RE: My Abstract Heart/Colors

[Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar]

I just bought "My Abstract Heart" and "Colors" and I have some thoughts I'd like comments on:

1. The albums seem to start strong then kinda fade away.
2. Why sooooooo much harmon mute?
3. In many ways, his trumpet playing is stronger than in the 1960's.
4. The "Look of Love" didn't have to be 6min. & 34sec. long.
5. Instead of "Slow Train", how about a "Fast Train".
6. I think these CDzz are more creative than a lot of Rick Braun stuff.
7. I don't understand his art but it does make for attractive CD covers.
8. I'd still like to hear an Alpert CD with A&M alumni.
9. Needs to do more covers.
10. Who am I to talk, the A&R company TAXI has been frying my material.

Later............Jay

 

[thetijuanataxi]

"My Abstract Heart" is one of my favorite solo Herb Alpert albums.I think it rocks all the way through. My favorite track on the album is "Romance Dance". As for "Colors", I'm kinda lukewarm about that album. I'm not big on hip- hop sounds and electronic sampling. I think Herb's at the top of his game when he does latin flavored music. Fandango, Abstract Heart, Blow Your Own Horn, Passion Dance. But "Colors" to me seems to be trying to attract the Hip Hop/Urban crowd rather than being targeted at his die-hard fans. the vocals on "The Look Of Love" don't even sound like Herb and Lani to me. Herb's playing lacks energy in comparison to "Passion Dance" And I agree with Jay that he uses way too much harmon mute on that album. As for Herb's sound now in comparison to the '60s, Yes it has evolved some. Herb is a much more open player now, much more comfortable with solos and jazz riffs. I've also noticed that in the '60's it almost seemed at times like Herb wanted his sound masked at concerts and TV performances to where it was hard to tell which trumpeter was playing what. At his solo concerts, he is up front with a mic attatched to his trumpet bell so that his playing is easily distinguished from the rest of the band. In the '60's, I think Herb was more up front at live performances from 1965-1967. From 1968-1970, I think he relied on Tonni more to carry the trumpet sound at the concerts as he was getting burnt out and his playing was starting to suffer a bit. Herb still flubs a note occasionally, but his overall performance on stage is superb. I saw him live in 1996 and 1997 and the concerts were great.

David,
NP "My Abstract Heart" by the birthday boy........

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Moved to proper forum...


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Rudy]

I just bought "My Abstract Heart" and "Colors" and I have some thoughts I'd like comments on:

1. The albums seem to start strong then kinda fade away.

Colors, unfortunately, didn't do much of anything for me. Abstract Heart, though, I've liked from end to end since I bought it. A lot of it due to Shorty Rogers' influence on it.

I agree about the mute: that's one reason I couldn't listen to a lot of later Miles Davis. I don't mind smaller doses of mute, but not throughout out an entire album.

 

[Captaindave]

1. I don't like too much mute. I want to hear the open horn. Herb shines when he is playing the open horn with an embouchure that is operating at its best and not "burned out." Remember the muted intro on "For Carlos" on the SRO album? That's about enough mute for me...

2. Herb, or anyone else, will lose me immediately when the sound moves toward hip hop/rap/electronic/synthesizer. Don't like it - never have - never will...

3. Herb is playing different things recently. Not better, IMO, just different. I think he sounds a little different but I still recognize the same Herb Alpert tone and sound. I think the change is more stylistic and in terms of WHAT he is playing, than in terms of whether he is playing any "better." I do, however, think that there is some very strong playing - perhaps some of the best I have ever heard Herb do - on the FANDANGO album...

4. In the "old days" (sixties) I think Herb was playing commercial pop for the mass American public; e.g. Spanish Flea, Tijuana Taxi, etc. More recently, he seems to have left that direction, and is playing what he wants to play on a more personal level. Although I enjoy many of his solo recordings, I do not enjoy any of them as much as any of the TJB recordings. I can appreciate his growth as an artist, etc, but I am dealing here with what I want to hear coming out of the stereo... I'll play TJB before any other albums.

5. Yes, I think Herb is more "creative" than Rick Braun, Chris Botti, etc. He is more original and unique in regard to sound and style. He is more inventive. These other artists are very good trumpet players, but not especially original or unusual or inventive. IMO, they aren't doing anything particularly original. They haven't created anything new or different as Herb has done.

Interesting thread...probably a lot more that could be said...

 

[Rudy]

5. Yes, I think Herb is more "creative" than Rick Braun, Chris Botti, etc. He is more original and unique in regard to sound and style. He is more inventive. These other artists are very good trumpet players, but not especially original or unusual or inventive. IMO, they aren't doing anything particularly original. They haven't created anything new or different as Herb has done.

MUCH more creative--these others are part of $mooth Jazz, and quite frankly, they are pandering to what the record labels, radio and the general public demands of them. The same industry that keeps them "stars" today will break them eventually. To be honest, the last two David Benoit albums have had Braun producing, and wouldn't you know it, I consider those to be the two weakest albums of Benoit's entire 20+ year career. It's all formula-laden instrumental pop cut from the same mold. The only true test of these trumpet players is to cut them loose and have them play among true jazz musicians and see if they can "cut it" musically. I think in some cases, they could cut it, free of the commercial restraints and having to play what is expected of them. (Then again, I've heard a lot of these guys noodle on endlessly trying to record a solo... )

I can't fault them for finding and filling a niche (instrumental pop) and making a living of it, something that most musicians can't do, but the public and the radio/record label marketing needs to quit this pathetic labeling of this kind of music as "jazz".

Herb Alpert is past that stage. He had his glory years in the 60's, took a break, then came back making music the way he wanted to. He lucked out with hits like "Rise" and "Diamonds", but musically, all that time, he's followed whatever path looked the most challenging or interesting. The easy way out would have been to make TJB recordings for 42 years. When in essence, the original TJB formula didn't last much longer than the Beatles.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Remember the muted intro on "For Carlos" on the SRO album? That's about enough mute for me...

Actually, the first time through on "For Carlos" is Bob Edmondson on trombone. The rest of the time it's Herb with a mute/hat.

I think Herb's playing is a lot different than it was in the 60's. There's a lot of Miles & Chet Baker influences in his later recordings than during the TJB days - and I'm not referring to the mute work. Lot of chromatic stuff, some occasional "out" stuff. But he has a distinctive sound regardless of what he plays. I think he is playing better - Colors aside - than he has before. There's a lot more confidence in his sound, especially on the Second Wind album.

I know we've covered this before, but Herb is a classic example of an artist who has matured and gotten a lot more creative as the years have gone by. I'm sure a lot of that had to do with him owning his own label and therefore he could be his own boss. Had he been with another label, say CBS, they would've had him doing "Tijuana Taxi" sideways, and that wouldn't have been good. He wouldn't have ever been considered a serious artist IMHO. I seriously doubt I could have remained a big fan had he just did the TJB over and over. That goes for a lot of artists. I like musicians who keep taking me to a higher level instead of just playing what they've already done a thousand times. Look at what happened to Chuck Mangione after he got popular. He just stayed on that same plane after "Feels So Good". I keep finding myself going back to his Mercury recordings and his first couple of A&M efforts because those albums were far more creative.

As for Rick Braun and Chris Botti - I can fart more creatively than they can play. A disturbing thought, but true nonetheless. :goofygrin:


Capt. Bacardi

 

[david]

Even though I am not a fan of the "Colors" CD I still think "Love at First Glance" had a chance to be a hit. That heavy bass and muted trumpet are haunting. I think there was a chance for it to be popular in some of todays "Hip-Hop" crowd. But I agree with opinions expressed that there is just way too much mute on that CD. (Kinda like that old Saturday nNght Lve episode of "Gotta have more Cowbell!!")
One area to promote Herbs music is with choreogaphy. My daughter teaches dance and I am trying to talk her into arranging something on stage with "Love at First Glance." When done with a good choreographer, a tune like that just shines - and I would love to hear people say "Where is that tune from?"

David

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Even though I am not a fan of the "Colors" CD I still think "Love at First Glance" had a chance to be a hit. That heavy bass and muted trumpet are haunting.

I grudgingly have to agree. It is an eerie melody. The part I like the most is near the end when Herb's open trumpet makes a brief statement. The rhythm section sounds a lot like Miles Davis's Doo-Bop album.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[david]

In response to an above post with Tonni covering for Herb towards the end of the TJB era: I wonder if having other members of the band "Carry" for Herb, particualry Tonni on trumpet, may have contributed to what I have heard was growing dissension in the band itself. I would think that if a band leader is having "burn out" it would have a dominoe effect on the other members too.
It is strange that there is no information with regard to Tonni Kalash after the breakup of the TJB, which at times has made me wonder if the "parting of the ways" was less than amicable.

 

[Captaindave]

I believe that it would be simply speculation to comment on the content of the above post...

However, I would offer these thoughts which aren't really answers, but merely comments on the comments, so to speak...

1. My opinion would be that the sidemen who made up the TJB touring band were professionals who could/would do the job without letting their personal feelings enter into the situation. That kind of professionalism is usually the case with most professional studio/session players. They will do the job to the best of their ability and perform with professionalism regardless of what else might be happening at the same time. That's why they are doing the job - because of their ability plus professionalism.

I do, however, understand the notion that if there is an general sense of frustration and that demise is imminent, that motivation may be lacking.

2. From experience I can tell you that eventually, just about all bands or groups eventually get on each other's nerves, and eventually disband. Even when the best of circumstances exists and the members are compatible and amicable, there is usually an eventual disintegration of the group. It just seems to be a matter of time. Sometimes it is about musical or artistic issues and direction. Other times, it has to do with personalities. And, the level of commercial success doesn't seem to matter.

I am sure that someone could give an example of an exception to this situation, but I believe any examples like that are, in fact, the exception and not the rule.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

It seems that just about every band breaks up eventually...remember the line from THAT THING YOU DO about bands? Del Paxton tells the kid about all the reasons bands don't stay together...the road, women, time, etc...his advice was to keep playing and watch your money.

As far as Tonni Kalash is concerned, he isn't the only "mystery man" in the TJB...Lou Pagani also seems to have vanished without a trace. Maybe it was time to settle down and relax...the demands on all these men were tremendous; being away from families, always having to be in the spotlight, eating lousy food late at night...that would get old after awhile.


Dan

 

[Steven J. Gross]

I just bought "My Abstract Heart" and "Colors" and I have some thoughts I'd like comments on:

Jay

I think that these are two of Herb's few failures.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

I just bought "My Abstract Heart" and "Colors" and I have some thoughts I'd like comments on:

Jay

I think that these are two of Herb's few failures.

I don't think MAH was a failure...on the contrary...I find it to be Herb's most satisfying solo jazz album, at least on A&M...Shorty Rogers certainly adds a lot of flavor to the mix...and it's almost like going back to his "Giants" days on the cuts he was involved with.

MAH might be a little different than a lot of the other albums in Herb's canon, and I don't understand the cover art, but I love it, anyway...

I wish that Herb and Shorty could have done more albums together...and any album with Shorty's involvement is a gem!


Dan

 

[alpertfan]

With regards to the comments about Tonni Kalash and Lou Pagani...

I am also surprised that there is not a whole lot of information on these two gentlemen after their tenure with the TJB. We hear Herb Alpert's own perspective on those years in the interviews on this website; The now closed Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass Fan Club Web Site had a fantastic interview with Pat Senatore, who shared his memories, and John Pisano talks a little about his own memories on The Flying Pisanos' Site.

Are there any photos taken of Kalash and Pagani before their deaths, by the way

 

[Harry]

The now closed Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass Fan Club Web Site had a fantastic interview with Pat Senatore, who shared his memories,

Last time I looked, Wendell's site was still active. I don't know if all of the links work, but the main page is here:

http://members.aol.com/lanesong/HERBALPE.HTM

Harry

 

[Captain Bacardi]

In response to an above post with Tonni covering for Herb towards the end of the TJB era: I wonder if having other members of the band "Carry" for Herb, particualry Tonni on trumpet, may have contributed to what I have heard was growing dissension in the band itself. I would think that if a band leader is having "burn out" it would have a dominoe effect on the other members too.

Let's not forget that this was Herb's band, so it didn't really matter what the others thought. They were replaceable. But there is an interview of Herb where he said that the last couple of months of gigs for the TJB were already scheduled and he was committed to doing those gigs. Bob Edmondson also helped "carry" the horn work during those days. If you have that '69 concert you can hear how Bob plays a lot of melody along with Herb.

As far as the dissension goes, I don't think it's all that big a deal. These guys were together for 4 or 5 years playing constantly. That can get real old real quick - for any musician.


Capt. Bacardi
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