Unreleased Phil Ochs: SP4283

[Mr Bill]

LPJim and I speculated on this a few years back... IF SP 4283 had been released would it have been Gunfight At Carnegie Hall? Or would it have been another Live Ochs recording.

We both doubt it would've been new material as Ochs' creative energies as far as writing new material goes was more or less drained by the time his last LP, Greatest Hits was released. I'm of the opinion the number was reserved for Gunfight but the A&M brass (no pun intended) decided at that point it was unreleasable, thereby 4283 became one of several "unreleased" recordings of the era.

Anyone familiar with Phil Ochs' story knows that Gunfight did get released eventually, but only in Canada. This was supposedly the result of a gentleman's agreement between Ochs and Jerry Moss. Ochs was, as legend has it, performing at the Troubador and noticed Moss in the audience. It was not unusual for A&M's top people to check out local performances of their artists, and Ochs coaxed Moss on stage and introduced him adding that Jerry was sitting on his latest album. He then made a deal with Moss that more or less let the audience decide whether to release Gunfight or not. Jerry agreed and the the audience was on Phil Ochs' side.

I doubt Ochs counted on a "Canada-only" release and that Moss, when asked about it, probably pointed out that their agreement said nothing of where it would be released...

--Mr Bill
who strongly recommends both Phil Ochs Biographies: Death of a Rebel (2 editions) by Marc Eliot and There But For Fortune by Michael Schumaker...

 

[LPJim]

The other live recording possibility for that self-titled Ochs SP 4283 was THERE AND NOW- LIVE IN VANCOUVER 1968. This recording was licensed by A&M to Rhino Records, which released it on CD in 1990. The album was compiled by Phil's brother, Michael Ochs, who provided photos for the booklet and has been active with other Rhino reissue projects.
T&N contains 14 tracks:
There But for Fortune/ Outside of a Small Circle of Friends/ William Butler Yeats Visits Lincoln Park and Escapes Unscathed/ The Scorpion Departs but Never Returns/ Pleasures of the Harbor/ The World Began in Eden but Ended in L.A./ The Bells/ The Highwayman/ I Kill Therefore I Am/ The Doll House/ Another Age/ Changes/ Crucifixion/ I Ain't Marching Anymore.
JB
NP: Strawbs BURSTING AT THE SEAMS (SP 4383) "Part of the Union"

 

[Mr Bill]

That IS a possibility as well. I lean toward Gunfight Only because it was recorded during his Greatest Hits tour and "time-wise" would fall into that place, roughly. Then & Now (though I doubt that would've been the title had A&M released it) was recorded during a Rehearsals tour, given the track selection...

What I'm finding interesting is that A&M recorded a LOT of their acts on the road and very little of this material has been released except in the case of "BIG" acts like The Police or (at one time) Joe Jackson. Instead, these recordings appear as "rare" tracks on collections (as an example: Tim Curry's "Best of" or those CD3s that came out in 1988) or are licensed to smaller specialty labels that can market to a given artist's niche fan group (as in Then & Now by Ochs)... Makes me wonder how much "Live" TJB material is sitting in the vault (or, more likely, Herb's closet or the office of whoever is doing the remastering of his catalog -- hopefully).....

--Mr Bill
PS: Jim, did you get my email?

 

[LPJim]

No, I haven't received any email from you but I need to send some myself. I'm sure there's lots of catching up to do.
JB

 

[karlpascal]

Hello-

I just discovered this forum and, as an avid Phil Ochs collector, I find it very interesting that A&M had reserved this number for a new Ochs album. Unless numbers were assigned far in advance based on the specifics of a contract, I would agree that SP 4283 was likely reserved for the unreleased "Gunfight at Carnegie Hall" because Phil had absolutely nothing else in the works in 1970 due to the writer's block he began to experience around that time.

As for the story Mr. Bill relates about Phil randomly noticing Jerry Moss in the audience at the Troubadour and coaxing him onstage to talk about the unreleased album, it is not entirely accurate. In fact, the story of that encounter has never been accurately told.

The legend is that Ochs and Moss made a deal to release the “Gunfight” album right there on stage, and that Moss fulfilled his obligation by releasing it in Canada only. The truth however - based upon a tape of the encounter I have in my possession - is that at a "Phil Ochs and Friends" benefit concert at the Troubadour in L.A. on June 12, 1974, Moss, a scheduled guest, was invited up on stage with Phil and Doug Weston (owner of the Troubadour) to answer questions from the audience. Coaxed by a member of the audience, Phil took advantage of the moment to publically ask Moss about the record. As you'll see from the following transcript, unbeknownst to Phil “Gunfight” HAD ALREADY BEEN RELEASED by A&M in Canada.

The encounter was obviously an uncomfortable moment for all concerned. As it proceeded Phil began to stutter more and more, as he often did when nervous or challenged. Jerry's tone was pleasant but somewhat defensive and Weston tried to be as diplomatic as possible.
[start transcript]
PO: Now I’d like to introduce, just to say hello, the president of my record company Mr. Jerry Moss of A&M Records. Jerry are you here?
DW: C’mon Jerry. Come on up here.
(Jerry Moss comes up on stage accompanied by piano fanfare and much applause)
DW: It’s very seldom that a record company president ever makes an appearance at a nightclub. This man has done one fantastic job of running a record company. I’d like to say that.
(more applause)
JM: Hi. Phil, you’re singing better than ever.
PO: Here’s two of the fabulous people you never see. You’re surrounded by so-called stars, many of whom are not stars at all, but there are a couple of quality people around. Two of them are on the stage with me tonight. Doug Weston and Jerry Moss are people that have a certain style and quality. They can blush or deny it, but they do have it. I like ‘em a lot. I don’t know what we’re going to talk about. What are we going to talk about?
Woman in audience: When your album’s coming out?
DW: That’s a bad question.
PO: No, it’s a good question. I’ll now attack him for not releasing my record. I’ll say in public, in front of you who is the public: Jerry, why don't you release my record "Gunfight at Carnegie Hall"?
(applause)
DW: On Jerry’s behalf, I’ll say it's being considered.
JM: Yeah, we are.. we're uh... (laughter)... we're running it up the flagpole and see who salutes it. Well, I tell you, our Canadian company released the album and, uh, it's selling up there. I wanted to tell you it’s selling.
PO: I didn't know. That's great!
DW: Does anyone have a question for Jerry Moss?
Woman in audience: How about a better answer?
JM: Let me just, uh, answer the other question because I mean, you know, when you talk about Phil's album I think personally, and everybody takes a very philosophical viewpoint towards what they do and my own is that I'm a Phil Ochs fan, you know, as much as any one of you out there, perhaps even more, so my belief is that the best of Phil Ochs is yet to come and I'm not interested particularly in dwelling in the past, even though it may be of an historic nature. I think Phil should do new things I think he's very capable of doing and that's what I'm looking forward to, but if so many of you want to buy that album, we'll just make it available.
(applause)
PO: My request is this: that, um, here's the guy that runs the record company and he wants new product, new songs, new material - fair enough. I totally agree that that’s what I should present, but “Gunfight at Carnegie Hall” to me is my old material done better and my roots established...in a most bizarre way. This question...we answered two years later, that’s all. It’s good we aired this in public.
JM: Yeah... Right.
PO: Any questions? Then we’ll go on to the next singer.
Woman in audience #2: (unintelligible)
JM: I don’t happen to have a copy with me... I mean it’s always our, I think it’s our role not to inhibit anybody but to try to encourage and to, if we can, in some small way inspire.
PO: I-I-I-I’ve got to say that, um...
JM: I think maybe we’ll make it available at one store in town, you know.
(applause)
PO: I-I-I-I-I’ve got to say... we’ve got to expunge a bizarre situation that I do think A&M is the best record company in the business. It’s the least like business, the most human of the companies. It’s the most open and because I like people like Jerry Moss’ wife I never left the company over the lack of release (laughter) and eventually, you know, it all gets out to the public. I do believe that.
[end of transcript]

As far as I know, Jerry never made Phil’s record available “at one store in town,” let alone any stores in the U.S., but it did eventually get an MFSL CD release in the early ‘90s and, more recently, was part of a 2-fer CD release with “Rehearsals for Retirement” on the Collectors Choice label.

Karl

 

[LPJim]

That is an incredibly valuable piece of historic information. Thanks so much for sharing it with us.
JB

 

[Mr Bill]

Thanks Karl for that historical info! I do know that Canadian copies of Gunfight became available in the US in late 1974/early 1975 via Jem Imports, which is how I go tmy copy as teenaged Ochs fan. This may have been the result of that "on stage deal."

--Mr Bill
a side note: The first copy I purchased was printed on a matte textured paper and made the "old way" meaning the sleeve was just two 12" pieces of cardboard with the cover paper wrapping the two togther (and making up the spine as well) my second copy was on the more common and current semi-gloss cardstock which is folded into a 12x12 sleeve...

 

[LPJim]

Anyone who missed finding GUNFIGHT (SP 9010, Canada) on vinyl or the now out-of-print Mobile Fidelity CD version can find it as part of a 2-for-1 package through Collector's Choice Music. Included with GUNFIGHT is Phil's REHERSALS FOR RETIREMENT album (SP 4181). A bargain for apx. $16.
JB

 

[Harry]

Anyone who missed finding GUNFIGHT (SP 9010, Canada) on vinyl or the now out-of-print Mobile Fidelity CD version can find it as part of a 2-for-1 package through Collector's Choice Music. Included with GUNFIGHT is Phil's REHERSALS FOR RETIREMENT album (SP 4181). A bargain for apx. $16.
JB

The current Collectors Choice magazine has it on sale for $12.88. For that price, I'm thinking real hard about it, considering how much I enjoyed PLEASURES OF THE HARBOR (on sale for $9.88, as is TAPE FROM CALIFORNIA). http://www.collectorschoicemusic.com

Harry
...seriously considering these, online...

 

[karlpascal]

Hi all-

I'm glad you enjoyed the transcript of the actual encounter between Ochs and Moss. Even the two Ochs biographers never quite got it right!

I'm hoping somebody here could answer a few things for me:

1) Specifically how do you know that SP 4283 was supposed to be an Ochs record?

2) Does anyone know the actual release date of "Gunfight" on A&M Canada (obviously between Jan. and May 1974)?

3) Mr. Bill speculated that the importation of the LP by JEM later in the year might have been a result of Moss promising to "make it available." That's an interesting point. I'm not so knowledgeable about how these things work, so could anyone tell me if A&M would necessarily have been involved with JEM's decision to import and sell it here? I would guess it wouldn't have been imported if A&M had made a decision to release the LP in the US, but what actually is (was?) the relationship between companies like A&M and import distributors like JEM?

By the way, adding evidence to the speculation that SP 4283 was reserved for the "Gunfight" LP, I have live tapes from the spring of 1970 on which Phil refers to the "Gunfight" recording as his "next album."

Great forum everybody!

Thanks,

Karl