4, Dave Lewis's entry was organ-based jazz.

Lucille Starr and Bob Regan definitely are "country". And an acquired taste...

I have to disagree with the above ideas about Rap, though: Rap, as an actual genre, did not exist for very long prior to "Rapper's Delight". Rap is basically "talking" above a sampled or other basic groove groove with no melodic (and very few harmonic) intentions. In other words, there's barely more than a beat, bass line and minimal synthesizers in the way of the actual rapping. "Rapper's Delight" used the bass line from Chic's "Good Times" as its backing. Talking (or rapid sing-talking, like in Aerosmith's "Walk This Way") through a song does not make it eligible for the Rap genre IMHO. But, "rapping" was definitely done in songs in the 60s: check out Lou Rawls' monologue for "Dead End Street". All-Music has a good description of the track, one of my favorites by Rawls:

Had Lou Rawls not cut another song, this and his "Street Corner Hustler Blues" monologue from his 1966 Lou Rawls Live would have kept him gainfully employed in clubs for life. Lou's depiction of Chicago's hawk (the wind) was stuff that reinforced the city's Windy City moniker. Rawls gives you the 411 on ghetto life from his 1967 Too Much album: learning to fight before you're six and overcoming unbelievable odds to just live another day. "Dead End Street" gives a brief depiction of that life and the hopelessness that so many succumbed to.

Rawls was known for his monologues--some are humorous, but still had that undercurrent of inner-city desperation. Definitely an inspiration for the Rap genre: a "rap" about life in the big city, and how rough it could be. "...the hawk, almighty hawk, Mr. Wind, takes care o' plenty o' business, 'round wintertime...."

 

[Harry]

Well, OK, McCurn isn't REALLY country - but at least the album had "country" in the title. (And I forgot about Dave Lewis, since I don;t have the album.)

Harry

 

[Rudy]

Well, OK, McCurn isn't REALLY country - but at least the album had "country" in the title. (And I forgot about Dave Lewis, since I don;t have the album.)

Country Boy Goes To Town makes you wonder what type of "country" that McCurn is referring to--perhaps, country in a gospel sense. This is more like "gospel meets the West Coast", since he worked with Alpert and Shorty Rogers on the arrangements. In fact, don't country and gospel share some of the same musical roots?

I think that the Dave Lewis album was just a distribution deal--you can tell it was not recorded anywhere near A&M. In fact, the stereo version is more like a "twin track" version with Lewis' organ on one side, and the guitar and drums in the other channel, with reverb added. This is one case where I'd say the mono is superior to the stereo. In comparison, McCurn's has that unmistakable early A&M sound to it, which is amazing since A&M #1 was Lonely Bull which was partially recorded in Alpert's garage!

 

[LPJim]

Before moving to RCA and greater fame Waylon Jennings recorded on A&M in 1963-64, recording some singles that were released at that time plus the DON'T THINK TWICE album (SP 4238) which wasn't released until 1969 and a 1978 Civil War theme album, WHITE MANSIONS (SP/CD 6004).

A&M also pioneered the fusion of rock and country with such artists as Steve Young, writer of "Seven Bridges Road," The Dillard & Clark Expedition and The Flying Buritto Bros.
JB

 

[Mr Bill]

Many Rap purists will insist the sort of "beat poetry" that the likes of Van Peebles, et al did was not as much a precursor to American Rap as the Jamaican and South African (later UK Ska/Two-Tone) art of "toasting" was...

--Mr Bill

 

[jazzdre]

wow!i never in a million years thought that rap would be discussed in this forum!(whodathunk?!!)anyway,i was thirteen and living here in brooklyn when i heard the first raps.the first was 'rapper's delight',which sounded familiar 'cause the sugarhill gang sampled 'good times'by disco supergroup chic.then if i remember correctly,run dmc was the next rap supergroup,then came grandmaster flash and the furious five,with mellie mel as lead rapper with their 'message' raps,then came a host of others like kangol crew,salt n pepa,big daddy kane,and so many others,it's hard to remember now.when the music first came out,i thought it would fade quickly 'cause i was of the mindset,'who'd wanna hear people 'talk' over pre recorded beats'? well,here we are TWENTY SIX years later,and the public is even MORE clamoring for people talking over pre recorded beats!!oh yeah,i also forgot kool moe dee,llcoolj,the fat boys,kurtis blow(the first major rap star)mc lyte,etc. what was i doing when all this was going on?why just getting into jazz.of course!!(and i was a teenager back in those days!!!)

 

[Captain Bacardi]

I don't think much of rap, either. Although one of the first examples of rap (as we know it now) seems to be Frank Zappa's "I'm The Slime" from the early 70's. I'm actually surprised that no rapper has redone that song, especially with what TV is today. And didn't Blondie have the first rap with "Rapture"? Not 100% sure on that one.

There are a couple of rap things that I can live with, especially if it's done with some humor, such as Will Smith. But even that's on a limited basis. I did like Us3's "Cantaloop" and a couple of songs on Quincy Jones' Back On The Block. But I prefer music instead.



Capt. Bacardi

 

[Mike]

...and don't forget, "The Rappin' Duke"

So you think you're bad, with your rap
Well I'll tell ya pilgrim I started the crap
When you were in diapers and wetting the sheets
I was at the Ponderosa rapping to the beat

Da haahh, da haahh
Da ha-hahh ha-hahh haahh

Sure I rustled some cattle and tended the sheep
But my main concern was rapping to the beat
I don't bother nobody I'm a real nice guy
kinda laid back like a, dead fly

Da haahh, da haahh
Da ha-hahh ha-hahh haahh
Da haahh, da haahh
Da ha-hahh ha-hahh haahh

 

[Dave]

I forgot about the Rap on Quincy Jones' "The Dude", the Title-Track from his The Dude album; Haven't heard that in a long time...


Dave

...I got a PhD from makin' it in the street...You're just talkin' trash, if you ain't got my kind'a cash...--"...Trying to remember how it went, Online..."