What Now My Love: Stereo LP versions

[Harry]

This is fascinating. I thought that H. A. made his David Rose statement with "Love Potion # 9." It's hard for me to imagine the present, up-tempo, quasi-ragtime version stopping for 30 seconds of David Rose, then resuming as was, but I guess that's why I'll never be a music arranger and should keep my day job.

Why did A & M issue different versions of "Plucky" on different WNML LPs? Was this common practice in the Sixties?

One of the great unanswered TjB mysteries...

We've bandied it about quite a bit around here, and all we know is that there are two different stereo mixes of the entire WHAT NOW MY LOVE album. The one that features the "Plucky"/striptease version also seems to have these anomalies:

"What Now My Love" featuring Herb's lead with less of a reverb

"So What's New" also has less or no echo on the whistling part

"Brasilia" is missing a trombone part.

Some fans here reported that all of those things sound 'normal' to them and are surprised by the other LP version that most of us seemed to grow up with. That indicates that it might have been a regional thing with some pressing plants having one master, and other pressing plants using the other.

I grew up with what I consider the 'normal' version of the LP - echoes on "What Now..." and "So What's New", no striptease on "Plucky", and a prominent trombone on "Brasilia". I was quite surprised the day I first heard "Plucky" on the CD of WHAT NOW MY LOVE, nearly stopping in my tracks as I was driving to work. The other mixes didn't sound as different to me, having heard all of them on various greatest hits compilations over the years.

That's what makes it so much of a mystery: Many of us heard "What Now My Love" in its echoey form from the singles and albums of the period. It lost that echo almost immediately when re-issued on SOLID BRASS and GREATEST HITS 2. "So What's New" and "Brasilia" got the same treatment, appearing in their 'altered' form on the compilations, indicating that the masterers at A&M considered these to be the definitive versions even back in the '70s. So what was it that we were listening to back then? And why do some fans think that these versions were 'normal'?

The only answer is that there were two different pressing masters out there. And to make it all stranger, in an attempt to find out more about the mystery, I uncovered a copy of WHAT NOW MY LOVE that seems to be a hybrid: Side one sounds like the old normal issue to me, with all the echoes in their proper places, but side two has that missing trombone on "Brasilia", a fact that drove me nuts until I found this forum years ago.

I hope that fills you in on the WHAT NOW MY LOVE mystery. Thanks for starting this thread - I think we needed a little jump-start. Things had gotten a little slow around here on the TjB front.

Harry
...trying to explain the near-unexplainable, online...

 

[Numero Cinco]

Harry: Thank you for taking the time to explain all this to a newcomer who has never heard any of the alternative versions. Having seen others' references to "Brasilia" with the trombone intro and never having heard anything but that, I was damned if I knew what people were talking about.

As someone has surely said long before I showed up here, this is another splendid reason for reissue of classic albums. Mr. Alpert: Please consider reissuing What Now My Love with some of these alternative tracks. Although everyone's concerned about the bottom line, this is more than a question of dollars.This is a matter of popular music history: a legacy we and future generations do not own but profoundly enjoy and by which we and they would be enriched.

—Clifton Black

 

[Mike Blakesley]

My theory about the different WNMLs has always been that it was a simple mistake or mis-label. One plant got "WHAT NOW MY LOVE - Final Version #12" and the other got Version #12A or something.

When you hear about all the thousands of tape reels the engineers have to pore through to make up today's reissues, and some of the horror stories about tapes being lost, mislabeled, erased etc. it's not too far fetched that there were two WNMLs floating around: One finished, one unfinished. Remember, everyone was smoking pot back in those days!

 

[Rudy]

We've bandied it about quite a bit around here, and all we know is that there are two different stereo mixes of the entire WHAT NOW MY LOVE album.

One theory that might pan out: Larry Levine used to mix the mono LPs, where Herb would mix the stereo himself. And, he'd mix two times--one for the east coast plant and the other for the west coast. Would (or should) the mixes be that much different? I don't think so, at least intentionally. Consider the time period also: the TJB was red hot, preorders for "the next TJB album" were selling an album that didn't exist yet, the band was touring...heck, even the title track was just a demo with overdubs! In that kind of rush, it's entirely possible two stereo mixes were done, albeit not to carefully!

Another thing to listen for in album differences: in the "strip tease" version of "Plucky", listen closely to the marimbas in the first and second verses. You can actually hear two distintly different marimba parts playing, where in the other version, you only hear one.

 

[Rudy]

OK, for the curious, I put together an MP3 file several months ago comparing a few spots in the album. Here's the link:

http://www.amcorner.com/media/whatnowsamples.mp3

What to listen for:

The first of the pair of samples are from the non-"strip tease 'Plucky'" version of the album (or actually, this version of the stereo LP is almost identical to the mono in terms of mix).

1) The beginning of "Plucky". Here, listen for the marimba parts. First sample has the marimba on the right side, more subdued. Second sample, marimba located in the right AND center, two different parts being played. Some are in unison, but others are very different. Marimbas are louder in this mix also.

2) Middle of "Plucky", a bit lenghty to show where the strip tease portion does (or does not) appear in the mix. First sample, no stripping; second, 18 or over, please.

3) "Brasilia". First sample has trombone lead-in. Second sample does not. I know the trumpet parts are also played differently, slightly different phrasing, but I don't know if it's in this sample or not.

4) Title track. Notice how the first sample has more echo, where the second is "dry".

If there are other differences, I'll have to locate the LPs again and make up a new file. (Things are in disarray here right now.) These two LP versions are interesting enough to make it worth the effort.

 

[Brasil_Nut]

You know, I've always heard a 'muffled' opening to "What Now My Love" on both reel-to-reel and Lp versions of the album. It happens just before Herb's trumpet at the beginning of the song. Almost as if everything was kind of layered atop one-another to get it going.

After reading these posts, I played both Lp and open reel versions to make sure of what I was hearing. Sure enough, it was there. Am I alone on this?

Jon

 

[Mr Bill]

Thanks for posting that sample, Neil! I'm among those who heard the "bump & grind" version of "Plucky" for the first time when the CD came out in 1988. As for the marimba differences in your two versions it sounds to me like Julius came up with two arrangements for his part and both were recorded. One version has the part that is more to the left subdued only slightly compared to the other one. The second version sounds almost like the same part stays center but the left one is now moved to the right and brought up considerably more. If we call the two different arangements "Center Marimba" and "Side Marimba" one version would have "CM" louder than "SM(onleft)" while the other version would have "SM(onright)" louder than "CM." If I confuse you, just PM me (or IM) about this BM in the AM or PM In any case it's one of my favorite Wechter parts in the TJB canon.

However your sample is the first time I've consciously heard "Brasilia" minus the trobone part. Sure enough my CD is the version sans T-bone. The song seems naked without it. I think that shows I wasn't paying a lot of attention to the CDs when they first appeared (though I do remember being shocked at hearing the vocal intro to "Numero Cinco" at the time)

--Mr Bill

 

[thetijuanataxi]

I first encountered the bump and grind version of "Plucky" and the naked, un-TBoned version of "Brasilia" on the 8-track version of WNML. Got to say that I like the T-boned version better and like both versions of "Plucky".

David,
wishing they never omitted the t-bone

 

[Rudy]

However your sample is the first time I've consciously heard "Brasilia" minus the trobone part. Sure enough my CD is the version sans T-bone. The song seems naked without it. I think that shows I wasn't paying a lot of attention to the CDs when they first appeared (though I do remember being shocked at hearing the vocal intro to "Numero Cinco" at the time)

My folks had the mono LPs of both of these albums. So "Brasilia" with the trombone, and "Numero Cinco" with the spoken intro, were what I expected to hear when I got better stereo LPs. With "Brasilia", I got the stereo version with the trombone and no strip tease in "Plucky". It wasn't until I got a CD-R of the CD that I noticed the missing trombone in "Brasilia" on the actual album (where I'd heard it in a compilation this way), but "Plucky" threw me for a loop when I first heard the strip tease. You figure I'd heard it only one way for 35 years or more--it was a shocker!

What I'm thinking is that one of the stereo versions may be the east coast version, and the west coast was the one with missing trombone and added strip tease.

With "Numero Cinco", the stereo LP does NOT have the spoken intro. The mono LP does. The CD is in stereo, but does have the intro tacked onto it. This makes me wonder if there were ever two stereo LP versions of this album. Seems unlikely they'd do this just for CD. The stereo master had to exist somewhere.

 

[Harry]

With "Numero Cinco", the stereo LP does NOT have the spoken intro. The mono LP does. The CD is in stereo, but does have the intro tacked onto it. This makes me wonder if there were ever two stereo LP versions of this album. Seems unlikely they'd do this just for CD. The stereo master had to exist somewhere.

Ahh..would that THAT were all true. Typically, I've got yet another oddity - a mono WNML with no spoken intro on "Numero Cinco."

So that means there were at least two different mono versions of the LP too.

I noticed something else playing a few of the LPs I have this morning - the "familiar" version (no echos, no striptease, missing trombones), seems to be a rather dull sounding mix, missing a lot of highs and generally rather muddy sounding. The other mix is brighter. It's even true on my hybrid copy where side one is murky and side two has better fidelity, more like the CD. This tells me that when they did the CD and likely used the LP masters, they grabbed that "other" mix, possibly because it WAS the West Coast version and handy. Who knows whatever might have happened to the East Coast version?

Did the Japanese press straight from the US CD? Or are there differences there too? Anyone have the Japanese CD?

Harry
...thinking WHAT NOW MY LOVE could have its own forum!, online...

 

[Mr Bill]

Ahh..would that THAT were all true. Typically, I've got yet another oddity - a mono WNML with no spoken intro on "Numero Cinco."

Harry, you indeed have an oddity in that I have yet to see a verion of WNML with "Numero Cinco" on it. In my collection SOTB has "Numero Cinco" on it... Closest I've seen is an Asian WC&OD that has "3rd Man Theme" added as a 13th track...

--Mr Bill
taking advantage of Harry's booboo

 

[DAN BOLTON]

I just got through listening to the MP3 sample, and I noticed that there seems to be a little "bleed through" on BRASILIA on the stereo version where the trombone riff should be...it seems to start, but fades almost instantly. The trumpet acting as a taxi or streetcar horn is brighter on the stereo mix, as well, and there's an "off-key" note similar to the one near the end of the first chorus near the end of the second verse.

I wonder if maybe a master was lost for this album, just as the original master for THE LONELY BULL was misplaced...or, if maybe the trumpet blats for BRASILIA just needed a little "sweetening" and the trombone riff was on the same track, and would have been altered in a way that wouldn't have suited the overall sound...so the trumpet was rerecorded, and there wasn't time to redo the trombone...

Mr. Bill...that asian copy of WC&OD...is that the one with Lucy Liu on the cover?


Dan

 

[Mr Bill]

I just got through listening to the MP3 sample, and I noticed that there seems to be a little "bleed through" on BRASILIA on the stereo version where the trombone riff should be...

I hear it too. It's almost like there's phase cancellation of the trombone -- and if that's the case we mya know now why it was remastered if the "no T-bone" version came first...

Mr. Bill...that asian copy of WC&OD...is that the one with Lucy Liu on the cover?

No. I have the first few LPs in either Chinese or Japanese where the sleeve is printed on a crappy paper stock I'd best describe as thick newsprint. The printing is not even full color -- two or three colors only. This is sealed inside and out with a very thin plastic not unlike a double 12x12 baggie. The vinyl is colored in all cases: blue, green, yellow, orange and red. Truly strange, but as I recall (I haven't had a working turntable in over 10 years now) sounded pretty good.

--Mr Bill

 

[Harry]

Ahh..would that THAT were all true. Typically, I've got yet another oddity - a mono WNML with no spoken intro on "Numero Cinco."

Harry, you indeed have an oddity in that I have yet to see a verion of WNML with "Numero Cinco" on it. In my collection SOTB has "Numero Cinco" on it... Closest I've seen is an Asian WC&OD that has "3rd Man Theme" added as a 13th track...

--Mr Bill
taking advantage of Harry's booboo

Oh cr--p! I'm going to blame this on Neil, who injected "Numero Cinco" into the WNML discussion.

Of course, I meant that I have a mono copy of SOTB without the spoken intro on "Numer Cinco". That is the album it's from right?

Harry
...newbie, online...

 

[Rocketman]

First I have to thank Rudy for posting the mp3 of Plucky. I grew up with the other version and although I remember reading about the strip tease version in this forum, had never actually heard it.

Now the big question is, "how do you figure out which version the LP is without playing it?" Or is this impossible? If it really was an East Coast vs. West Coast thing, then hunting down the 'other' version could wind up being a lifetime project!

 

[Rudy]

First I have to thank Rudy for posting the mp3 of Plucky. I grew up with the other version and although I remember reading about the strip tease version in this forum, had never actually heard it.

Now the big question is, "how do you figure out which version the LP is without playing it?" Or is this impossible? If it really was an East Coast vs. West Coast thing, then hunting down the 'other' version could wind up being a lifetime project!

The ONLY way, visually, might be to see how wide the "Plucky" track is on the vinyl. Other than that, I don't really know.

One thing I'm going to check when I find both copies here is to compare the numbers in the runout area. I think we checked that before and didn't really reach a conclusion.

 

[Rudy]

I just got through listening to the MP3 sample, and I noticed that there seems to be a little "bleed through" on BRASILIA on the stereo version where the trombone riff should be...it seems to start, but fades almost instantly.

Unfortunately both of my copies aren't the best for this LP...not as good as I'd like, in other words. Plus, it's a 128k MP3 file, so the fidelity is far from being good. (I think it sounds horrible, personally...I'm just hoping it's good enough to hear the differences.)

 

[thetijuanataxi]

If it's a silver label pressing from the 70's or early 80's (SP 3265) it will most assuredly be the No echo, bump and grind, t-bone missing pressing. I have never seen the original mix that I grew up with past the label change.

David,
hoping this helps......

 

[Rocketman]

Thank you David for the tip. Now maybe I can persuade a dealer or two to wade through their thousands of copies for me.

 

[Rudy]

An explanation for Harry's hybrid LP: best bet is that a stamper (or "mother") was shipped from one pressing plant to another. If demand was at a peak, it would be easier and faster to just ship a spare stamper over to the other plant, rather than cut a new lacquer for just one side, have it plated, and new stampers made. And a studio would not issue a master tape that is only half different.

One other theory I can throw into the mix: considering that the one stereo version is so similar to the mono, I'm wondering if the two were somehow related. Maybe both Larry Levine and Herb Alpert did a stereo mix, and one slipped out to a pressing plant by accident? (If something's not clearly labeled, it's a possibility...this happens more often than it should, actually.)

Or maybe, a two-channel version of the mono LP was created in tandem with the mono, perhaps running a stereo version to one recorder while making the "real" mono version on another. This might explain why the balance and sound quality are so different on the stereo LP than the "strip tease" version. (One way to check would be to play the stereo LP back in mono...if it sounded identical, that might explain it, as the mix might have intended to be "folded down". In other words, they could have played it back and mixed in mono, but also ran it in tandem to a stereo deck. Hard to explain, but maybe someone will pick up on my idea and clarify it.)

I wasn't saying above that they DID actually ship a different copy to each pressing plant, but think about it: I've only heard the the one version, and it sounds like Harry had the same non-strip-tease version I did. I would guess that Michigan would have been served by the same pressing plant as the east coast. By that theory, most *original* pressing runs of the LPs would have been released in two different versions, and would have been biased by location, based on which plant served which area. (IOW, the east coast would predominantly have one version, while the west would have the other.) Later pressing runs, especially the reissues, would have been the "strip tease" version since they standardized on that one. Can't bank on that today, as used vinyl has changed hands many times, and copies have travelled back and forth across the country. For imports, all bets are off. My guess is they'd have the strip tease version, from a copy of the LP master, issued right out of Los Angeles.

I do want better copies of both of my versions...mine are OK, and actually look great on a visual grade, but that doesn't mean squat in terms of groove wear and noise in the grooves. Unfortunately for ANY of my record buying, I have to end up buying multiple copies until I find one that plays to my satisfaction.

 

[venturaguy49]

I'll make a uncharacteristically quick comment on the "What Now My Love"
album, as well as title track. My guess about the muffled sound during intro could've been Pisano strumming with his thumb ala Wes Montgomery,
as the guitar is promenant there, and then there's the thing that Herb
explained in a website that I wish that I could recall the url of, but seems that he was observing the sound from a pair of car horns replying to one another, with their respective pitches, and during that time, "What Now..."
had been going through his head, so the effects of the horns became the inspiration for his classic performance...well, if memory serves me, cars
were a frequent theme of the T.J.B. With the B.M.B., the T.J.B.'s bad little brothers, their mascot was the chicken. Now we know why the darned things
crossed the road, to see if they could dodge the T.J. Taxi...I just know that I've recieved a resounding for dat one!
Now that word has it that the entire Brass library may be available on c.d., which is major to me. And perhaps all the various versions of the "What Now" tracks will be issued. 'Till it was released on c.d., i was under the impression that there were just two versions, mono and stereo with the frequent slight variations...that c.d. version of "Plucky" is a real freak-out on first hearing...sheeze I thought my c.d. player was going batty.
the only problem with it, is that the drums don't bring the strip tempo in...would've been more effective to use a roll capped by a cymbal crash.
Personally, I prefer that effect more on S.R.O.'s fabulous "Blue Sunday";
there the band is brought to a perfect halt that sounds appropriate, with a nice riff that is neat and logical. Somehow on "Plucky", not enough thought went into closing one phase(the main tempo) before stopping. Not good.
Again, and drum roll ending with a cymbal crash would have made it seem more complete, but that's just my opinion, and like navels, opinions we all have. And with that, I'll make like a banana and split.

Warm Wishes,
sleepy_from_seattle aka steve

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Steve, that anecdote about the car horns was from the liner notes that accompany DEFINITIVE HITS, and were available for download at www.herbalpert.com ...at least I printed them...



Dan

 

[TonyCurrie]

As a matter of interest, the British pressings I have of WNML (The mono is on Pye Internataional and the stereo is on A&M) has Plucky without strippers, and Brasilia with trombone.

 

[Harry]

Steve, that anecdote about the car horns was from the liner notes that accompany DEFINITIVE HITS, and were available for download at www.herbalpert.com ...at least I printed them...

Still there. The quote is:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9. What Now My Love – Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass
(Gilbert Becaud/Pierre Leroyer/Carl Sigman)
Produced by Herb Alpert & Jerry Moss
Arranged by Herb Alpert
Engineered by Larry Levine
Recorded at Gold Star Recording Studios, Hollywood
From the album What Now My Love, 1966

I heard this song on an album by the French composer/singer, Gilbert Becaud. After a few listens the melody was in my memory. While on a concert tour in Hawaii I was walking on the beach in Waikiki when I heard two cars "beep" twice at each other, the second car answering in a slightly higher pitch. I then sang five "beeps" to finish the opening melody of "What Now My Love." This traffic encounter was the inspiration for the way the trumpet is punctuated in the musical arrangement.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harry
...who can just imagine this scenario, online...

 

[venturaguy49]

I'll address two issues from two separate features, which will be somewhat like either crosstalk, or perhaps Cert' Mints: two, two, two topics in one
On the issue of those various wnml version, there's also the possibility that Herb just couldn't completely settle of which to use, as records are things that most artists would redo before they hit the market, and in the case of a band like the Beatles, things would be altered appreciably, and noticeable whenever one aquired an 'import', so that one version of "And I Love Her" will feature a dual-voiced Paul, and in others a triple track...and then there's the legandary "Sgt. Peppers" with not only minor to moderate differences, but tracks such as "She's Leaving Home" would be a different key for the mono issue, compared to stereo, and so and so forth. The Fab Four lead
the way in modifying album tracks, so it's not all that irrational that an
artist such as Herb Alpert would indulge his desire to present a differing version here and there...after all, the guy began introducing such changes
with the two 'obligatos' of "Crawfish" on his debut disk, so anyone that's comfy with notably altering their music on their first album, by the time that they're on their sixth, most likely would delight in totally buggering it...ala Beatles, with two distinctly separate albums...and then somewhere, there is a far differnt version of "Great Manolete" (single version) and an version of "Mexican Corn" with an overdubbed piano in bass clef playin over the bass viol, so this seems to be something that Alpert enjoyed doing.

Now onto my 'other' topic, which I'll postpone for the moment, so that
I may post this 'fore this dumb thing crashed, cuz we don't have 'save draft' available here.

Warm Wishes,
sleepy_from_seattle