HA & TJB Popularity

[Numero Cinco]

On Page 3 of the latest Whipped Cream thread, musbyte writes:

I'm new to the forum, which even I find hard to believe since I consider myself somewhat of a die-hard fan of the old TJB. It's rather sad that we all feel, as I do in a way, that there's very little future (as far as sales is concerned) in re-releasing TJB material at this "late hour", but then we should ask ourselves, why are we still here? I'm a firm believer in the power of the internet, right now it's proof positive that older musical interests can be brought back to life if we voice our opinions loudly and channel them in the right direction. Many recording companies are re-mastering tons of 60's material and making it available again, all they need to know is that there will be at least a ball park figure of possible buyers. Rhino has been releasing limited editions of re-issues, such as the Young Rascals box. All we need to do is find a way to make ourselves known. What do you think, webmasters?

Something tells me that this topic has been raised more than once, long before I signed on with this forum. Is the primary reason we haven't seen a reissue that Almo Music, or whoever owns the rights, will not release them to Rhino (or whomever) for a complete CD reissue? Collector's Choice Music ran a Herb/TJB cover on their catalogue some years back; surely it (for one) would know how to draw attention to a reissue. Heck, if a complete reissue were impossible, most of us would settle for the three or four discs that made # 1 during the 60s. Why on earth an album as beautiful as Warm isn't available on CD, while retailers' shelves spill so much crap, is a mystery to me. A very sad mystery, to boot.

Maybe we don't want to admit that we're geezers-in-waiting, but I think it's a pity that good music—any good music—is sequestered away from young fans like Alicia, who just signed onto this forum.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Herb owns the masters to his recordings, and they will get released when HE wants them released. We'll just have to wait until then.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Steven J. Gross]

GEEZERS?

 

[thetijuanataxi]

Well, I for one, hope that Mr. Alpert gets the urge soon, because I think it's a crime that all there is to show for Herb's 40 plus years of making musical magic is one incomplete, poorly mastered CD which doesn't even contain all of his top 40 hits, let alone fan favorites. So maybe the reissues won't tear up the charts like they did in the 60s, but then very few reissues do. The keys would be a solid remastering with original album art and good promotion. After all, how many times have we seen people asking if "Whipped Cream" will ever be released on CD. It was in print for 15 years and so many fans never knew. I would have never known about the discs that were released in 1988 if I wasn't calling A&M every 3 months and asking. Come on guys, we're talking about a group that was big enough to outsell the Beatles at the height of their popularity. Now I'm not trying to get everyone riled up about reissues again, but it's easy to understand why people, especially newcomers to the forum, keep bringing this issue up. There IS a market for Herb's music. But that market has to know that the albums are available. I mean, how many CDs would Mariah Carey have sold if there weren't life-size cardboard promos of her in every record store?

David,
stretching out his arms and saying "Ohm-Ohm-Ohm"..........

 

[Steven J. Gross]

When you are worth a trillion, you probably don't see any urgency...

 

[DAN BOLTON]

When you are worth a trillion, you probably don't see any urgency...

Actually, it's only half-a-billion, but who's counting?

Seriously...Herb is probably the most astute businessman/musician to ever come down the pike; and when the time is right, he'll most likely release some, if not all of his material. He didn't buy the rights to everything just to sit on it all...


Be patient, people...Herb will decide when the time is right, and it'll be done right. And, it'll be worth the wait.

Dan

 

[Rudy]

Herb owns the masters to his recordings, and they will get released when HE wants them released. We'll just have to wait until then.

Plus, there's the fact that he's a forward thinking artist and would rather not revisit the past.

The vinyl's better anyway. Trust me.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

The vinyl's better anyway. Trust me.

That's a very good point. I've been listening a lot to the 45s of the TJB lately, and they even sound better than some of the CDs. I've already done a compilation of the charted hits of the TJB, but now I'm going to redo it by using the 45s instead of the various CDs (and a couple of the LPs) that have been out. There's just enough differences to make it worthwhile IMHO.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Maybe the tapes have deteriorated.

Although there WAS that article in Billboard about 3 years ago in which Herb was quoted, "There are a whole bunch of unreleased songs we may be putting out."

And, when I talked to Mike Ragogna at Universal (around the same time) he said that a Herb box set "needs to happen, and it will happen some time."

So hope springs eternal. I can't agree about the vinyl sounding better though.....MINE doesn't. Played 'em too many times!

 

[bob]

mike your right the tapes might have drop outs, look that the definitive hits
tijuana taxi the last part of the song with the drums on the right channel
it does drop out. but with modern techs today I think they could remaster it and bring up the drop outs. and if there are drop outs , they can simply
go to other recordings and since it was digitally master. they could use those. but if those masters of the unreleased albums like sounds like, the ninth and others. that have not been played in over 40 years I can see the problem.
bob papp

 

[thetijuanataxi]

I don't buy the theory of tape degredation. If they had just used the tape source for "Greatest Hits" or the Japanese "Going Places" master for "Tijuana Taxi" on DEFECTIVE HITS, the sound quality would have been fine. I'm sure there are a number of other sources they could have used. I believe it was just corporate carelessness. Who knows whether they really use the original tapes anyway? Remember, they claim to have used original master tapes on CLASSICS VOL. 1 and we all know how unlikely that was. I believe that the masters to "Sounds Like", "Warm" and the other yet unreleased TJB material is alive and well somewhere. If the originals are not in the best shape there are multiple back up copies that would be good enough for a CD release. "Casino Royale" and "Bo-Bo" sound fine to me on CD as I'm sure the rest of the albums would IF they are mastered properly. I don't really believe that Herb was as involved with the mastering process of DEFECTIVE HITS to the degree that Universal would have us believe. I think that he would have noticed the poor sound quality on "Taxi" and used another master. Just my opinion there. As for the reissues, I can understand if Herb doesn't want to put the time and effort into taking on the project, but I can't, with all due respect to Herb, understand why he wouldn't license another company to do it. Unless, as Dan stated, Herb has something in the works that will be worth the wait. He's got to know by now that we are all awaiting the news patiently. While it is ultimately Herbs perrogative and decision what to release and when, I hope he values the appreciation of his loyal fans who keep requesting his music after 40 years. Herb will always be my idol and favorite musician regardless of whether he releases his music on CD. I just think there is a benefit to keep expressing our desires respectfully on this forum, especially if Herb does visit us from time to time. He doesn't need the money at this point, so the inspiration from his fans and their undying appreciation of his music, I would think, would be the most likely motivation to do the reissues.

David,
respectfully quieting down now

 

[bob]

david aka tijuana taxi
read your post about tape drop outs, if I understood you right, you do not buy the theory of that. ok see if tapes are not stored right, like example
the old 8 track tapes or cassettes in the car. if they are stored in heat and cold see here is the thing about reel tapes which I can remember the old reel to reel tapes. and the scotch brand tapes the blanks 7" reels if they are not stored in constant warm places as the tape ages becasue that is magnetic tape. and old tapes you can actually see the part that touches the tape heads will come off in your hand like dirt. but we really don't know how the masters to herb old albums were actually stored. so maybe herb does not want to put the money into it. but I promise this, if he does
take on this project maybe herb does not thinks those will sell. and we all can remind herb. if he does read this post. it is us tjb fans that gave the tjb all of them gold records.so getting back to the topic. who knows maybe the tapes were not stored right, and remember thoses tapes are over 40 years old. but with modern tech. as you said they can use other master sources.
bob

 

[Rudy]

The vinyl's better anyway. Trust me.

That's a very good point. I've been listening a lot to the 45s of the TJB lately, and they even sound better than some of the CDs. I've already done a compilation of the charted hits of the TJB, but now I'm going to redo it by using the 45s instead of the various CDs (and a couple of the LPs) that have been out. There's just enough differences to make it worthwhile IMHO.

It also depends on the CD or vinyl version, too...to me, the Whipped Cream CD sounds among the worst of the original album CDs, but then again the vinyl isn't so hot either. (I think some of the songs suffer from some track "bouncing", the only way they could record multiple parts on three-channel equipment in those days.) South Of The Border is, I think, the best sounding of the bunch on CD. I wouldn't touch Foursider even on vinyl, considering it was compiled from numerous sources. (The Brasil '66 Foursider has to be one of the worst A&M CDs I've ever heard...the TJB sounds better, at least.) For Lonely Bull, I'd almost rather hear the mono LP version over the stereo with the twin-track (aka "fake stereo") overdubs. An ideal Lonely Bull would have only the true stereo tracks, with mono for songs like the title track and "Acapulco 1922" which were overdubbed later on to create stereo.

The 45s are unique in that they were compressed during the mastering/cutting stage. There are separate 45 mixes for some of the singles, but whoever cut and/or mastered the production of the single decided what EQ and compression to use. That's why, even on the mono "Dee Jay Sampler" LP, the songs still sound closer to the mono LPs than some of the singles do. The "Tijuana Taxi"/"Zorba" single is the best example of that. The mix is the same, but the end result (tweaked EQ making it brighter, and the limiter "smashing" the dynamics out of it) is a lot different.

I still don't mind the CDs so much (they appear to be flat transfers, which is a good thing), but given a choice at home, I'm reaching for the LPs to listen to.

 

[musbyte]

It's really interesting to read about all the different opinions as to why no new CD's are being released. I'm partly in agreement with Cap. Bacardi that Alpert owns his material and will release more as he sees fit. However, why have there only been a few individual albums, and definetely not all the best ones, released on CD? Why those specific ones? I also agree with some of the other folks in that Whipped Cream is of poor quality indeed, particularly when compared with The Lonely Bull. So maybe Whipped Cream was rushed out with the first source tape they found. Maybe Alpert didn't want that to happen to the rest of the releases? Maybe Alpert has enough money and doesn't want to bother with Old TJB projects? I don't think so. I think that along the way since the early 70's (or before) many of those valuable tapes have either been lost, damaged in storage, cannot be identified, or are in such a state of disarray that Alpert and others involded are still evaluating what possible worthwhile product any restoration efforts would yield. Otherwise, why haven't we seen any of the other top albums like Going Places, SRO, Sounds Like, 9th? There's also the possibility of red tape, we don't really know of the legalities involved, we just assume that Alpert's music is all his in every respect without regard to the musical content, particularly when Alpert re-arranged a lot of music written by other artists.

 

[thetijuanataxi]

Considering that Herb Alpert owned the company these masters belonged to, and judging by the CD releases of Sergio Mendes, Chris Montez, Sandpipers, Claudine Longet, Baja Marimba that were all about the same age and sound pretty well preserved to me, I'd say it's unlikely that there is any serious defecit of suitable TJB masters available for CD mastering. No, there's something else to it that we don't have knowledge of. So unless Mr. Alpert visits the Forum and tells us what the hold up is, all we can do is speculate and try to be patient. Hopefully Herb has something great in the works. If he does, he's not spilling the beans as of yet. But again, I don't buy the deterioration theory. After all, there are Louis Armstrong masters from the 1920's that survived to see the CD format and we're only talking about the 60's here.

David,
thinking maybe there are 2 "Conspiracies" connected to the 1960's

 

[Captain Bacardi]

However, why have there only been a few individual albums, and definetely not all the best ones, released on CD? Why those specific ones? Otherwise, why haven't we seen any of the other top albums like Going Places, SRO, Sounds Like, 9th?

Actually, Going Places was released on CD in the US and Japan and S.R.O. was released in Japan only. It's interesting that the US CDs that were out for a while were the same LPs that were only available during the 70's. I believe it was around '73 or so that many of the LPs went out of print and those titles never saw the light of day since then on either LP or CD. Only Herb can tell us why.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Mr Bill]

Actually, Going Places was released on CD in the US and Japan and S.R.O. was released in Japan only. It's interesting that the US CDs that were out for a while were the same LPs that were only available during the 70's. I believe it was around '73 or so that many of the LPs went out of print and those titles never saw the light of day since then on either LP or CD. Only Herb can tell us why.

It's true that all the TJB LPs in print in the 80s were released on CD. This was not long after they were relegated to the SP31xx/32xx valu-line (mid-price) series.

As for when most went out of print, I can use the year I "discovered" the TJB as a reference. In 1972 I started taking my filmmaking seriously and found my parents' TJB music was a good fit. I immediately went in search of more TJB music. At the time S.R.O., Sounds Like, Ninth, Christmas Album and Warm were out of print. Brass Are Comin' and Summertime went OP a couple years later.

The revived TJB LPs, You Smile -- The Song Begins and Coney Island each went OP a few years after their original release. Of course, Christmas Album came back in print in 1979 or 80 directly into the valu-line series with a somewhat stylized reworking of the original cover.

The two collaborations with Hugh Masekela went OP about 5 or 6 years after release, with the live one being renumbered (never repressed) and effectively "cut out" into the valu-line. The first saw rerelease on CD in 1988's A&M CD boom as part of the "jazz heritage" series.

As for solo Herb only two have not seen re-issue on CD (in the US), his first, Just You & Me and Beyond. Everything else started appearing on CD in 1985 culminating with the 1988 A&M CD boom (as I call it). I believe Keep Your Eye On Me was the first to appear simultaneously on vinyl, tape and CD. (If I'm off an LP or two it may have been My Abstract Heart or Under A Spanish Moon)...

For now all we can do is hope for a CD re-release of all our favorites. The ball is in Herb's court for now...

--Mr Bill

 

[Harry]

Thanks, Mr. Bill for that timeline.

I hadn't thought about the fact that the CDs were just companions to what existed in print on LP in 1988, but I guess that's true. I had always thought that there was a chronological release of the first six (and BEAT OF THE BRASS because of the hit status of Herb's biggest TJB-era recording). I just mistakenly figured that the next "wave" would include SRO, SOUNDS LIKE, NINTH, etc. and later when that didn't happen, figured that the existing CDs just didn't sell all that well.

I'm glad I picked up what was out there while it was out there, especially SRO from Japan, even though it sounds like crap.

I believe Mr. Bill is correct about KEEP YOUR EYE ON ME being the first with a simultaneous release in CD, LP, and cassette. I remember getting the LP early in its release history and thinking I still needed to get the CD - an easy choice since I liked the album.

Harry
...noting that on GREATEST HITS VOL 2, the CHRISTMAS ALBUM is listed as out-of-print, online...

 

[Stephen Vakil]

I'm as desperate as anyone else for some reissues - although not another standard compilation of the songs we've already got 26 times! - but I'm also eager to hear something new. We've been tantalised by Herb's work as a guest artist on a number of albums over the last few years - his improvisation on Shadow of the Cat proves he's still at the peak of his game - as well as the soundtrack to the documentary Music for Your Eyes. While some of that material was drawn from past collaborations, I suspect that some of it was not and the improvisation there is right up with his best work.

Five years since Colors? Time for a new jazz album from Mr A!

Stephen

 

[Brasil_Nut]

Although this has all been hashed over many times, I'm believe that Herb is probably in the process of compiling, mixing and producing the TJB catalogue for eventual release. I'll bet Lani has a hand in the creative end as well. Herb knows there's a market for this material. Of this I'm certain. The release of this material is a comprehensive project, especially considering the fact that he owns the masters, and will likely tackle this (with a great deal of help) on his own.

Whatever the case, patience is the key. We like to never thought the Sergio Mendes catalogue would see the light of day, but it did -- A&M, Bell, Elektra releases and all. Now, that's progress!

Hey! At least we have something to look forward to!!

Jon

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I do believe the CDs didn't sell all that well when originally released, and I know why.

1. At that time, almost EVERYTHING was coming out on CD because every record company was desperate to get product out there.

2. People who are big TJB fans, being children of the 60s, probably did not "early-adopt" into the CD format for quite a while. (People like us music fanatics excepted, of course.)

3. Since the TJBs weren't high-priority new releases, they were relegated to the "easy listening" department of the store and forgotten about.

4. By the time those TJB fans finally got CD players (probably as part of new cars, in a lot of cases) the TJB CDs had been deleted -- or, just as likely, the new CD owners just didn't happen to wander into the Easy Listening section, because they've gotten so hateful of that "crap" masquerading as music that they haven't been into a music store in 20 years.

If the records were marketed properly-- not just shoved into the Easy Listening section, which nobody usually dares walk into anyway -- they'd probably sell fairly well.

 

[AM Matt]

Back around November or December of 1988 when they reissued some of Herb's CD's, I went & picked up "The Beat Of The Brass" but back then, I should have pick up the others. Too bad!! Matt Clark Sanford, MI

 

[Don]

I really hope Herb gets his TJB CD's reissued.....the sooner the better!!!!!! As most of us, including Herb, aren't getting any younger!!!!!!!!!!

 

[thetijuanataxi]

I'm not so sure the TJB CDs from 1988 didn't sell to well, at least judging by eBay. They keep popping up periodically and some such as "Whipped Cream", "The Lonely Bull" and "Christmas Album" show up almost as often as their vinyl counterparts.

David,
agreeing with Mike about the lack of proper promotion on TJB releases

 

[Brasil_Nut]

I do believe the CDs didn't sell all that well when originally released, and I know why.

At that time, almost EVERYTHING was coming out on CD because every record company was desperate to get product out there.

True. I worked in a local Wherehouse store when the CDs were released. In true record company fashion, practically everything -- save for rarities (which ironically are now seeing the light of day) -- was being released in the the 'new' CD format.

People who are big TJB fans, being children of the 60s, probably did not "early-adopt" into the CD format for quite a while. (People like us music fanatics excepted, of course.)

True again. I've said it many times before...I'll say it many times again: I could kick myself for not buying the CDs at the time of their original release. What's worse, I worked in a store that sold them! Although I had a CD player, most of my A&M material was in Lp form. I liked it that way. I figured, "I'll have to pick up copies of the Mendes and Alpert CDs one of these days." They went out of print shortly thereafter.

Since the TJBs weren't high-priority new releases, they were relegated to the "easy listening" department of the store and forgotten about.

True again. The Wherehouse had TJB material in the 'Easy Listening' section, as did Tower and several other well known record stores of the time. The same can be said for Sergio Mendes, whose material I have found in "Easy Listening," "Vocals," "Latin," "Brazilian," "Jazz" and "Pop."
To this day, a local Tower has Sergio in two sections: "Vocals" and "Brazilian Jazz" -- you have to look in two different sections; the "Brazilian Jazz" section usually stocked with Imports.

If the records were marketed properly-- not just shoved into the Easy Listening section, which nobody usually dares walk into anyway -- they'd probably sell fairly well.

Well said, Mike! These days it's all about "Hip Hop," "Rap" and "Garage Bands" who appeal to the young -- typical aim of the music industry. It's a real shame that good music is relegated to the back of the bin, or placed into categories where it does not belong.

Jon