Canta the song in it's entirety (not the From the Top version)
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TheOneBeatleManiac
Well-Known Member
This was an interesting listen! I always wondered why the end of those specific lines weren't in Spanish on the 'From The Top' version.
Hearing it now, those two lines sound a bit crammed as they're trying to fit the original lyrics translated into Spanish. It seems that in this Spanish version of the song they tried translate it 1:1 as much as possible, which meant the vocal line melody changed drastically, as the Spanish words/lines tend to be longer than in English.
As Cuyler showed a few posts back the Spanish lyrics translated back to English (which I can say they are correct, I speak Spanish), you can see the lyrics are pretty much identical to the original English version.
They probably should have taken a few liberties and fit them melodically as well (kind of what ABBA did for their Spanish versions), because the melody sounds a bit too forced rhythmically overall.
Maybe it could have ended up like this (just a rough idea and a few liberties taken on the melody to fit as much of a correct Spanish pronunciation too without deviating/cramming a lot from the original melody):
Canta,
Una canción,
En voz alta,
Canta fuerte.
De cosas buenas, no malas
Canta alegre, no triste./De alegría no tristeza.
Canta,
Una canción,
Hazla sencilla
Para que sea eterna.
No importa que no sea tan buena
Para quien la oíga
(Sólo) Canta
Una canción.
In English:
Sing,
A song,
Out loud,
Sing strong.
About/of good things, not bad. / About/of happiness not sadness.
Sing,
A song,
Make it simple,
To last eternally.
Doesn't matter if it's not good enough
For anyone that hears it
(Just) sing
A song.
Hearing it now, those two lines sound a bit crammed as they're trying to fit the original lyrics translated into Spanish. It seems that in this Spanish version of the song they tried translate it 1:1 as much as possible, which meant the vocal line melody changed drastically, as the Spanish words/lines tend to be longer than in English.
As Cuyler showed a few posts back the Spanish lyrics translated back to English (which I can say they are correct, I speak Spanish), you can see the lyrics are pretty much identical to the original English version.
They probably should have taken a few liberties and fit them melodically as well (kind of what ABBA did for their Spanish versions), because the melody sounds a bit too forced rhythmically overall.
Maybe it could have ended up like this (just a rough idea and a few liberties taken on the melody to fit as much of a correct Spanish pronunciation too without deviating/cramming a lot from the original melody):
Canta,
Una canción,
En voz alta,
Canta fuerte.
De cosas buenas, no malas
Canta alegre, no triste./De alegría no tristeza.
Canta,
Una canción,
Hazla sencilla
Para que sea eterna.
No importa que no sea tan buena
Para quien la oíga
(Sólo) Canta
Una canción.
In English:
Sing,
A song,
Out loud,
Sing strong.
About/of good things, not bad. / About/of happiness not sadness.
Sing,
A song,
Make it simple,
To last eternally.
Doesn't matter if it's not good enough
For anyone that hears it
(Just) sing
A song.
Another Son
Well-Known Member
Very interesting.
I did a translation of the Japanese version of ‘Sing’ back to English about 20 years ago and it was not until then that I realised the depth of meaning that the song could have. I think whoever did the Japanese translation made the song ‘deeper’ than the original, so Japanese speakers probably get more from the message of the song than English speakers do from the English version.
As Cuyler says, (and as far as I understand), the Japanese version has the theme of all people coming together and singing in one voice, which I took to mean all supporting each other and living in harmony - a meaning that I didn’t get from the English original. Mind you, I was about nine when I first heard (the English version of) ‘Sing’, so have always kept that very literal interpretation of the lyrics that you would have as a nine-year-old.
If you speak the Japanese lyrics, the vowels are a lot more clipped - I suppose as happens in English, too. As we all know, Karen loved holding onto notes, therefore elongating vowel sounds. This is something that I always enjoy in her performances, because it brings out a certain tone in the voice - in Karen’s case, a very special tone.
As Cuyler suggests, a native speaker of Japanese would definitely be able to tell that Karen wasn’t one, from hearing her performance on ‘Sing’, as she changes some of the consonant sounds, for one thing, and her accent is different - e.g. she changes the vowel sounds, too, (as a native English speaker might).
I understand Japanese best when it’s in a certain context - (e.g. in a shop, in a restaurant, at an airport), where you can use contextual clues for meaning. If two people were just chatting in a street, I would understand very little of their conversation, if any of it - so I’m still at a fairly ‘beginning’ level and have lost a lot of my understanding and skills since returning from Japan. And I can read very little, as I’ve never worked on the reading side of things.
I did a translation of the Japanese version of ‘Sing’ back to English about 20 years ago and it was not until then that I realised the depth of meaning that the song could have. I think whoever did the Japanese translation made the song ‘deeper’ than the original, so Japanese speakers probably get more from the message of the song than English speakers do from the English version.
As Cuyler says, (and as far as I understand), the Japanese version has the theme of all people coming together and singing in one voice, which I took to mean all supporting each other and living in harmony - a meaning that I didn’t get from the English original. Mind you, I was about nine when I first heard (the English version of) ‘Sing’, so have always kept that very literal interpretation of the lyrics that you would have as a nine-year-old.
If you speak the Japanese lyrics, the vowels are a lot more clipped - I suppose as happens in English, too. As we all know, Karen loved holding onto notes, therefore elongating vowel sounds. This is something that I always enjoy in her performances, because it brings out a certain tone in the voice - in Karen’s case, a very special tone.
As Cuyler suggests, a native speaker of Japanese would definitely be able to tell that Karen wasn’t one, from hearing her performance on ‘Sing’, as she changes some of the consonant sounds, for one thing, and her accent is different - e.g. she changes the vowel sounds, too, (as a native English speaker might).
I understand Japanese best when it’s in a certain context - (e.g. in a shop, in a restaurant, at an airport), where you can use contextual clues for meaning. If two people were just chatting in a street, I would understand very little of their conversation, if any of it - so I’m still at a fairly ‘beginning’ level and have lost a lot of my understanding and skills since returning from Japan. And I can read very little, as I’ve never worked on the reading side of things.
Cuyler
Bright colored pinwheels go 'round in my head.
Definitely. I'd be curious to know who wrote the Japanese lyrics--whoever they are, they did a great job imho.
Yes. As you know, this happens a lot with "su" (for the folks who don't speak Japanese). So, in spoken conversation, "wasureru" (to forget) probably would sound more like "wassreru." The same phenomenon happens with "desu," pronounced "dess" almost universally (to be/is), or "masu," pronounced like Spanish "más" (indicates that the verb is in the present tense).
Now that I think about it, a really good way to hear the way vowels are sung in Japanese is when the children's choir sings, particularly on the "Live in Japan" album. You'll hear the way the "u" vowel is not "ooh" but it's unrounded (you don't round your lips like a pout or duck lips); there's no equivalent in English, so it's hard to describe how the sound is made, but it's romanized as "u." The "o" is also very open, maybe like the French o, or the Portuguese ó; not like English "oh." (If you're an English speaker, notice how your lips close a little at the end of "oh"--that doesn't exist in Japanese, which explains how the Japanese choir sings "utaou." They keep the vowel very open.)
Same! My childhood Japanese school classes taught me to read hiragana and katakana with some level of fluency. Other than that, we read very very basic kanji (like first- and second-grade level kanji) and that's about it. I'm only able to translate kanji using the handwriting feature on my iPhone and MacBook Pro. I literally handwrite the character and look it up. I have no idea how Japanese (and Chinese) students learn thousands of characters. The human brain is fascinating!
Cuyler
Bright colored pinwheels go 'round in my head.
I really like these two translational liberties. I'm trying to figure out how to match the acentuación with the downbeats in the song. It amazes me that I've never thought deeply about this... but well-written Spanish lyrics really should match the accents with the downbeats.
Another Son
Well-Known Member
Exactly! The children's choirs on the performances in Japan sing with much more clipped vowel sounds, similar to how you would speak the words.
Karen actually sings as if she is reading a Romanized transcription of the lyrics, which she probably did, initially. Therefore, she does things like changes the 'd' sound in 'wasureru' to an 'r' sound. If she'd learnt by listening to a recording of a speaker of Japanese, or had a more phonetic transcription of actual sounds, her pronunciation would have been different. (I'm just assuming how she learnt the words - I wouldn't know, for sure).
She said in a 1976 interview, (The Tonight Show?) that, by the time she got done with the song, she had all the sounds all mixed together.
'Utaou' is a good example to use. It has sort of more direct emphasis when spoken - the 'ta' section is emphasised. Karen changes the last sound to an elongated 'or'. The inflections of the word, as spoken in Japanese, almost naturally suit the tones of the song in that place.
Yes, the 'u' at the end of 'wasureru' is very short and clipped. It's hard to explain.
With just a few key words and touches, (as far as I understand), the Japanese translator effectively enriched the song so it became much more meaningful. Clever.
I must say, I know very little about French and nothing about Portuguese, so your comments here are interesting.
'Duck lips' - lol.
Yes, I understand that Kanji takes years and years of intensive learning - almost a life-long task. Is that right?
In any event, it seems that audiences in Japan appreciated and enjoyed the Japanese version of 'Sing' and Karen's performance.
I once said to a friend of mine, a native speaker of Japanese who grew up in Japan, that I loved the sing-song quality of Japanese - the rhythm of the language, and the inflections. She said that she hadn't ever thought of the language as having a sing-song quality. I found that interesting, because the rhythm and the sort of 'singing' quality is what attracted me to the language. That wasn't my friend's perspective, at all.
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TheOneBeatleManiac
Well-Known Member
That's why I think ABBA's spanish songs have withstood the test of time better than many other artists that tried to sing in Spanish; they tried to get the pronunciation of the words correctly, while trying to capture the overall theme of the song and be faithful to the original melody, making the necessary sacrifices when they had to benefit this new version.
I prefer good pronunciation and trying to maintain as much of the original music as possible, than severely butcher it in favor of a literal translation whose pronunciation is wrong in many places.
Thinking of a few more liberties and trying to make it fit more to Spanish:
Canta,
una canción,
hazlo fuerte,
en voz alta.
De lo bueno, no malo.
De alegría, no tristeza.
Canta,
la canción,
muy sencilla,
para que sea eterna.
Y no pienses en su valor / No pienses en su calidad
Tu canta para ti
(Sólo) Canta
tu canción.
In English:
Sing,
a song,
do it strong,
out loud.
About the good, not bad
About happiness, not sadness.
Sing,
the song,
very simple,
to last eternally.
And don't think about its worth / Don't think of its quality
Sing for yourself
(Just) sing
your song.
Cuyler
Bright colored pinwheels go 'round in my head.
I'm amazed with how you were able to think outside of the box to rephrase parts of the song. I know I'm not a songwriter for the simple fact that I can only hear the English recording and the Spanish recording in my head... there's no way I'd be able to come up with original lyrics that capture the essence of the original song without doing a direct translation.
TheOneBeatleManiac
Well-Known Member
I've tried my hand (whenever I have the inspiration) on writing lyrics for some of my own compositions that have words to sing. I don't consider myself good enough, but I like to try.
For me, it's a matter to capture an identical meaning of the song, taking advantage of the Spanish language itself in this case. I'll say sometimes it's good to translate it as literally as possible, and start thinking from there.
John Tkacik
Well-Known Member
Should the mono version be included in the CRR information for the song?
Maybe. Let me think about that.
Rick-An Ordinary Fool
Well-Known Member
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
Vinylalbumcovers
Ah am so steel een luv weeth yoo
Holy phase, Batman. This is torture. Fun...but torture. I couldn't listen to this long...LOL!!!
Ed
Randy M
Well-Known Member
You never had your mother and your father yelling at you at the same time.
byline
Well-Known Member
Interesting, I enjoy the sound of Karen's voice more on this version than the English original. I can't pinpoint why, except that I hear a somewhat richer sound in her upper register, more depth in her lower register. Could just be my ears playing tricks on me. Now I'll have to give the original another listen!
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
It may be something to do with the vowel sounds in the Spanish version. You get a richer sound from Karen’s voice when she singing open vowel sounds like ‘ahh’ sounds as in ‘canta’, than you do with a closed ‘I’ sound as in ‘sing’.
I remember reading (or hearing) an interview with John Bettis where he explained he deliberately wrote lyrics with the right vowel sounds that would bring out the best in Karen’s voice. ‘Only Yesterday’ was one example - it opens with open a and e vowels in the first couple of lines (‘after’ and ‘everyone’).
byline
Well-Known Member
Makes perfect sense. Thank you for explaining why I hear more warmth in Karen's voice in the Spanish version. I wish it could've somehow translated over into the English version ... but of course it couldn't because of the difference in the lyrics, which produces different vowel sounds.
Matthew S
Well-Known Member
Good, now we need a side by side video of her singing both versions, left side of the screen Canta, right side of the screen Sing.
For anyone seriously looking for a vinyl copy of "Canta", this album from Colombia on eBay has it.
They want $99.95, but it's located in the US. (Ft. Lauderdale).
RARE Colombia Vinyl LP with THE CARPENTERS Karen CANTA (Spanish Version of SING) | eBay
This is a various artist compilation from Columbia. It includes “Canta” by The Carpenters. The version of the song included on the first edition of the Carpenters’ “From The Top” box set was Spanglish (Spanish and English).
www.ebay.com
They want $99.95, but it's located in the US. (Ft. Lauderdale).
