question about Definitive Hits

[Mike Blakesley]

The list, which covers the 100 best-selling albums, stops there...at five times platinum..or five million copies sold. None of the TJB or Alpert solo LPs hit that level. In fact, according to the RIAA database, the only Alpert LP to go Platinum rather than Gold, is Rise.

Some clarification about that, though: That list only covers albums that have been certified for sales by the RIAA. Record companies don't have to submit albums for certification; in fact they pay for the service.

The "platinum" certification had not even been invented during the TJB era; that didn't happen until 1976, some 8 years after the heyday of the TJB. I think an argument could be made that at least three or four of the TJB albums sold over 5 million copies...WHAT NOW MY LOVE, in particular, had orders of more than a million copies before if was even released.

RISE was simply Herb's first album after the Platinum award's inception to sell more than a million copies. If A&M had wanted to, they could have had the earlier TJB albums certified for their sales, but they never chose to do it.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

RISE was simply Herb's first album after the Platinum award's inception to sell more than a million copies. If A&M had wanted to, they could have had the earlier TJB albums certified for their sales, but they never chose to do it.

It's a shame they didn't. It would be interesting to see how the TJB albums ranked. The list, which includes dozens of LPs going back to the 50s, is at http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?resultpage=1&table=tblTop100&action=

With certification, it's possible that one or two of the TJB's biggest LPs could have made the label's all-time Top 10...but the numbers for the top four (Synchronicity, The Singles 1969-73, Rhythm Nation 1814 and Frampton Comes Alive) are so huge that they'd likely remain on top.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Herb's bio on the site that shall not be named (which says the bio was approved by Herb himself), says Herb has 14 certified Platinum albums and 15 certified Gold....which suggests to me that some if not all the TJB stuff must have been submitted and at least some of it certified Platinum.

Shout! Factory repeats the same information in its bio of Herb.

But nowhere can I find information about which albums other than Rise were certified Platinum.

The discography on Herb's own site, despite the same bio, shows only Rise as certified Platinum.

The RIAA's searchable database shows the only Platinum certification for Herb solo or with the TJB as Rise.

By the way, it appears Carpenters didn't get their Platinum certifications until after Herb & Jerry sold A&M, bolstering Mike's suggestion that Herb & Jerry didn't submit the older stuff...but then what to make of Herb's personally-approved, extensively distributed bio?

---Michael Hagerty

 

[Steve Sidoruk]

According to a note in the section (page 67) for A&M's Platinum Albums in A&M Records - The First 25 Years, "albums released prior to 1976 are in the process of being certified."

The TJB Platinum albums are as follows: Going Places, Whipped Cream & Other Delights, What Now My Love, The Lonely Bull, Volume 2, South Of The Border, S.R.O., Sounds Like, Herb Alpert's Ninth, The Beat Of The Brass, Christmas Album, Warm & Greatest Hits. Rise was certified Platinum on 2/5/80.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

According to a note in the section (page 67) for A&M's Platinum Albums in A&M Records - The First 25 Years, "albums released prior to 1976 are in the process of being certified."

The TJB Platinum albums are as follows: Going Places, Whipped Cream & Other Delights, What Now My Love, The Lonely Bull, Volume 2, South Of The Border, S.R.O., Sounds Like, Herb Alpert's Ninth, The Beat Of The Brass, Christmas Album, Warm & Greatest Hits. Rise was certified Platinum on 2/5/80.

Steve: The process should be complete by now (22 years later)...and yet RIAA still shows only Rise as certified Platinum.

And am I reading your 2nd paragraph right? Did you mean to say Platinum? I'd be stunned (but delighted) if Warm and Ninth went Platinum.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I remember reading in a few places that WARM was "the first Tijuana Brass album not to go gold." It might have attained that status later though...but I doubt it's platinum, is it?

 

[Steve Sidoruk]

A&M Records: The First 25 Years - page 64

A&M Records: The First 25 Years - page 67

Do I have to repeat myself?

 

[Michael Hagerty]

According to the RIAA database, Warm made Gold on March 26, 1970...almost 10 months after its release.

The next album, The Brass Are Comin', did not go Gold, nor did the next (non-compilation), Summertime.

Greatest Hits did go Gold, but it took more than a year, achieving certification April 12, 1971.

Solid Brass, FourSider and You Smile...The Song Begins? No Gold.

During the glory days, TJB albums were certified Gold within a month.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[Michael Hagerty]

A&M Records: The First 25 Years - page 67

Do I have to repeat myself?

Well, no...except that in the 22 years since that book was written, none of those TJB albums have been certified Platinum.

And if Warm were Platinum, I doubt it would have been treated like a stepchild all these years.

Carpenters' Close To You, also on that list, was certified Platinum, but not until April 16. 1998....eleven years after the book and 8 and a half years after Herb & Jerry sold A&M.

None of the other LPs on that list have been certified Platinum, according to the RIAA database.

So, is the book right? Were they in the process of being certified and somehow didn't get certification? Or did A&M not submit them and the people responsible for the book (A&M employees) either not know or not tell?


---Michael Hagerty

 

[Steve Sidoruk]

In terms of first hand information, I don't know. I accepted what came from their book. I would guess that the A&M Sales Department provided the figures and that they were sufficient to qualify those albums for Platinum status. The book indicates that certification was in the process. What happened since then, I don't have a clue. We can speculate that something went awry, perhaps attributable to the sale of the company, change of personnel - there was a purge of A&M staff after PolyGram took over - who knows? Some might argue that if the sales were there, does the official certification really matter? Beyond that, it's a mystery.

p.s. - I did just e-mail an A&M guy who is now at Uni to see if he knows anything about it.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Not that it matters in this particular discussion, but it's worth noting for educational purposes that in those days, record company sales figures were used to certify gold and platinum; whereas nowadays, actual sales in stores are counted via Soundscan.

 

[Steve Sidoruk]

Apparently with the transitions of A&M to PolyGram, the merger with Seagram and the acquisition by Vivendi, changes were made to the accounting department. Now, when an artist wants an audit, they have to pay for it and it takes some time.

This may well explain how it never got completed. And back to my previous statement, if each of the TJB albums met the sales requirements for Platinum certification in 1987, RIAA notwithstanding, these are essentially Platinum sellers no matter what.

 

[mikeargo]

This is fascinating information, and it makes me wonder about Herb's record (no pun intended) of album sales as compared with all other pop artists since the TJB's heyday. It's said that the Beatles still hold the record for the most number of pop music albums sold in the U.S., and there's the statement we've all seen about how the TJB, in its day, outsold every other artist except the Beatles and Frank Sinatra (or was it Elvis?) and that he's sold more than 70 million records worldwide. That's impressive, to say the least. What rank does Herb and H.A. & T.J.B. collectively hold in the roster of most number of albums sold in the U.S. since, say, 1960?

-Mike A.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Apparently with the transitions of A&M to PolyGram, the merger with Seagram and the acquisition by Vivendi, changes were made to the accounting department. Now, when an artist wants an audit, they have to pay for it and it takes some time.

This may well explain how it never got completed. And back to my previous statement, if each of the TJB albums met the sales requirements for Platinum certification in 1987, RIAA notwithstanding, these are essentially Platinum sellers no matter what.

Steve:
Thanks for checking into it. Makes sense. Still surprised that A&M believes (or believed) that Warm, Ninth and Volume 2 were Platinum-sellers.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[Michael Hagerty]

This is fascinating information, and it makes me wonder about Herb's record (no pun intended) of album sales as compared with all other pop artists since the TJB's heyday. It's said that the Beatles still hold the record for the most number of pop music albums sold in the U.S., and there's the statement we've all seen about how the TJB, in its day, outsold every other artist except the Beatles and Frank Sinatra (or was it Elvis?) and that he's sold more than 70 million records worldwide. That's impressive, to say the least. What rank does Herb and H.A. & T.J.B. collectively hold in the roster of most number of albums sold in the U.S. since, say, 1960?

-Mike A.

Hey, the RIAA has a list for that....http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?resultpage=1&table=tblTopArt&action=

But Herb and the TJB aren't on it. Apparently, the decision to cancel certification (see Steve's post above) means the RIAA isn't counting.

Using other sources, Herb solo and with the TJB claims 75 million worldwide sales...14 Platinum and 15 Gold albums, so 25-30 million US sales is probably reasonable.

If we say 30 million, Herb solo and the TJB would be 58th.

The US Top Ten, in millions:

1. BEATLES, THE 170
2. BROOKS, GARTH 128
3. PRESLEY, ELVIS 120
4. LED ZEPPELIN 111.5
5. EAGLES 100
6. JOEL, BILLY 79.5
7. PINK FLOYD 74.5
8. STREISAND, BARBRA 71
8. AC/DC 71
10.JOHN, ELTON 70

If we're right about 30 million, Herb beats Sinatra, who has certified US album sales of 27 million.

If we give Herb and the TJB 40 million domestically (possible since Carpenters, with far fewer LPs, are certified at 24.5 million), he's 36th.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Here's the list of dates that the TJB and Herb's solo albums were certified gold and/or platinum:

Artist - ALPERT, H. & THE TIJUANA BRASS
Title - GOING PLACES
Certification Date - 12/15/1965
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - GROUP
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, H. & THE TIJUANA BRASS
Title - WHIPPED CREAM & OTHER DELIGHTS
Certification Date - 12/15/1965
Label - A&M
Award
Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - GROUP
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, H. & THE TIJUANA BRASS
Title - WHAT NOW MY LOVE
Certification Date - 05/09/1966
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - GROUP
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, H. & THE TIJUANA BRASS
Title - THE LONELY BULL
Certification Date - 05/09/1966
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - GROUP
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, H. & THE TIJUANA BRASS
Title - SOUTH OF THE BORDER
Certification Date - 05/09/1966
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - GROUP
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, H. & THE TIJUANA BRASS Title
HERB ALPERT'S TIJUANA BRASS, VOLUME 2
Certification Date - 05/09/1966
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - GROUP
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, H. & THE TIJUANA BRASS
Title - S.R.O
Certification Date - 01/19/1967
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - GROUP
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, H. & THE TIJUANA BRASS
Title - SOUNDS LIKE
Certification Date - 08/25/1967
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - GROUP
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, H. & THE TIJUANA BRASS
Title - HERB ALPERT'S NINTH
Certification Date - 12/08/1967
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - GROUP
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, H. & THE TIJUANA BRASS
Title - THIS GUY'S IN LOVE WITH YOU
Certification Date - 07/19/1968
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - SINGLE
Category - GROUP
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, H. & THE TIJUANA BRASS
Title - THE BEAT OF THE BRASS
Certification Date - 07/19/1968
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - GROUP
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, H. & THE TIJUANA BRASS
Title - THE CHRISTMAS ALBUM
Certification Date - 12/16/1968
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - GROUP
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, H. & THE TIJUANA BRASS
Title - WARM
Certification Date - 03/26/1970
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - GROUP
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, H. & THE TIJUANA BRASS
Title - GREATEST HITS
Certification Date - 04/12/1971
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - GROUP
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, HERB
Title - RISE
Certification Date - 09/25/1979
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - SINGLE
Category - SOLO
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, HERB
Title - RISE
Certification Date - 02/05/1980
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - SOLO
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, HERB
Title - RISE
Certification Date - 02/05/1980
Label - A&M
Award Description - PLATINUM
Format - ALBUM
Category - SOLO
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Artist - ALPERT, HERB
Title - KEEP YOUR EYE ON ME
Certification Date - 06/17/1987
Label - A&M
Award Description - GOLD
Format - ALBUM
Category - SOLO
Type - ST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Capt. Bacardi

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Some other notes from the RIAA site:

The RIAA® Gold® and Platinum® Awards program was launched in 1958 in an effort to create a standard by which to measure sales of a sound recording.

In the beginning, there was only a Gold® album award for the sale of 500,000 copies. As the industry grew, other awards were developed. The Platinum® award (1,000,000 sold) was created in 1976 and with the advent of the compact disc and the subsequent increase in sales, the Multi-Platinum™ award was created in 1984.

On March 16, 1999, the RIAA® launched the Diamond® Awards, honoring sales of 10 million copies or more of an album or single.

And reading further on the site, the "Top Selling Artists" database only goes back to 1973, which probably explains why Herb & the TJB don't appear.



Capt. Bacardi

 

[Michael Hagerty]

And reading further on the site, the "Top Selling Artists" database only goes back to 1973, which probably explains why Herb & the TJB don't appear.



Capt. Bacardi

Captain: The Monkees appear on that database...and they didn't sell 17.5 million copies after 1973....nor did Andy Williams do 10.5 million since then.

The link to that Top selling artist list is: http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?resultpage=1&table=tblTopArt&action=

Is this what you were referring to? If so, it's a subscription service, not the info available online:

The RIAA created a new shipment subscription service offering an interactive database where users can view, compare, and export historical year-end U.S. shipment statistics, including expanded access to historical data going back to 1973. With this new subscription users can create bar and pie charts, plus export figures and data to excel, PDF, and image formats. More information on that subscription service as well as a demo is available here.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Captain: The Monkees appear on that database...and they didn't sell 17.5 million copies after 1973....nor did Andy Williams do 10.5 million since then.

Like I said above, the list is releases that were CERTIFIED by the RIAA. If an artist's record company didn't apply to have an older album certified or didn't do all the required paperwork, or whatever, it won't be on the list. The release date itself does not matter.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Don't forget that the Monkees had a major resurgence after MTV debuted, and their Greatest Hits album was on that Pop Catalog chart for a long time. Whether that equaled 17 million or not I couldn't say. I just find it interesting that the majority of artists on that list are from the 70's to present (the Beatles, Elvis and Sinatra will always sell regardless of the era). Being the eternal skeptic I am I have doubts as to the accuracy of this list. To me this falls under the "don't believe everything you read on the internet" category.



Capt. Bacardi

 

[Mike Blakesley]

Pink Floyd's THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON comes to mind. I think it's been certified multi-platinum now, but for many years it was only a "gold" album despite having sold about 20 million copies (or something like that).