Carpenters Image

[brycem]

Hi Everyone,

I was just wondering how many of you have had enough of the whole extremely wrong image that Karen and Richard have. I'm 26 and have been a fan in one way or another my whole life having been brought up on the Carpenters, somehow while I was at high school it "got out" that I was into their music. Needless to say I was deemed as Mr Unpopular because of my musical tastes (It didn't stop me from listening though & my friends today don't really give me too much grief).

I honestly believe that had they been put across to the public a bit better then so much of what went down wouldn't of happened to the extent it did.....

Life can be cruel sometimes
Bryce

 

[Harry]

Kids, particularly high schoolers, can be quite cruel to anyone who doesn't fit their mold of hip, cool, with-it, or whatever the phrase of the day happens to be.

The fact is that no matter how Carpenters were, or are, marketed by the label, the music itself would still be somewhat of a stigma to a young fan, since kids tend to gravitate to whatever the harshest sound is out there. Kids, in general, are destined to like whatever grates on their parents' nerves, and say what you will about Carpenters, but they'd be hard-pressed to "grate" on anyone, anywhere (except for the "tragically hip".)

Harry
...who fortunately was out of high school before Carpenters came along, online...

 

[aaflyer98]

I was am a true fan in high school...1987-1981...people never ridiculed my taste in music....they all loved Karen's voice, but the Carpenters songs were, in their opinion, "cheesey"...did that stop me? No, I'd just blast "goofus" a little louder! But on a serious note, my pre=college summer music school class in 1981 loved Made In America...I had brought the album into school as a project we were asked to do was bring in our favorite album...and all thought K&R and grown in to some fine arrangements and vocal accomplishments. The album was a "hit" with my music class in 1981.

 

[Harry]

I assume you mean either 1977-1981, or more likely, 1987-1991.

Harry

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I took some heat in 8th grade and early high school for liking the TJB...they were seriously out of fashion by that time. ('70-'71) My sisters were Carpenters fans at the same time and I gave them a hard time about it ... but I found myself secretly liking some of the songs, especially "Close to You" and the faster ones like "Love Is Surrender" and "Help." Then when the A SONG FOR YOU album came out I was hooked for good.

 

[Captaindave]

I'm 26 and have been a fan in one way or another my whole life having been brought up on the Carpenters, somehow while I was at high school it "got out" that I was into their music. Needless to say I was deemed as Mr Unpopular because of my musical tastes (It didn't stop me from listening though & my friends today don't really give me too much grief).

I honestly believe that had they been put across to the public a bit better then so much of what went down wouldn't of happened to the extent it did.....

Life can be cruel sometimes
Bryce

I would say that the music many of your peers have chosen to claim for their generation is pretty far removed from the Carpenters. So, I don't think that marketing them in a different way would increase their appeal to the age group to which you refer. The sound and style just doesn't fit the generation overall. The popularity of the Carpenter began in 1970, and pop music has changed much since then, as have the characteristics of the listeners.

However, it seems to be getting worse with time, as I notice some of the so-called "artists" today that receive radio airplay, TV coverage, and are found in the record bins of most retailers are worse than the stuff my 26 year old son was exposed to when he was in high school...

 

[K.C. Jr]

I think this one is also from the time they were promoting the MAKE YOUR OWN KIND OF MUSIC series, but I'm not sure.

This one cracks me up. Play on the Carpenters name, I'll bet...

 

[LondonRobert]

Richard's expression says it all really - 'WHY DID I AGREE TO THIS????'
Lol

 

[ringves]

That photo with the saw and hammer is one of the reasons why the rock music elites refused to take the C's seriously.

IMHO, C's management should have stepped in and put a stop to that sort of photo being taken.

While it may have seemed funny at the time, this sort of thing did long-term damage to the C's image.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[song4u]

That photo with the saw and hammer is one of the reasons why the rock music elites refused to take the C's seriously.

IMHO, C's management should have stepped in and put a stop to that sort of photo being taken.

While it may have seemed funny at the time, this sort of thing did long-term damage to the C's image.

Just my 2 cents.

And it shows the odds they had to beat to succeed. If they hadn't been so, so good, they'd have never overcome the poor image, IMO.

 

[Harry]

[Moderators' note: A few posts about Carpenters' Image have been moved over to a very old thread with that very title. As a discussion topic, it merits its own thread.]

I believe that one of the very things that sent Carpenters to the stratosphere of the charts is also the very thing that may have doomed their image, and it comes down to the lyrics from Hal David in "(They Long To Be) Close To You":

"On the day that you were born, the angels got together and decided to create a dream come true. So they sprinkled moon dust in your hair of gold, and starlight in your eyes of blue."

And then you've got the bit about birds appearing as if out of a Disney motion picture. The song's lyrics invite parody. But yet Richard and Karen's recording of it went straight to the top of the charts. It was a throwback sort of song that would have been more at home in the "moon, june, swoon" '50s.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not putting down their first big hit. As a matter of fact, I still consider it a brilliant hit and one of their best, and I can still listen to it at anytime - it never wears out its welcome with me. But those lyrics certainly didn't do them any favors in terms of image.

The pictures of the duo with tools were cute promotional ideas for trade magazines. They weren't ever used or considered for album covers. In fact, in retrospect, THEY might have been better than what WAS used!

Harry

 

[GaryAlan]

Some lines taken from Tour Books:
1976 Tour Book:
"With the realization of how well they'd done came in 1975, a sudden and uncharacteristic anger in them both."
"They had been very busy reaching their pinnacle. Now they had time to look at how they'd been 'sold' to the public,
and they didn't like the reflection in the mirror." (Quoting Ray Coleman).
1975 USA Tour Book, Nothing to quote pertaining to 'image' !
1974 UK Tour Book:
"...white-lace and promises, polka dots and moonbeams...there is a timeless pleasure in the lyrics of love." (Quoting Digby Deihl)
1973 Tour Book:
"Though their personal appeal is rather that of wholesome,unaffected Boy and Girl Next Door..."
"...Sincere,wholesome,unpretentious---
living proof that these virtues can survive...can be lauded and identified with by American Youth."
1972 Tour Book:
"...They don't put people on,they don't put people down.They're sincere. For the Carpenters being 'high' means a
natural, spirited buoyancy that needs no aid from chemical preparations."
1971 Tour Book:
"....brother-sister hit makers, whose gentle harmony, wholesome image, and natural, unpretentious personalities have
virtually crashed through to make them the nation's number one recording team."

 

[K.C. Jr]

The tools photo would have made an awesome album cover! Kind of cheeky like the Beatles' butcher cover, lol.

I agree that photos like this probably didn't help their image:


But I happen to like it.

Personally I've never had a problem with the Carpenters' image. They were and always will be cool in my book. I've never used the term "guilty pleasure" to describe my love for the Carpenters because I've never been ashamed to admit that I like them or their music.

I agree with what you said there, Eyewire! I never had a problem with image...Or with these kind of photos. You summed it up really well.

 

[JBee]

As someone who didn't grow up in the Carpenters' heyday and can only look back on it in retrospect I really do not understand at all why people (both the media/press AND Karen and Richard themselves) were obsessed with their so-called "squeaky clean" image (the fact that in the 1981 GMA interview when both C's were in their 30s and yet Joan Lunden STILL brought that up speaks for itself).

I never got the impression that Karen and Richard ever made themselves out to be goody two shoes (or "goody four shoes" as RC would say) or tried to be something they weren't. In fact (according to Randy's book) in early interviews they expressed views so not in fitting with the way A&M wanted to market them that they had to be reined in and told be to quiet. Later with things like the Rolling Stone interview they seemed desperate for some "street cred" and tried everything to get rid of that image (to the point where in 1976 they had to go and tell People magazine they were not virgins - as if people wanted/needed to know that). Now Donny and Marie I get. They were clean-living Mormons who really did seem to live like their image (for the most part anyway) but neither Karen and Richard seemed to pretend to be anything but suburban middle-class kids with middle-class values (i.e. investing their money, not bothering with groupies, being close to their parents). The fact that this "image" issue still stings (particularly for RC) and is still an issue shows up in the 2009 interview with NPR (only 7 years ago) with Kerry Gross and Richard:

GROSS: Some people thought of the Carpenters as just kind of, like, old-fashioned pop or even corny pop. And then you get somebody coming along like the band Sonic Youth, which takes a song that the Carpenters made famous, "Superstar," puts a totally different spin on it musically - and I wonder what you thought of that?

CARPENTER: Well, I have to speak to this corny business.

GROSS: Yeah, do.

CARPENTER: Yeah, it's traditional American pop...

GROSS: And can I make a confession to you?

CARPENTER: ...Is what it is...

GROSS: OK.

CARPENTER: ...And, you know, they're ignoramuses who say that, OK?

GROSS: OK, I'm going to make a confession to you here, OK? I used to think that you guys were really corny, and it took me a while to really hear what was so good about, you know, the melodies, the arrangements, her singing. I mean - so it took me a while to come around, I'll confess...."

Corny. I don't get how anyone can listen to Rainy Days and Mondays or Goodbye to Love or Road Ode or even much of the Passage album and say that is "corny" (okay, maybe Goofus).
What was it about the Carpenters that they couldn't shake this "image"?
The album covers created by A&M marketing (not by R and K)? I've seen worse from that era..and cheesier.
The fact they did play at the Nixon White House and were praised by him, even though both C's were largely (publicly, at least) apolitical? What? Did the press expect the Carpenters to refuse to play at the request of the President of the United States?
Was it the fact they lived with their parents until their mid-70s? Considering they were on the road at that point two/thirds of the year, why not? A lot of adults in their 20s (commuting college students for one) actually lived at home with their parents in the 70s and beyond (especially women, and especially if you came from a conservative culture). I know my mother did until she got married.
Was it because they weren't rebels, counter-culture or otherwise?
Was it because they were a brother-sister act and the press didn't know how to deal?
Or was it the Weintraub-inspired TV specials starting in 1976 (although the "image" the C's had predate them)? Almost all variety specials back then were cheesy like that, how come Cher gets no "image" guff today for some of the TV stuff she did with Sonny or Captain & Tenille or The Fifth Dimension or even Elton John's video performances from the 70s to mid-80s. But with the Carpenters it's always brought up.

Looking at it now I just find it perplexing.

 

[Tapdancer]

GROSS: OK, I'm going to make a confession to you here, OK? I used to think that you guys were really corny, and it took me a while to really hear what was so good about, you know, the melodies, the arrangements, her singing. I mean - so it took me a while to come around, I'll confess...."

GROSS: "...it took me a while to really hear what was so good about, you know, the melodies, the arrangements, her singing..."

If you can't understand, even after 10 minutes, what it is that makes any piece of music great, then what right does one have to be in this music business and to pass comment?

 

[Geographer]

GROSS: "...it took me a while to really hear what was so good about, you know, the melodies, the arrangements, her singing..."

If you can't understand, even after 10 minutes, what it is that makes any piece of music great, then what right does one have to be in this music business and to pass comment?

So, if I have this correct, Ms. Gross just admitted that she is an ignoramus. A description of her that I totally agree with having listened to some of her other NPR interviews. One reason why I rarely ever listen to NPR anymore.

 

[song4u]

You had to be there.

 

[Guitarmutt]

[Moderators' note: A few posts about Carpenters' Image have been moved over to a very old thread with that very title. As a discussion topic, it merits its own thread.]

I believe that one of the very things that sent Carpenters to the stratosphere of the charts is also the very thing that may have doomed their image, and it comes down to the lyrics from Hal David in "(They Long To Be) Close To You":

"On the day that you were born, the angels got together and decided to create a dream come true. So they sprinkled moon dust in your hair of gold, and starlight in your eyes of blue."

And then you've got the bit about birds appearing as if out of a Disney motion picture. The song's lyrics invite parody. But yet Richard and Karen's recording of it went straight to the top of the charts. It was a throwback sort of song that would have been more at home in the "moon, june, swoon" '50s.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not putting down their first big hit. As a matter of fact, I still consider it a brilliant hit and one of their best, and I can still listen to it at anytime - it never wears out its welcome with me. But those lyrics certainly didn't do them any favors in terms of image.

The pictures of the duo with tools were cute promotional ideas for trade magazines. They weren't ever used or considered for album covers. In fact, in retrospect, THEY might have been better than what WAS used!

Harry

"Moon, June, swoon, etc reminds me of a certain movie that inspired a certain song pulling back to 1940 and ahead to 1970's and alienating some along the way. I can't help but love it. Image indeed!

 

[Bill Bailey]

I was around at the time, I remember where I was when I first heard Close To You in the summer of 1970. Let me give you some background of what went on. When the Carpenters first came up, they hit at a perfect time and they hit the main stream American audience at the time. Wow, if you were on Ed Sullivan and featured on Bob Hope specials, you were main stream. The Carpenters image was a great image, and let me tell you something most incredible, they started in 1969 with the release of the first album with Ticket to Ride. On the second release album Close to You and the resulting smash hit Close to you and the follow up smash hit We've Only Just Begun, by the end of 1970 every person in the United States had heard of the Carpenters and by 1971 every person in
the United States knew who the Carpenters were. The Carpenters had a super image at the time and continued that image. What happened at the same time
the Carpenters were coming up, the expansion of the hard rock audience had emerged and there was some effort on the part of music critics to
describe the Carpenters as goody four shoes or terms such as that. Believe me, those swipes at the Carpenters didn't matter as their image to the
vast majority of the American audience was total respect of their musical prowess and their musical accomplishments.
Many in the hard rock audience at the time bought Carpenters albums even though there was criticism of the Carpenters image. Even with critical quotes, everybody in the country in those years knew how good the Carpenters were musically. In addition, the Carpenters expanded their audience all over the world. There was never anything wrong with the Carpenters image; 20 top ten hits, several number 1 hits, and on and on, how could there be. The Carpenters were loved by the main stream American audience then, and they have millions of fans and admirers today and tomorrow.

 

[theninjarabbit]

Welcome to the forum!

 

[CraigGA]

There was a statement one reviewer made, and I wish I knew the source, but it went something like this...you can take an insipid sweet love song and once Karen's vocals are added you have a sense of reality and this once insipid song now has virtue. I always felt that when they were frustrated with their image it was because it had grown to a statue of something incapable of anyone to achieve, and from all we have read, they wanted people to know that they had real emotions and they also dealt with real life issues. It was once said that no one can be that clean or that good and they were real people working hard to create music to the best of their ability and wanted to be known as hard working musicians. Similes are great for songs, but life reflects reality, with all its ebbs and flows. It's one of the reasons I love the Horizon album, it gives that inner struggle a light in those songs. So, moon dust and starlight are great to describe an innocent young love in a song, but that picture should stay in the song, not fuel a life image. Living life means life happens and an image should be based on hard work and talent, and honor can come to those achievements that are soaked in reality. The music of Carpenters is too good not to see another resurgence, even larger than we saw in the 1990's. I think the right movie soundtrack will come together one day to help this become a reality. I really like what they did in the HBO Vinyl series with Yesterday Once More, I just wished it was Karen singing.

I have converted a few in my life, but it takes a willingness to listen. Just listen to a work lead...Trying to Get The Feeling Again and notice the perfect tatameter in her reading with perfect inflection ending every phase. Then add the perfect pitch and clarity in those low notes. Who can duplicate it in a simple reading. And no one could have made a better arrangement and orchestration than Richard put to that song. And listen to I Can Dream, Can't I - no one can match the emotion and depth given to that song that Karen does. Then add the light jazz on 'Bwana She No Home and how her voice took on another character in its reading, and Solitaire, how perfect are those phrases in a depiction of indifference, loneliness, and acceptance. We have not even begun to talk about Christmas and how Karen and Richard captured the holiday, or how they were a Bacharach's song best friend! Or, the close harmonies in Invocation and the feeling of a cathedral in medieval times and classical sense her voice duplicated in its description. The talent is undeniable! Plus, we have not begun to discuss the instrumental talent outide the voice.

I feel that with the passing of Prince, we can see how the pressure of perfection adds pressure to the efforts of artists. And, it always seems to be the most talented who are captured in its delivery. The result, their life's work, however, for their fans are recordings of perfection.

 

[Dave60640]

To THIS day, the arrangement and KCs vocals give me chills...especially when I hear it playing somewhere in a public setting. On its own, it's amazing. But a Vietnam vet once told me that, with all the sh*# going down over there, he would lie in his bunk at night listening to the radio waiting for his favorite song. And yes, it even made him cry. I didn't even try to be tongue in cheek on that one. It's a fact!

 

[Tim L]

Yes, Dave60640 that is a fact Carpenters music gave many American soldiers in Vietnam at the time comfort, there is no doubt about that.
With a voice as beautiful as Karen Carpenters coming over American forces radio, it must have brought a bright spot to the day.

 

[brycem]

Hi Everyone,

I was just wondering how many of you have had enough of the whole extremely wrong image that Karen and Richard have. I'm 26 and have been a fan in one way or another my whole life having been brought up on the Carpenters, somehow while I was at high school it "got out" that I was into their music. Needless to say I was deemed as Mr Unpopular because of my musical tastes (It didn't stop me from listening though & my friends today don't really give me too much grief).

I honestly believe that had they been put across to the public a bit better then so much of what went down wouldn't of happened to the extent it did.....

Life can be cruel sometimes
Bryce

Wow... I can't even remember starting this thread!!! It's funny how things change when you get older. I couldn't give two hoots what people think of what I like/don't like now.