HA & TJB Popularity

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'd agree with those points. Although considered an "early adopter" by my friends, I was late in buying my first CD player mainly because at the time I owned in excess of 14,000 vinyls and one solitary CD!

By the time the balance started to shift, the CDs were mostly out of print. A few - like "Whipped Cream" sat in the browsers of some city stores, but these were "Imports" and sold for around £20 each. With vinyl at around £3 - £4 an album, twenty quid for something I already had seemed a daft idea. Then.

Now I look eagerly for Herb's CDs in every shop I visit. Our local good indie, "Fopp" files him under "Jazz". When they have anything, which isn't very often.

I'd disagreee on the deterioration point, though. Having compiled commercial albums from 60s and 70s masters, I can tell you that in many big record companies, there's quiet panic that many original multitrack tapes are unplayable. This isn't a result of poor storage - big record labels look after their assets - but a result of poor manufacturing. Certain master tape brands - notably from the 70s - were hailed as technically perfect at the time, but now suffer from serious shedding as a result of the adhesive either turning to dust, or sticking as a consequence of the adhesive bleeding to the edges and attaching itself firmly to the first piece of metal on a tape machine that it comes across.

Does Herb Alpert care and is he working on a re-release project? I'd guess he cares (after all the music is as much his offspring as his children are) but he may well prefer it to remain in the past. Yesterday I gave my 17-year old sun a CD of the Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra playing instrumental versions of Rolling Stones material. It's a collector's classic, and after changing hands for silly money it eventually found its way on to CD. My son was delighted with the music (one track was the basis of The Verve's "Bitter Sweet Symphony") - but was singularly unimpressed with the sound. The 1966 recording quality was poor - distortion, noise, excessive compression, all sorts of things. He asked if I could get someone to "clean it up", pointing out that he's accustomed to much better technical quality nowadays. And he's quite right. Herb's recent recordings are bright and clean, and with the best will in the world, tracks from albums like "Lonely Bull" don't sit comfortably alongside.

The contractual side of the business can also be a minefield. I have no idea how the original rights were assigned, but I'd hazard a guess that even if it all seems like Herb "owns" his stuff, there's almost bound to be someone, somewhere who claims otherwise, and is willing to do so in a court if there's a few bucks to be made as a result. In the early days of the TJB, material was leased to overseas labels - like Pye Records in London - and there may well be a residual right of ownership in some territories. (I know that most of these contracts were limited to a few years duration, but some may not have been.)

In the end, we must preserve and protect the recordings we already have in our collections, and keep our fingers crossed that we haven't already heard the final chapter of the TJB story.
 
TonyCurrie said:
I'd agree with those points. Although considered an "early adopter" by my friends, I was late in buying my first CD player mainly because at the time I owned in excess of 14, 000 vinyls and one solitary CD!

......

I'd disagreee on the deterioration point, though. Having compiled commercial albums from 60s and 70s masters, I can tell you that in many big record companies, there's quiet panic that many original multitrack tapes are unplayable. This isn't a result of poor storage - big record labels look after their assets - but a result of poor manufacturing. Certain master tape brands - notably from the 70s - were hailed as technically perfect at the time, but now suffer from serious shedding as a result of the adhesive either turning to dust, or sticking as a consequence of the adhesive bleeding to the edges and attaching itself firmly to the first piece of metal on a tape machine that it comes across.

I was about as early of a CD adopter as anyone I know. It had to be 1983 when I bought my first three CDs...then got a few early imports. Took a few months to get a CD player, as I had to buy one "grey market" so I didn't spend $1,000 for a Sony. (I think I paid $400-$500 for the first-generation Hitachi, which was the same machine Denon rebadged as their own first model.)

As for the deteriorating tape, a lot of it (most of it?) was that dreaded Ampex Grand Master 456. A great tape when it was new, but IIRC the binder was unstable and about the only way to play some of these is to send them out to be baked. Then you have one good shot to transfer it to another tape (either analog or digital). I think A&M's 60s masters are probably safe--I think the bad batches of this tape were made in the 70s.

Not many companies making analog mastering tape these days. Brands like Entec, Scotch (3M), BASF and others are no longer in production. Quantegy (formerly Ampex) is about all that is left.
 
Herb's recent recordings are bright and clean, and with the best will in the world, tracks from albums like "Lonely Bull" don't sit comfortably alongside.

There you have it...one of the best arguments for full-album reissues!
 
In our "for what it's worth" department...the most recent encounter I had with Herb (this would be during his Listen perfume tour), I asked him a lot of questions related to the perfume and current music of the day, and got enthusiastic responses. When I asked him about the old stuff being released on CD, he got quiet...almost like I had turned off a light switch. Same thing happened over the phone when I asked about it at the end of an interview about "Under a Spanish Moon." Strong and strange vibes.

He is very big on moving forward, experimenting with new things. The New York Times article about him was titled, "Tijuana Brass, right?" "Don't ask."

On the other hand, he said he was driving along in 1983 and popped in a cassette of the old stuff, and that it started to feel right again. Which is why he reformed the group to perform a concert during the 1984 Olympics in LA.

Maybe the stars will align and he'll once again feel comfortable about this project (which would be a huge undertaking).

Finally...has anybody ever heard his version of "The Lady in My Life"? I had a copy and it was stolen. B-side of a cassette.
 
Finally...has anybody ever heard his version of "The Lady in My Life"? I had a copy and it was stolen. B-side of a cassette.

Which version are you referring to? The "B" side of "I Need You" or the one on his Colors album? I have the Japanese 3" CD on "I Need You/The Lady In My Life", plus the 45. I prefer this version to the one on Colors.


Capt. Bacardi
 
I think he's referring to the A&M version, not the newer ALMO Sounds version. That would be the b-side to the single of "I Need You" as the Captain mentions.

I only have the 45 - didn't know the Japanese released it as a 3" CD single.

Harry
...who put this on his own Herb Alpert rarities CD, online...
 
I just had a dismal thought. What if the reason that Herb Alpert bought the rights to all his masters is so that noone can re-release the old albums? If he really experiences such negativity when people ask him about TJB, maybe he wants to close the door on any future TJB projects.

David,
hoping he's wrong:sad:
 
I do not understand why Herb Alpert would want to do something like that...certainly he knows and appreciates what the popularity of the Tijuana Brass has meant to his career as a musician and businessman.

I certainly do not know what goes on in anyone's mind, but what constructive purpose would be served by actively blocking the release of those albums?

If it was something to be ashamed of, I can certainly see why there would be a desire for it to more or less "go away." But that certainly isn't the case here.

I guess I don't understand the motive for an action of that nature.

But, who can fathom the depths of the human mind?
 
thetijuanataxi said:
I just had a dismal thought. What if the reason that Herb Alpert bought the rights to all his masters is so that noone can re-release the old albums?

I think that's a little far-fetched. I believe he has his own masters so that when he does reissue them it will be done with the integrity that he has always done his stuff with. It won't be left to some company putz with a bone through his nose doing something ungodly to his music. As with most things in his career, it will be done his way.


Capt. Bacardi
 
The Captain's probably right. My strain of pessimism was probably brought on by the fact that I had to work on the 4th......

David,
who's now engaging in chocolate therapy........
 
I think one observation might be that he despised the idea that his work would wind up alongside dozens of titles in the cut-out bin for $3.99.
 
Captain Bacardi said:
I think that's a little far-fetched. I believe he has his own masters so that when he does reissue them it will be done with the integrity that he has always done his stuff with. It won't be left to some company putz with a bone through his nose doing something ungodly to his music. As with most things in his career, it will be done his way.

If that's his intention, I hope that he gets on with the project and doesn't wait too long. He's not getting any younger after all, and a lot of things can happen healthwise as a person ages, often with little or no warning. In a few years, heaven forbid, he may not be as capable, physically or mentally, to oversee such a reissue project. Then it will either never happen, or fall to your kid "with a bone through his nose" anyway... :rolleyes:

Murray
...who hopes that Herb is in perfect health at 100, but also hopes that he doesn't wait until then to reissue the TJB stuff...
 
I think one observation might be that he despised the idea that his work would wind up alongside dozens of titles in the cut-out bin for $3.99.

You're absolutely 100% correct, Richard. Herb has stated that he never wishes for his albums to end up in the cut-out bin; an idea he despises.

Jon
 
Remember that Herb is a creative man first and foremost, and that like many really talented creative people, he's likely to be very concerned about the way his creative work is perceived. I know several similar musicians - really clever talented people who are all seen by the rest of the world as hugely successful, but who constantly worry that their work isn't good enough.

Herb will always be seeking perfection, will rarely be content with what he's produced (be it music or artworks) and will constantly question the nature of his own talent.

A man of his nature - quiet, reflective, sensitive - is often happier not to have his works exposed to the public than see them devalued and rejected. We've often considered on these forums the fact that in 2004, the TJB material is something of a minority taste, albeit a large minority around the world. Herb has lived with his music being amongst the most successful on the planet, and I suspect he's not keen for it now to be cut-price, special offer, golden oldie fodder.

That's why he's always looking forward rather than back, and that, I suspect, is what's behind his reluctance to talk about and reissue his past works.

I may say that in many ways I consider a great deal of what he's achieved in the last five or six years (both in music and art) to be of a very different nature to his past works, and I enjoy and appreciate it all.

Having said that, I'm still happy to listen to TLB/SRO/etc and enjoy them as masterpieces of their time. Perhaps Herb isn't.
 
I met Berry Gordy (Motown founder) about 10 years ago and asked him what he was listening to- He responded that he was "kinda sick of all of it " (at that point). Maybe the sound of the TJB is no longer music to Herb's ears. Who knows.
 
Some very insightful and perhaps accurate observations on the reissue topic...

There is one thing that I have been thinking about recently, and it concerns the impact of changing technology on this entire matter.

I was always content listening to vinyl albums when vinyl albums were the basic medium on which music in general was recorded and packaged.

Then, cassette tapes came along as an alternative to albums; perhaps not to replace vinyl - or maybe cassettes were the next step in replacing vinyl; I dunno - but as an alternative source of recorded music for the car tape deck, portable cassette player, boom-box, etc. Cassette tape, IMO, offered less fidelity that vinyl, but had the advantage of portability, and many of the playback devices were relatively low fidelity anyway. In addition, cassettes offered the opportunity to listen to music in the car - previously the province of either radio or the old 8 track format.

Now, the CD has generally replaced all these previous formats and offers both fidelity and portability, as well as more long term durability and less degradation of fidelity due to wear and tear than either vinyl or tape. Most newer automobiles now have CD players, so this is now the basic medium for car audio. And, I can even see that changing to include the MP3(which I will confess that I do not understand at all)...

Now, I have all the TJB vinyl recordings - some in better condition than others, but all still good enough to play and sound decent...if I had the equipment to play them with. I no longer have a turntable, and am not sure if I could even find one for a reasonable price anyway. And, I am assuming that the auxiliary connections on the back of my stereo system will allow for a turntable. It seems that much typical stereo equipment today - other than perhaps the separate component and/or audiophile end of the spectrum - assumes that a turntable doesn't exist. And, if I had a turntable, I would also need to own the equipment to turn these vinyl albums that I could play on the turntable into CDs, if I wanted to hear them in my car, since neither of my cars have tape decks, but CD players instead. So, I'm no longer faced with the relatively simple issue of dubbing vinyl to tape as before - it's now vinyl to CD.

SO, what is the point of all this ranting?

Simply, if the vinyl was available on CD - the current technology - I could just buy the CDs - problem solved - rather than try to figure out if and how to create CDs out of vinyl albums.

I know this is not Herb Alpert's problem - how to get my albums into CDs - but it's a personal reason why I'd like to see the albums reissued on CD. It simply affords me the opportunity to listen to the music using today's technology. So much easier for my situation, and perhaps others. Sometimes, it seems like this reissue thing is like trying to find shoes for horses in an automobile world. We don't ride horses(ala vinyl albums)anymore. Without the music being available in the format of the current technology, it makes it very difficult to listen to it period.

I, for one, do not own the equipment or have the technical expertise to solve my problem. I do have the funds, however, to buy the CDs, if they were available... :)

And, I know...what will the next thing be that technology will bring forth that will make the CD go the way of the vinyl album? :sad:
 
:sad:
Captain Dave, I share your grief. As a new member I haven't addressed any other subject in my 3 weeks here. First things first, you can still find a new turntable quite easily through mail order (places like www.pssl.com), and won't have to spend a fortune either; $100 - $200 for a decent one. As far as your equipment not being "turntable ready" (no PHONO input) your best bet is to find a turntable model with a built-in magnetic pre-amp, which will be ready to connect to any "line level" input in your stereo gear, such as a "AUX, CD, TAPE IN" using standard RCA connectors. When it comes to gear for converting records & tapes to CD the most important tool is a computer with a CDRW drive, the software needed can be downloaded for free and recordable CD'sc are available cheaply anywhere. Of course, additional time is required to do the LP recording (in real time) onto the computer's hard disk drive, as well as a little basic knowledge.

As far as the release of TJB recordings on CD, I'd like to suggest to all TJB enthusiasts that maybe we can write Herb Alpert and request permission (in view that he won't release CD's of the music we're all willing to purchase again) to interchange MP3's or maybe even whole CD's of converted TJB LP's among us. It sounds crazy but all we have to lose is a little time. Maybe if he realizes that there's still a meaningful intrerest in his old music we may start seeing some limited quantity releases. I've done some conversions to CD for my own private use, noise and scratch reduced, but I'm still in need of some LP's.
 
I can understand Herb "not wanting to live in the past." Jack Benny was famous for this too...I heard an interview of him once where he was asked, "Do you miss the old days of radio?" He said "No. I don't care about the past. I want to think about the future."

But that hasn't stopped his estate from releasing batches and batches of his old radio shows.

C'mon, Herb. Nobody said you had to LISTEN to the old stuff. Just RELEASE it. :D
 
Actually, I think it boils down to the music bringing up some painful memories of that time of his life. Some, but not all, has been written about what he went through in the TJB's waning days. Divorce, drugs, therapy...and of course, that pain led to an awakening that made him a more successful human.
 
If there's a market...there'll be reissues. I doubt that we'll ever see any TJB albums in the cutout bins, because there are ways to assure that that never happens...limited edition box sets, for example. I doubt that Herb is "sitting on" his stuff...he'll release it again , someday...it would simply cost too much to buy all the rights just to keep the music off the market and out of the cutout bins...I mean, what is the real difference between a cutout bin and the record department at the local thrift store?

Dan
 
I don't think he paid anything for it...getting the rights to his and Lani's catalog was probably part of the terms of the sale of A&M...
 
I don't think he paid anything for it...getting the rights to his and Lani's catalog was probably part of the terms of the same of A&M...

:agree: Also, eliminating all of the TJB titles except for Definitive Hits sure looks like a move to deplete inventory and create demand. May not be for a year or two, or three or more, but I"m sure these will get reissued at some point in the future. At least the popular titles will...I doubt the lesser-known TJBs are marketable enough.
 
captain dave, in your post above you mention turntables, well just to let you know best buy and radio shack still sells them, because I had bought a sony turntable there for a little under a $100.00 dollars at best buy.
last year and they still have them there. and some of the newer recievers
have the plugs in the back for a phono imput.
bob papp
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom