What's the state of jazz in America?

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jazzdre

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Bear with me folks; this might be a looong one! I just came back from youtube where iI listened to an old track that I haven't heard by contemporary jazz keyboardist Alex Bugnon which was "This Time Around". I always read what the posters have to say, and a lot of them say that while they love the tune, they can't listen to it anymore, because the "smooth jazz" radio stations have died away in their individual states across America! I've been coming to this forum for many years now, and a lot of you all call "smooth jazz",$mooth jazz", when in fact, nothing could be further from the truth!

Smooth jazz, contemporary jazz, whatever you want to call it was never really a big moneymaker, a lot of these type of musicians were on small, independent labels, but when a little bit more of the public started listening to this type of music, the big label/conglomerates bought out not only the musicians' contracts, but the label itself! A good example: GRP, and Blue Thumb;which were independent labels were both bought out by Universal Music Group as well as Verve, and (you got it) A&M, as well as others. The smooth jazz radio stations suffered as well, most of them were bought out by Clear Channel, and their playlist reflected what was demanded by the corporations, rather than what the public really wanted which was good,creative music. these stations were playing Michael and Janet Jackson, and Billy Joel, and The Temptations for God's sakes!

We had a smooth jazz radio station here in NY called CD101.9, and when they first started out, they were very good, but in later years, there was this increasing slide towards commercialism, that was heartbreaking. The aforementioned artists were played as well as other pop and R&B oriented artists, instead of good creative, contemporary jazz musicians/singers. We also have another station here in NY called 106.7 Lite FM, which plays light rock and pop/R&B music, but also is the no.1 station here in NY. The artists that I mentioned above are played on this station as well, so when the so called smooth jazz station started playing these acts, in the public's mind, it was like, why should I listen to the jazz station with all this weird music, when I could be listening to Lite FM? So that's what they did, and the ratings for CD 101.9 started to slip(no surprise there!)

CD 101.9 tried another format which was the "chill" music venue, meaning jazz mixed with electronic/ambient sounds which was the rage in Europe in the mid 2000s, but never really caught on here in the States.However,it was heavily promoted by trumpeter Chris Botti, who himself had a show on the station, playing the latest cuts from these cutting edge musicians, mostly from Europe. Eventually, the station went back to the smooth jazz formula, because chill music left people feeling pretty cold. Then in 2008, one evening coming home from work, I found out that CD 101.9 was no more. It became a rock station, and then, with eventual research, I found out that smooth jazz stations all over the country were dying out. I then started to get worried: if the "smoothies" are dying out, what about the rest of jazz?

Whether we like it or not, smooth jazz is what the public liked at one point, and brought them into the folds of jazz.So called "smooth jazz"opens the doors to the public liking and appreciating other, more creative forms of jazz, and the older artists as well. In my case, which I've said many times before here on this forum, it was Herb Alpert's "Magic Man" that got me into jazz.I told Herb that myself when I met him in 2005, and he seemed please that his music inspired someone to check out jazz in all of its formats. Now, these days, I don't know how "Magic Man" would be characterized these days;"smooth jazz","contemporary jazz";whatever. All I know is that it was jazz that was played with a more contemporary sound than I was stereotypically accustomed to what I was hearing with what I considered "jazz". Later, it was Pat Metheny's "Are You Going With Me?" that sealed the deal on me loving jazz, then I listened to Grover Washington, David Sanborn,Angela Bofill,Lee Ritenour,Dave Grusin,McCoy Tyner, Joe Sample,Al Jarreau,Earl Klugh,Bob James,etc. At this time period, I was in my teens, and this was the early 80s. the only one whose music that I never really warmed up to was well...Kenny G. And this was BEFORE he became the hitmaker he eventually turned out to be in the late 80s/early 90s! But even his music has some merits: my friend Rick was a Kenny G fan when he first started out listening to jazz, but as he got more into jazz, he discarded Gorelick, and moved on to more "serious" jazz music. But for him,Kenny G was the spark. See what I mean?

As I have grown up and seen things more clearly, I have to come to the conclusion that even though jazz was born here in America, America doesn't really like jazz.I'd actually go as far as to say that the majority of America hates jazz! Why? Because it's too sophisticated and complex for American ears, with a country like ours that's always on the go, and fast moving and fast forward as our society is, we simply don't have the time to listen to music that's examporaneous and extrapolated and detailed as jazz is, whereas in Europe and Japan, where life is a bit more slower paced than ours, they have the time to listen to jazz, and that's why it's more appreciated overseas, rather than our own shores. And I know that this might make the Captain grrr a bit, but even the Najees, the Boney James', the Dave Kozes, the George Howards, and yes even the Kenny Gs nowadays are considered a bit too sophisticated and complex for today's musical audience which would rather hear Rihanna, Beyonce,Lil Wayne,Lady Gaga, Coldplay, a lot of today's rap/crap music, as well as boring easy listening pop/rock music and boring easy listening country music.

The JVC Jazz festivals here in NY which a decade or more ago sparked a fire(okay, it was really probably a bonfire at best!) now sparks nothing but a firecracker. Meaning the media doesn't cover the festival like it used to, and the people don't come out in droves to support thefestival like we should(However, I would hope that the Montreal Jazz Festival is still going strong like it should!) In conclusion, what I am saying is that when the interest in smooth jazz, contemporary jazz,WHATEVER is lost, people will also lose interest in jazz itself, and jazz will be as Miles Davis said in the 70s the music of the museum,which I don't want to see happen.

What's the opinion of you all regarding this matter? I'd like to know!
 
With little to offer in terms of the Pop song, before it gets "jazzed up", as was the case in contemporary jazz with its old roster of artists such as Wes Montgomery, Gabor Szabo, JJ Johnson & Kai Winding, Herbie Mann and many others, there's little to offer in terms in any NEW stuff that's out, getting "jazzed up"...

To sum up my point: Do we want to hear "jazzed-up" versions of songs by Rihanna, Beyonce,Lil Wayne,Lady Gaga, Coldplay, a lot of today's rap/crap music, as well as boring easy listening pop/rock music and boring easy listening/country music???? (Or to put it in better terms, "Are we READY for it????)

-- Dave
 
I have to put it in context when I listen to music: what GRP/MCA Jazz and other labels put out in the 80s I call "contemporary jazz." What Pat Metheny records is "contemporary jazz" or...well...most of the time. (Song X would raise a few eyebrows, and there is no categorizing Zero Tolerance for Silence :laugh: ). I don't have the largest collection of GRP, but I do have almost complete collections of several artists. Some of the GRP artists splintered out to other labels when Universal destroyed GRP/MCA Jazz, and they all still put out some quality music.

The incessant noodling against synthesizer tracks and drum machines is what I call $mooth Jazz--it is all just so formulaic, no personality, one recording passing for another. All this is, is modern-day yuppie Muzak, mindless music to fill a void. It's today's equivalent of what we used to call "old fogie music" when we were kids. One office I worked in a few years ago had a $mooth Jazz station on 12 hours a day, and I was ready to chuck the radio out the window. And the yuppies were eating it up--it had "jazz" in the label, so it was "culture" to them. I liken much of that formulaic music to what passes for Top 40 hits today, although on Top 40, you no longer need singing talent: Autotune can turn anyone into a singer, and all of the music has the same synth/drum machine fabrication behind it.

Sad thing is, hit some of these listeners with an Ornette Coleman record, and...well, you know where I'm going with this. :D Heck, even a good Pat Metheny Group album is beyond what the programmers are targeting when they market this stuff. And despite what these artists think about being mis-labeled, you will hear the occasional David Benoit track nudged in between the rest of the pablum. Between this music and Top 40, I'm surprised today's younger generation even knows what a real acoustic instrument sounds like.

What bothers a lot of us in jazz (as listeners and players) is how the marketing label "Smooth Jazz" meant stations could thrown in Luther or that horrid screeching of Mariah Carey. Don't get me wrong--Luther Vandross was a major figure on R&B/dance stations of the day, and you'll have to pry his records out of my cold, dead hands. But, I do not like hearing this on a so-called "jazz" station. Ever. Some R&B artists reached across the void (like Kool & The Gang, whose "Summer Madness" was a regular on WJZZ back in the 70s and early 80s), but even these genre-bending tracks are ones you'd never hear on the $mooth Jazz radio today.

And that's my point: I don't knock the music (everyone is free to listen to what they like), but I do knock these programmers and marketers telling the world this is "jazz." That is what actually upsets a lot of today's contemporary jazz musicians (a few of which I know personally, having worked with a few of them for several years now). In their opinion (and somewhat in mine), the mislabeling of music is doing more harm to the world of jazz than good. They are the ones who make a living playing jazz, and see their album sales dip with each release, or can't catch a break since they don't play by the same formulaic rules.

Flame-proof suit on...
 
When I saw the title of this thread about the "state of jazz", I thought it was an easy answer. Jazz is thriving as an art form (which it should be) and there are plenty of talented young musicians and groups playing jazz. But then I read the rest of the diatribe and trying to piece together what was said, since it's pretty much all over the place.

First things first - America does NOT "hate jazz". That's just silly and rather ignorant. It may not be their #1 choice but that doesn't mean they hate it. But jazzdre does hit upon a crucial point. Jazz requires one to actually "listen", and that probably turns off a lot of Americans, who clearly have become impatient and uptight as a society (in general). How many people actually put on an album/CD and thoroughly listen - without interruption? Probably not many anymore. That may very well explain why jazz is far more popular in Europe and Japan since people in these places know how to relax and enjoy life. Look at many European countries and see how many of the cultures take a couple of hours just to enjoy a meal, whereas in the States many people hit a fast food place or nuke something in a microwave just to be done. I think the same concept applies in listening to music. It's more convenient to play something with a generic beat-of-the-week that can be played and heard in the background. But with jazz, you not only need to listen to what the soloist is doing, but also how the rhythm section interacts with the soloist and how it can all work together in a beautiful way. But you have to take the time to really listen, and most people don't want to take the time to do that. You can't multitask that way, I guess. Europeans appreciate the virtuosity of American jazz players because they take the time to listen, which is probably why jazz is more popular in Europe than here in the States.

As to smooth jazz radio stations going away, nothing pleases me more hearing this. Smooth jazz is nothing more than a marketing gimmick, no doubt created by some pimple-faced putz living in a Wall Street world. The music played on these stations have little, if anything, related to jazz. Most of it is pop instrumentals, which I have no problem with on its own. If people enjoy pop instrumentals and if musicians enjoy recording pop instrumentals, then so be it. Just don't call it jazz. In Austin there were two attempts at smooth jazz stations, and both failed miserably, and rightly so. It's not that all of the music was bad on it - they would play Alpert's "Rise", as well as songs by Steely Dan - but those aren't jazz tunes. Of course they also played the crap by Kenny G, but I won't go into that. You already know my feelings on this.

I also want to dismiss this "gateway to jazz" theory. If I read jazzdre's initial assertion correctly, he seems to imply that people who listened to smooth jazz found a magical path to real jazz. It's a nice theory, and maybe one or two people did that, but it's simply not realistic and there's no proof whatsoever that many people did that. It's kind of like the drug war arguments, such as how smoking pot will lead to heroin use. Or maybe someone who drinks MD 20/20 will learn what a fine Cabernet is like. Not likely to happen, no matter what kind of spin you put on it. Do people who listen to Kenny G or Boney James go out and listen to real sax players like Sonny Rollins, Coltrane, Mulligan or Bird? Probably not. If they were we would probably have several incidents where people started committing hari-kari suicides for wasting their time on the smooth crap. :D Jazzdre mentions that listening to Herb got him into listening to jazz, so I ask you jazzdre, are you listening to early Miles or Freddie Hubbard? Maybe some of Dizzy's great period? Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives & Sevens? Clifford Brown or Fats Navarro? If you enjoyed Alex Bugnon has it inspired you to listen to Bill Evans, Bud Powell or Art Tatum? If you are doing these things then you may have an argument for this little "gateway" theory.

I agree that it's pathetic that Americans don't appreciate this true art form as a whole. Yet anytime I go to a jazz club or see a jazz concert, the place is always packed. Granted, the size of the audience isn't that of a rock concert. But then again that's "pop" (popular) music for you. Outside of the big band years in the 30's and 40's jazz was not much of a seller. But that doesn't mean it's bad music, just as something that sells a zillion copies isn't necessarily good music.
 
When I saw the title of this thread about the "state of jazz", I thought it was an easy answer. Jazz is thriving as an art form (which it should be) and there are plenty of talented young musicians and groups playing jazz.

This part of your reply actually has me rewinding back to the mid 90s when I was active on CompuServe's Music/Arts forum. One of our discussions there revolved around this same topic. What actually transpired during one such discussion was that although it appeared jazz was not thriving (due to the loss of radio stations, concerts and festivals, funding for the arts, etc.), it has move more underground and out of the public radar. The major labels have dropped many ongoing jazz artists (except wildly successful sellers like Pat Metheny, etc.), and those have all gravitated to independent labels now. (Our local label Mack Avenue Records is actually doing quite well with the artist they have signed, and more power to 'em!)

First things first - America does NOT "hate jazz". That's just silly and rather ignorant. It may not be their #1 choice but that doesn't mean they hate it.

I hang out in various places, and there are actually some who come right out and say they "hate" jazz. Heck, even musical neophytes among family and friends have given me "The dirty look" that goes along with the mention of "the evil 'J' word". :sigh: Many more are just indifferent. But that's OK--let them leave us alone to what we like, and we won't be dissin' their Michael Bolton rekkids. :D

But jazzdre does hit upon a crucial point. Jazz requires one to actually "listen", and that probably turns off a lot of Americans, who clearly have become impatient and uptight as a society (in general). How many people actually put on an album/CD and thoroughly listen - without interruption? Probably not many anymore.

My concentration isn't what it used to be anymore. If I really want to hear an album, I have to repeat it a few times. My grey matter is not what it used to be I guess.

As to smooth jazz radio stations going away, nothing pleases me more hearing this. Smooth jazz is nothing more than a marketing gimmick,

We lost one station here, WVMV, which went to HD Radio, which basically was the kiss of death. Another station just started up here though. I don't know what is up with that, but it is on an "off" frequency, so it is from out of town. It is just a format/marketing term, basically. Clear Channel loves stuff like that. I am even going on a limb and will say that back when someone first programmed a station like this, it probably had a lot better selection of music. The hats at Clear Channel and other "consultants" usually take something good, whittle it down to what 90% of their listeners like to hear, and prepackage it so it can sell ad space. And it's every format these large conglomerates do this to, not just smooth jazz.

XM Radio used to be SO good. That variety you like? They had it. Contemporary jazz was a separate channel from big band, "classic" and "smooth" varieties of jazz. They even once had a Latin jazz channel, Luna. Too bad Sirius totally destroyed XM. They ruined every station I listened to, so I dropped it.

I also want to dismiss this "gateway to jazz" theory.

Now this one, I know does work. My one friend I used to work with was the one who listened to a lot of rock, knew oldies like an encyclopedia, and introduced me to Adam Ant and Ozzy. He sort of latched onto the Smooth Jazz station locally, but ended up going to a couple of festivals they sponsored. (Which was ironic, since they rarely played the artists they sponsored at the festivals!) Several months later, he asks me if I have a copy of Coltrane's My Favorite Things. :wtf: Since then, I've lent a few of my jazz CDs out, and he is big into the earlier Jean-Luc Ponty (we saw JLP twice in recent years).

So it does happen. Not often, but it happens. For 90-95% of the listeners out there, no. But at this point, I feel that any remaining "stragglers" out there who might decide to move on and listen to more adventurous music just helps all of us eventually. These artists cannot survive without our sales or without us attending their concerts.
 
The "state" of Jazz.

--Mr B
PS: New York and California would be tied for 3 & 4 behind Ill and La... :laugh:
 
So it does happen. Not often, but it happens. For 90-95% of the listeners out there, no.

That's my whole point, that maybe a few listeners would want to hear the real stuff, although I think you're very optimistic on the 90-95% wouldn't. I would think it's more 96-98%. But what's a few percentage points? :cool:
 
True...I'm not the most scientific thing walking the planet. :D
 
Hey people, I'm back! I knew this would start some discussion, but it looks like I lit a spark and started something of a fire! I've read the comments and as a true jazz fan, I'm glad that we are having this talk. I really and truly love jazz, and I think it is one of our country's greatest treasures. From I believe 1900 to 2011, there have been all sorts of developments in this music's history, from ragtime,swing,dixieland, big-band,be-bop,modern jazz,cool jazz, free jazz, orchestrated jazz, jazz-rock, jazz fusion,contemporary jazz, and also smooth jazz. In each of these forms of jazz, there were different artists that were trying to say something new; a new linen on an old coat , so to speak; these artists were trying to be innovative with what they had; what they were working with. Whatever mad ,new experiment they created, they wanted the public to respond to what they were doing. Sometimes the public got it, sometimes they didn't. But from what I've read about the history of jazz, most of the musicians basically played to please themselves. The attitude was: if I like what I've created, maybe others will too.

During the pre and postwar eras of America, Americans did respond to jazz, and great musicians were created as a result of it:Buddy Bolden, Louis Armstrong, Chick Webb,Bix Beiderbecke, Duke Ellington,Harry James, Count Basie, Lionel Hampton,Coleman Hawkins, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday; I could go on, but you know what I mean. Around 1945-46, after World War 2, for some reason, there was a great, creative burst of energy in jazz that it led to Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillepsie creating a harder, more faster form of jazz that was more improvisational than the slick, pop oriented big-band jazz they were playing when they were in Billy Ecksine's big band.(More greats came out of Eckstine's ensemble: the great "Sassy" herself,Sarah Vaughan, and also, I believe Dexter Gordon as well, and also Mr.Cool himself, Miles Davis) From be-bop evolved Stan Getz, Gerry Mulligan, Thelonius Monk,Milt Jackson,Bud Powell,Dexter Gordon, and yes, Miles Davis. Miles, tired of playing 100 notes per minute that was required of him in be-bop, decided to play in a more slower, relaxed style that brought him mass popularity and adulation from not only jazz critics and fans, but from the public at large as well, and it made him a bestselling artist on whatever label he was on; particularly Columbia Records where he produced his most innovative, cutting edge music in alliance with Gil Evans or Teo Macero. His style of playing was called "cool" jazz or "cool school" jazz, and it influenced musicans such as Chet Baker, Gerry Mulligan, Shorty Rogers, who were situated on the West Coast, and hence, it became known as "West Coast " jazz.Although lambasted by both jazz fans and critics as being "soft" and "not real" jazz, it sold very well, and made profits for the record labels this music was recorded on.

The first inkling that jazz was in trouble was in the 1950s, when this weird, new fangled music, which was a combination of blues music, black up-tempo, rhythmic music, and a slight bit of jazz came to the attention of young people, black and white, which was called "rhythm and blues", then later called "rock 'n' roll" which produced Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Fats Domino, Bill Haley, and a former truck driver from Memphis, a kid named Elvis Presley. From then on, rock 'n' roll (or rock music if you prefer) dominated the national consciousness as no music ever had. Then when came the 60s, and those four young men from Liverpool, England called The Beatles came on the international music scene, that was really all she wrote.(However, this is not entirely true: probably one of the last big hits jazz ever had was Pops Armstrong's version of "Hello,Dolly" which went to No.1 on the charts, knocking The Beatles off the charts in 1964!)Then jazz really was in trouble.

However, all was not lost. Stan Getz, along with a young jazz producer by the name of Creed Taylor was enamored of the music of Brazil, particularly the soundtrack of the music from the classic movie Black Orpheus, and went on to produce albums in collaborations with Brazilian musicians, which became major best sellers, particularly Getz's collaboration with Joao Gilberto, and Black Orpheus' co-composer Antonio Carlos Jobim, which resulted in the classic album GETZ/GILBERTO, which spawned the hit, "The Girl From Ipanema" another boon for jazz, which was not only a hit on the jazz charts, but pop charts as well. And this was during the British Invasion!Also, around this time, Taylor signed a guitarist from Indiana who was known to jazz audiences, but unknown to pop music loving audiences to Verve Records. His name was Wes Montgomery, and in his playing, Taylor had found a sound that could appeal to the masses who normally thought jazz to be a dirty, four letter word. Creed had Wes play the pop-rock hits of the day in a jazz setting, and not surprisingly, Taylor's formula worked, even resulting in a Grammy win for Wes, his version of "Goin' Out Of My Head", a song Wes initially hated when it was presented to him by Taylor.("You must be goin' outta yours!" Wes replied when Creed played it for Wes to record.) We all know what happened next: Creed was given his own label by Herb and Jerry under the A&M umbrella, and Wes had his biggest hit yet with A Day In The Life,and also his other subsequent albums until his untimely death in 1968.

Like him or not,Creed Taylor really was the one during the 1960s/early 70s rock era, who kept jazzout there to the masses with his "jazz-fusion" formula.Artists such as Deodato, Hubert Laws, Freddie Hubbard, and Wes' protege, George Benson enjoyed a jump in their record sales such as they never had before when they were produced by Taylor.

Right now, folks, I'm going to leave for now, but consider this "Part One" of this little(!) essay on my take on the state of jazz for now, and I'll be back with Part 2 soon...
Take care, all!
jazzdre
 
Too bad he's across the country or I'd do it personally.

:laugh: There's a lot of space between you there in the state of Confusion and me in the state of Euphoria* :laugh:

--Mr Bill
*a little "Gato" refence there, just to keep somewhat on topic!
 
Actually, we're the Unemployment State, or the Homeless State, depending on which end of the 99 weeks you're at...
 
hello people! I had a whole reply to what I started in this forum, but for some reason, the whole thing got DELETED! Sugar,honey ice tea!!! I'll be back tomorrow to type in what i had originally written!
 
Yow, are we allowed to do Politics (in For Animals Only) again??????!!!!!! :idea:

-- Dave :unhunh:
 
Hello, here again! Hopefully, I won't be deleted, 'cause I've got a good reply to all that's been said earlier. Two nights ago, I admit I got a little(!) long winded, but hopefully, I won't be as bad tonight.I gave that little history on jazz to show that(a)I know a thing or two about the history of the music and (B) that the eras that I talked about were when jazz was selling well to the public at large. Jazz started to take a hit in sales around the late 60s/early 70s when rock became a dominant force in the culture, as well as soul/r&b gaining momentum. Easy listening pop was always the rage, but it too, took a hit in sales due to rock's overwhelming influence. Jazz musicians and ensembles either broke up or didn't record for awhile, or decided to jump on rock's bandwagon. The most reknowned example of the latter was Miles Davis, who after listening to Jimi Hendrix,James Brown, and the music of Motown, decided to create his own version of rock, and the results came out in his recording of his classic, BITCHES BREW. This type of jazz was called "jazz rock" or "jazz fusion". Soon after, other ensembles of this type followed like Return To Forever, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Chick Corea, Miles' own protege, Herbie Hancock, Weather Report, as well as others.

While much maligned in its day, now critics are starting to find some golden nuggetts in this form of jazz. Jazz fusion did combine jazz with rock, funk, soul, but only the best of rock, funk and soul. Jazz fusion also insisted on improvisation, which its musicians did with vigor, and due to this type of music, sales started to pick up in jazz, until little by little, the record labels started to insist that these same musicians dim the flames of improvisation, don't make the music 'hard' anymore, make it appeal more easy on the ears; more 'pop' friendly. It was around the mid 70s that jazz fusion evolved into "contemporary jazz"; a little less on improvisation, more orchestral backing, more vocals in the background as well, more contemporary instruments like electric guitars, electric basses, fender rhodes electric pianos, and these new sets of keyboards called synthesizers. Also, the musicians were also told to enter the forays of the music that was popular at the time(easy listening pop,disco).Although I like Earl Klugh, his music is a prime example of what I'm talking about here. Little by little, the music became more and more bland and repetitious(also, ensembles like Spyro Gyra are another example of what I'm discussing here)until it evolved(or DEVOLVED take your pick) into what we now know as SMOOTH JAZZ.

While a lot of people can't tell "contemporary" jazz apart from "smooth" jazz, at least in contemporary jazz, artists such as Grover, David Sanborn, Joe Sample,Pat Metheny, George Benson, The Brecker Brothers, and yes even Herb Alpert plyed with the fire and intensity of the great masters of jazz, and that's the jazz scene that I came into in the early 80s, whereas now, the "smoothies" such as Rick Braun, Boney James, Dave Koz, Paul Taylor, Marion Meadows, and yes Kenny G play with all the intensity of....Peter Nero? Or of Al Caiola? Or of Richard Clayderman? Or of even(ulp) Yanni? Yet, this is what catches(or caught) the ears(and pocketbooks) of the American public. This is the point that I was trying to make: yes this form of jazz does sell, but is it a big moneymaker like say Mike or Janet Jackson,Madonna, Coldplay, Kanye West, Lady Gaga, Beyonce, or even her husband Jay-Z? NO WAY!! Whereas these artist that I just mentioned sell in the millions, or even multi-millions, smooth jazz sells in the thousands, and I'm betting low thousands. However, that is a good number for jazz. Even country and gospel/contemporary Christian artists outsell these guys, so as you can see, it really is not a big moneymaker.But for the world of jazz, the smooth artists are considered big sellers, and that's why there is so much controversy surrounding this music.

One more thing: in all respect to the Captain, he asked if listenng to the Herbs, Pats, Grovers,Sanborns, Samples lead me into listening to other, more meatier forms of jazz, I will respond with a resounding..YES!! While I was getting more and more into the world of jazz as i knew it, I'd read interviews with these cats, and they would always acknowledge the greats that came before them. Also, other jazz fans were advising me(sometimes to the point of grating) to check out these old masters. I did, and I'm proud to say that in addition to having RISE,BREEZIN', WINELIGHT, among others, I also have KIND OF BLUE, GIANT STEPS, MILES AHEAD, SARAH VAUGHAN AND CLIFFORD BROWN, also cds by Dizzy, Charlie Parker,Ella, Coleman Hawkins, Freddie Hubbard, etc. So you see, contemporary jazz or smooth jaz does inded open doors to more advanced forms of the music. I have read testimonies on other jazz oriented websites, where people have said listening to, yeah Kenny G got them started on older artists, and now they can't even stand to listen to Gorelick anymore!(I already told you about my friend Rick's experiences!) So yes Captain, this music does open doors;"gateway" if you will to other forms of jazz.

Anyway, I leave you all for now. As we say here in Brooklyn: Peace Out!
jazzdre
 
Yow, are we allowed to do Politics (in For Animals Only) again??????!!!!!! :idea:

-- Dave :unhunh:

Yeah, I guess the first paragraph was okay, but I was on a roll and couldn't stop... Went a little overboard on the second paragraph. :D Apologies all around and thanks to the good Captain for reeling me in (though you can still read it -- it's merely hidden apparently). Bottom line though is I have to change my address with Amazon to that of one of my corner buddy's who does NOT live in California -- no more Amazon affiliate program for Californians...
 
I haven't chimed in on the Corner for quite some time... mainly because, quite frankly, I just haven't had much to say. This thread was no different, and everything I was thinking all along has been said already. Except for one catalyst: It all started going downhill in 1994, when Broadcast Architecture started turning every jazz artist into an elevator musician. Yet another example of corporate stupidity run amok. If this is what jazzdre was referring to, then I apologize for the unnecessary re-iteration.
But the way I see it, [sadly] nobody seems to remember the up-tempo, melodic, yet creative sounds of the contemporary jazz of the 1980s. And even if they do, they disparage it because of the mistaken identity with the current 'smooth jazz' culture. The early GRP roster of the mid-late '80s was and is NOT what you hear on the Weather Channel.
 
The early GRP roster of the mid-late '80s was and is NOT what you hear on the Weather Channel.

Exactly. :agree: GRP actually did get a lot worse once they were overtaken completely by Universal. That was the day all of the old classic albums were put into the cutout bins, most classic GRP artists were unceremoniously dropped (or left the label after their next album), and GRP started aligning more with the $mooth Jazz money machine. GRP never went after that bland "kenny g" noodling for the most part, except in later years.

Interesting, too: if you hear some former GRP artists on other labels, they still retain some of that original 80s GRP sound.
 
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