question about Definitive Hits

[gameenjoyer]

As luck would have it, while my mother was in the hospital over the weekend, when I went to visit her, I happened to stop by the Walmart in that town and they had a copy of Definitive Hits, which I immediately snagged and purchased. One thing confuses me though:

How in the world are "Diamonds" and "Making Love in the Rain" definitive hits for Herb Alpert? Both of them are obviously carried more by the female vocalists than by Herb's trumpet. I'm not saying that they're necessarily bad songs (they aren't), but they don't seem appropriate for a Herb Alpert hits album, and I would think hits from other Alpert solo albums that were more Alpert-carried would be more appropriate. After all, only three of Alpert's solo albums are even represented on the CD, and he released far more than that.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

"Diamonds" was a huge hit for Herb and "Making Love" was a Top 40 hit, so that's probably the main reason. They charted better than a lot of other solo singles. Now as to whether they are "definitive" or not depends on your point of view. Most of us agreed back when this was released that this was a type of "contractual obligation" release with the Universal-owned A&M. If you recall there was an agreement to have Uni sell the remaining titles that were still in stock at the time, so the thought was maybe a greatest hits kind of thing would help clear out the inventory so that Herb could get the masters back and do his thing.



Capt. Bacardi

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Also - the answer is in the title. Definitive HITS. Although there are a few hits from the Brass years that weren't included, this was meant as a career overview with a eye toward good sales. Hence, the best known "hits" from his whole career are featured. The bottom line is, even though "Diamonds" and "Making Love in the Rain" are driven more by the vocalists, they still have Herb's name on them so they deserve to be on a Herb Alpert hits collection.

The package has done its job, too; quite often it's the top selling Herb Alpert title. (It trades places with WHIPPED CREAM regularly, although lately ANYTHING GOES has held the top spot.)

 

[Harry]

It's been a durable title, that's for sure. One of our earlier discussions of it can be found here:

http://forum.amcorner.com/viewtopic.php?t=144&highlight=definitive+hits

And it has the nostalgic characteristic of being (to date), the final Herb Alpert release with an A&M logo on it.

Harry

 

[thetijuanataxi]

Does your copy still have the dropouts on TIJUANA TAXI, or have they finally fixed that?

David

 

[gameenjoyer]

thetijuanataxi, I'd love to answer your question, but, unfortunately, I don't know enough about recording technology to even know what you're asking. If you can explain to me exactly what you mean, I'll be happy to check for you though.

Oh, and regarding the comments so far, by no means was I saying that "Diamonds" or "Making Love in the Rain" are bad songs, or that they weren't hits. Please understand that. It's just that I have a hard time accepting them as hits for Herb Alpert. I just saw another topic a couple days ago that "Diamonds" is going to be on a hits compilation for Janet Jackson (who I am therefore assuming is the vocalist on that song), and that is fine by me.

In all likelihood, by 1987 or whenever Keep Your Eye On Me was released, that song charted as high as it did because of this Jackson girl, whoever she is, and not because of Alpert, and would be a definitive hit for her, therefore, not for him. I would say the same thing of "Making Love in the Rain". They may be definitive hits for the vocalists, but they are probably better known as songs by the vocalists than as songs by Alpert, or, at least, from my vantage point as someone who wasn't old enough to care back when Keep Your Eye On Me was originally released, they sound like songs by the vocalists with Herb playing some trumpet lines as part of the accompaniment, and nothing more. I realize that there will be differences of opinion, though, and I respect that.

Nobody's really answered my question as to why only three of Alpert's solo albums are represented either. I'd really like to know why those two songs were picked instead of Alpert hits from other of his solo albums.

 

[Steve Sidoruk]

Herb & Jerry had litigation pending against PolyGram, which was later inherited by Universal. After some years, it was settled in a deal that also sold their music publishing companies (Rondor, including what was Almo and Irving) to Uni and the return of Herb's masters to him. Also included was one last Herb A&M release, Definitive Hits.

Even before Herb got his master tapes back, he did have the right of refusal for any Universal product featuring his music. Most of the compilations featuring A&M artists, did not include any Herb solo or TJB tracks. An example of an all Herb project was "Mi Historia." We knew the title, knew the supposed tracks, but it was given a and it was never released.

While "Def Hits" got some special treatment as far as putting the project together, I can't help but thinking that Herb had mixed feelings about it. Perhaps too, he and Jerry were already thinking about a down the road re-issue project. So why would they want to give A&M, which wasn't theirs any more, in excess of what was required to finish the settlement deal. Besides as we've discussed this here ad nauseum, there is no way that a single CD compilation could do justice to Herb's TJB and solo back catalog. So consequently, difficult choices had to be made in the selection process.

As for "Diamonds," & "Making Love In The Rain," regardless of what some people think, they are sourced from a HERB ALPERT album, credited to HERB ALPERT, with "lead & background vocals by Janet Jackson & Lisa Keith."

 

[Harry]

And to add to Steve's excellent explanation, Herb's other solo "hits" weren't as big as the ones here. Some of his solo singles did some middling charting on various charts like R&B, Jazz, Dance, Adult Contemporary, etc. But the solo tracks on DEFINITIVE HITS were indeed his biggest.

While a couple of the TJB tracks weren't exactly big hits, they were nevertheless big items in Herb's TJB repertoire, recognized by millions by their use in game shows, etc.

Harry

 

[Mike Blakesley]

they are sourced from a HERB ALPERT album, credited to HERB ALPERT, with "lead & background vocals by Janet Jackson & Lisa Keith."

Right. Back in those days, when the record charted, the chart would just list the main artist's name...whereas if those records charted today, it would say "Herb Alpert feat. Janet Jackson and Lisa Keith." (I suppose there are some kids out there who think "feat." is a real word.)

 

[gameenjoyer]

Fair enough. Thank you for the prompt and informative answers to my questions. Now if I could just find a copy of Anything Goes, I'd be in Alpert heaven.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

gameenjoyer: The easiest way to find the "dropouts" mentioned above, is: Play Tijuana Taxi with your balance control cranked all the way to the right. Listen near the end of the song and, if the problem has not been fixed, you'll hear the music cut-out a couple of times, as if the tape had been erased. (which is no doubt what really happened!)

I would put the exact locations of the dropouts here but I don't have my CD with me...maybe someone else will do that.

 

[gameenjoyer]

I don't know that much about technological stuff Mr. Blakesley. What is a "balance control"? I usually just put the CD in and listen to it, that's all. Call me an idiot if you will (when it comes to technological stuff, I may well be one since I don't care about the fanciest of the fancy gizmos), but that's who I am.

 

[Harry]

I know there's talk/speculation here of some kind of secret re-remaster of DEFINITIVE HITS to fix errant dropouts and stuff, but throw that out the door - it ain't happening.

I picked up another copy of DEFINITIVE HITS about a year ago - found it in a sale bin and needed to get my purchase total above a threshold to qualify for a sale price - and it's all exactly the same. My copy had gotten a bit weathered from use in the car when it was new.

I'm sure that gameenjoyer's copy has the same dropouts as anyone else - this newer one certainly did.

Gameenjoyer: a balance control is the knob or control on your stereo that throws all of the sound to the left speaker or the right speaker or, in the middle, has both speakers equal in volume.

Mike refers to the fact that one channel in particular in "Tijuana Taxi" has a "manlgled-tape" sound to it in one channel, right near the end. As the song is ending, before the final honk, the percussion sound is audibly messed up.

It was probably due to that particular master tape having been used so many times over the years, and either through natural deterioration or mishandling, became damaged.

Harry

 

[TonyCurrie]

Over the years I've noticed dropout and other tape flaws on many records, usually compilations of earlier works. They were all attributable to the casual way in which master tapes were sometimes handled or stored. The best way to store masters was always to wind them so that the tail of the tape was outwards - this meant that if there was any print-thru it worked in reverse and therefore wasn't as objectionable as if the tape was wound with the start out. (For the non-technical: print-thru is an effect whereby the magnetic charge on a piece of tape is partly 'printed' on to the next layer and sometimes the one after that as well. The aural effect is to hear an 'echo' of the music before it actually happens.) Dropouts (little patches of tape where the oxide has become detached from the base and therefore where there are little opatches of silence) are almost always a result of the tape being creased or twisted following poor handling. Over fast spooling followed by over-tense braking can cause tapes to stretch or snap and that's another difficulty for the archivist. And on top of that, many brands of tape deteriorate very badly indeed with layers of oxide simply falling off, making it very difficult to play and often resulting in a loss of higher frequencies on the transfers.

Compilation albums that I have produced sometimes suffered from poor masters, and in some cases I had tracks remastered from good vinyl copies which can sometimes be surprisingly more satisfactory than using the original tape!

The very term 'master' can be a misnomer. To be very pedantic about it, the multitrack tape is the real 'master' because the stereo (or mono) mixdown is already a dub. In the real world there were very often many 'master' copies, mostly dubs of the studio master. These would be sent to pressing plants in other countries. Consequently better masters can sometimes be found in unlikely places. The only stereo masters of Laurie Johnson's 1960s London-produced albums that exist, for example, are the copies made for the New Zealand pressings.

I don't know whether Herb physically re-acquired tapes from Universal. It's more likely that the deal simply allowed him to press from tapes he already owned. Thus better quality on some of the Shout Factory reissues.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

What is a "balance control"? I usually just put the CD in and listen to it, that's all.

I keep forgetting that you're younger than most of us and probably have never seen a balance control on a stereo. My car stereo has one, but you have to dig through a menu to find it!

 

[Mike Blakesley]

print-thru

A good example of this can be found on the song "Five Minutes More," from WHAT NOW MY LOVE. The effect is perfectly timed with the song though -- it almost sounds like it's on purpose!

 

[Mr Bill]

With "balance" you have to remember there are two ways it can go, depending on the manufacturer and the complexity of the given system's circuitry...

One way the balance works is to lower or raise the volume of the two stereo channels relative to each other. This way will work as indicated above in revealing the dropouts.

The other actually shifts the audio from one channel to the other. In other words, if you turn the balance knob all the way to the right, the right speaker will be playing both the left and right channels.

There are terms for each of these which escape me now -- it was a big deal when I was in film school and did some sound mastering. I also forget which one is the cheaper and which is the more complex... The cable channel I worked at from 1995 to 2000 was strictly mono so I didn't have to deal with stereo mixes (except for on my own personal projects) and therefore have forgotten much of what I learned...

--Mr. Bill

 

[Mike Blakesley]

The other actually shifts the audio from one channel to the other. In other words, if you turn the balance knob all the way to the right, the right speaker will be playing both the left and right channels.

I never heard of that before. Maybe it's more of a "pro" thing as opposed to a "consumer audio" control.

 

[TonyCurrie]

With "balance" you have to remember there are two ways it can go, depending on the manufacturer and the complexity of the given system's circuitry...

One way the balance works is to lower or raise the volume of the two stereo channels relative to each other. This way will work as indicated above in revealing the dropouts.

The other actually shifts the audio from one channel to the other. In other words, if you turn the balance knob all the way to the right, the right speaker will be playing both the left and right channels.

There are terms for each of these which escape me now -- it was a big deal when I was in film school and did some sound mastering. I also forget which one is the cheaper and which is the more complex... The cable channel I worked at from 1995 to 2000 was strictly mono so I didn't have to deal with stereo mixes (except for on my own personal projects) and therefore have forgotten much of what I learned...

--Mr. Bill

You mean a 'pan-pot'.

 

[Mr Bill]

I never heard of that before. Maybe it's more of a "pro" thing as opposed to a "consumer audio" control.

You mean a 'pan-pot'.

After reading Tony's response to my post a lot of my pro-audio day memories flashed back into my head. So, yes, it's a more high end thing

--Mr Bill

 

[Steven J. Gross]

gameenjoyer: The easiest way to find the "dropouts" mentioned above, is: Play Tijuana Taxi with your balance control cranked all the way to the right. Listen near the end of the song and, if the problem has not been fixed, you'll hear the music cut-out a couple of times, as if the tape had been erased. (which is no doubt what really happened!)

I would put the exact locations of the dropouts here but I don't have my CD with me...maybe someone else will do that.

This may sound strange, but I think that "dropouts" can add to the character of a cut....it's part of the sound.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

You're right, that does sound strange... I can't think of any time where dropouts sound "good." Well, maybe on a Britney Spears record.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

this Jackson girl, whoever she is,

Gameenjoyer, because your posts seem sincere, I'll assume (perhaps mistakenly) that you're not kidding.

Janet Jackson is Michael Jackson's younger sister, whose first four albums (Janet Jackson, Dream Street, Control and Rhythm Nation 1814) were on A&M.

Both Control and Rhythm Nation 1814 sold 14 million copies apiece and spawned 12 Top 10 singles (What Have You Done For Me Lately, Nasty, When I Think Of You, Control, Let's Wait A While, Miss You Much, Rhythm Nation, Escapade, Alright, Come Back To Me, Black Cat and Love Will Never Do Without You).

Her sales peaked with her first post-A&M LP, Janet, which sold 20 million worldwide. Sales have been slipping since, with last year's Discipline having sold only 865,000 copies worldwide (still good enough in the new world of CD sales to hit #1 in Billboard).

For more information, Google her name and "wardrobe malfunction".

---Michael Hagerty

 

[gameenjoyer]

Michael, no, I was not kidding when I said that. As most of the people on this forum know, I'm quite young compared to a lot of you, only 26. That being said, though, I listen primarily to country music or older stuff, not current popular music, the majority of which is junk in my ever-so-humble opinion, so Jackson has evidently eluded my knowledge for that reason. Thank you for the info.

I'm curious though. If she had two albums for A & M that sold 14 million each, does that mean that the top-selling A & M album is one of hers and not a TJB album?

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Gameenjoyer:

A&M's top-selling album of all time, according to RIAA figures, is Synchronicity, by The Police.

Second is The Singles, 1969-1973, by Carpenters.

Third is Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation 1814.

Frampton Comes Alive by Peter Frampton is fourth.

Blues Traveler's Four is fifth.

Superunknown by Soundgarden is sixth.

Reckless and So Far So Good by Bryan Adams are tied for 7th.

Janet Jackson's Control is tied for 9th with Amy Grant's Heart in Motion and Every Breath You Take: The Classics by the Police.

The list, which covers the 100 best-selling albums, stops there...at five times platinum..or five million copies sold. None of the TJB or Alpert solo LPs hit that level. In fact, according to the RIAA database, the only Alpert LP to go Platinum rather than Gold, is Rise.

---Michael Hagerty