What if "(They Long to Be) Close to You" Doesn't Hit?

[JohnFB]

Unless you have me blocked I made this exact same point earlier in this thread - there was no way CTY AND WOJB would have bombed, that's literally inconceivable. And as @kprather also repeated, it would almost certainly have caused CTY to get another look (and bump in sales and playlist time on radio).

Whining 'cause my post wasn't read - KIDDING

Saw & read your post - agree fully - wanted to get the thread back on track & see what some new people here thought about the original question...

 

[Harry]

wanted to get the thread back on track & see what some new people here thought about the original question...

A good idea. Thank you.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I was thinking, if the truly unexpected happened and both CTY and WOJB had bombed, then A&M might have given the album one last shot by releasing "Help" as a single. They'd already had minor chart action with "Ticket to Ride," and they had planned to use "Help" as a single anyway until CTY came along -- so it would have been a natural choice to use another Beatles tune.

Just think if "Help" had been "the" big hit from the album. Their career and sound might have gone in extremely different directions!

 

[kprather]

I'd like to think so, but even Herb Alpert has admitted that their music wasn't something he had a particularly strong affinity for.

Huhwha? When did he say that?

 

[Portlander]

It has been discussed here previously and I not sure what thread it was in. But Herb on a few occasions has mentioned that the Carpenters music was not really his style or preference in interviews. It was almost like he was too hip to admit he liked their music which did not need to be said seeing he was their boss and mentor. This always annoyed me especially due to his hit recording of "This Guys In Love With You" which was just as soft and mellow as anything the Carpenters ever released. And I do respect and admire Herb and have most of his catalog in my music collection.

 

[Nemily]

Herb Alpert is a jazz guy. That reference about initially hearing K&R's music was never anything more than that.

Speaking of Herb Alpert, two things he has said that convince me that even if CTY was never a hit, WOJB would have been. Herb first noticed that they had a sound that was all their own. No one else had it and no one has ever since. The other thing he said is talent always prevails, or something to that effect.

For me though, I was a younger teen when I heard CTY that summer, so maybe it would have been all relative to the listener. The Bacharach/David crush lyrics were more relatable at the time than the Williams/Nichols wedding lyrics. I am not sure I would have bought a Carpenters album if it weren't for CTY. Also, I feel that CTY is their masterpiece and their most polished song. The original recording still gives me chill bumps.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

I was thinking, if the truly unexpected happened and both CTY and WOJB had bombed, then A&M might have given the album one last shot by releasing "Help" as a single. They'd already had minor chart action with "Ticket to Ride," and they had planned to use "Help" as a single anyway until CTY came along -- so it would have been a natural choice to use another Beatles tune.

Just think if "Help" had been "the" big hit from the album. Their career and sound might have gone in extremely different directions!

I don't think it would have happened. "Minor chart action" is being kind. The tune essentially bombed at #54. It would make little sense to go back to a well that really didn't yield anything. I'm honestly not sure where they go if CTY and WOJB bomb. There's nothing else on the record that is a single-ready as those two tunes IMO.

Ed

 

[kprather]

If WOJB and CTY both bomb, that's it. If they don't make it up the chart, nothing else on the album ever would, especially not Help.

 

[JohnFB]

... I am not sure I would have bought a Carpenters album if it weren't for CTY. Also, I feel that CTY is their masterpiece and their most polished song. The original recording still gives me chill bumps.

A good case could be made for CTY being "their masterpiece" and their "most polished song". But, then again, the same case could easily be made for WOJB. And in spite of the enormous success of CTY, R & K considered WOJB their "Signature Song". This is a big factor in comparing the 2 recordings.

 

[JohnFB]

If WOJB and CTY both bomb, that's it. If they don't make it up the chart, nothing else on the album ever would, especially not Help.

HELP was a real good arrangement, but it was not "single" class - it was seriously flawed because the average listener not informed ahead of time wouldn't have been able to tell that it was Karen singing lead - it's yet another recording "from the tunnel"...

I really like MAYBE ITS YOU - it has a slight "haunting" feel to it & a good arrangement - and Karen nails the vocal on it, mostly - but it was not single material because they screwed up the choruses as on so many of their recordings - who the hell is singing lead there?

 

[byline]

I really like MAYBE ITS YOU - it has a slight "haunting" feel to it & a good arrangement - and Karen nails the vocal on it, mostly - but it was not single material because they screwed up the choruses as on so many of their recordings - who the hell is singing lead there?

A question I asked ... never. That exquisite overdubbed harmony chorus was part of their signature sound. No one else did anything like that back then (the Fifth Dimension came close), and it's part of what made the Carpenters sound so special. And it's because Karen nailed her lead vocals that there was never any question in my mind who was singing them.

Now, as to why "Maybe It's You" wasn't suitable to be released as a single, I think that's highly subjective. Some of the most unexpected songs make it as hit singles, while others that you'd think would have been hits flop.

 

[byline]

No one else did anything like that back then (the Fifth Dimension came close), and it's part of what made the Carpenters sound so special.

The Association is another group that comes to mind. The Mamas & the Papas, too. The 5th Dimension and they did soaring vocal harmonies similar to what Richard and Karen were doing, but the richness of the Carpenters' overdubbed vocal harmonies was singular at that time.

 

[Portlander]

The Beach Boys were legendary with their vocal harmonies, set the standard and were one of Richard's biggest influences. The Beatles and the Supremes were also pretty amazing.

 

[byline]

The Beach Boys were legendary with their vocal harmonies, set the standard and were one of Richard's biggest influences. The Beatles and the Supremes were also pretty amazing.

True. I was trying to think of groups who were contemporaries of the Carpenters at the time Close to You hit it big, but the Association and the Mamas & the Papas were really too early. The Beach Boys and Beatles (two of the "three Bs" Richard always cited as his influences) plus the Supremes, as well. The 5th Dimension is a more accurate comparison, in terms of a group with a somewhat similar vocal style who was in their heyday at around the same time as Karen and Richard.

Sorry, I've pulled this thread off-track again!

 

[Portlander]

As far as their contemporaries, I might add Simon and Garfunkel to the mix seeing they were multiple Grammy award winners in 1971 also.

 

[STEVE@ENGLAND]

If WOJB and CTY both bomb, that's it. If they don't make it up the chart, nothing else on the album ever would, especially not Help.

I agree ... If We've only Just Begun flops, then "that's it" (like you said.)

I've just checked the Close to You album track-list - to see whether any other songs
could have been a hit.

But ... can you see Mr. Guder; Another Song; Crescent Noon or I Kept on Loving
You as hits? (If Ticket to Ride wasn't a hit, then why would Help have been any
different?)

Maybe there's a case for considering Baby it's You or Reason to Believe as singles -
if We've only Just Begun flops; however, the latter is, in my view, one of the
Carpenter's finest recordings (as much a 'signature song' as We are the
Champions was to Queen), and, if that doesn't succeed, then, well, nothing would.

 

[newvillefan]

I don't think it would have happened. "Minor chart action" is being kind. The tune essentially bombed at #54. It would make little sense to go back to a well that really didn't yield anything. I'm honestly not sure where they go if CTY and WOJB bomb. There's nothing else on the record that is a single-ready as those two tunes IMO.

Spot on. Being honest, ‘Help’ would have fared the same if not even worse than ‘Ticket’. The sound of the “aaahhhh” harmonies and that intrusive trumpet in the last choruses were way too hard for radio. It’s Karen in her shouty Offering phase when she hadn’t refined her voice. It’s a nice reimagining of a Beatles tune but not hit material at all.

 

[kprather]

But ... can you see Mr. Guder; Another Song; Crescent Noon or I Kept on Loving
You as hits?

No, no, no and no.

 

[kprather]

Maybe there's a case for considering Baby it's You or Reason to Believe as singles -

No and no. No way these two ever hit unless it's on the tails of a previous smash.

Reason *might* have done well on the country chart.

 

[Nemily]

CTY hitting no 1 changed everything. It made them superstars. WOJB was recorded a couple of days prior to CTY hitting no 1 and was released after CTY peaked. The rest of the album was put together quite fast because everything went warp speed after the song CTY ‘we need an album’.

Help and Love is Surrender, were part of the set list of songs that they were playing after they put the band together ….nice cuts that that didn’t make the Offering album.

Reason to Believe was a great cover choice and their signature nod to Nashville. Karen’s vocal was perfect for this song. I kept on Loving You was a Williams/Nichols cut which had already been recorded and was ready to go.

Crescent Noon was a song from when Karen was a student featured in a concert at LBU.

Baby It’s you had some success earlier in 1969 with a group called Smith and this was another Bacharach tune (but with Hal Davids’ brother Mack as the lyricist and Barney William co-writer). Karen’s vocal is compelling, but the song I don’t believe would have charted again in 1970.

Mr. Guder and I’ll Never Fall in Love Again are great stage songs.

The Closing song, titled Another Song (one of my favorites) had shades of chant and psychedelic rock. It is a brilliant Carpenter-Bettis song that has remained a revered deep cut. If CTY and WOJB bomb, they may have ended up reverting back to their roots. Their talent pool was deep.

Maybe it’s You had maybe the best of the rest chance of becoming a single. It isn’t too much outside of what was going on at the time. There was opportunity for this elegantly performed arrangement to chart.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

I will have to agree that there are no other "obvious singles" on the CTY album outside of the two that actually became hits. I only posited "Help" as a possibility because it was written by Lennon/McCartney, and it does't really matter if it doesn't sound like a single, if a record company sees a chance to make lightning strike twice, they'll jump at it. Some A&R guy could have said "Hey, maybe that other Beatles tune would work."

Back to "Ticket to Ride" for a minute: You can't really consider a tune that made it to #54 as a "bomb." It made it nearly halfway up the list of the most popular records in the whole country! How many records did YOU place on that list, especially the first time out the gate? Now, if they'd already had a few big hits, THEN you could consider a #54 song as a flop. Even Richard, on his interview with Chris May, disagrees when Chris refers to the song as a relative failure. He was glad to have made the chart at all. (Do I think it should have gone much higher? Absolutely I do.) And, we've already noted that A&M was well known for giving their artists plenty of runway. If they hadn't had a hit from album #2, they probably would have gotten at least one or two more chances before being shown the proverbial door.

 

[JohnFB]

...

Back to "Ticket to Ride" for a minute: You can't really consider a tune that made it to #54 as a "bomb." It made it nearly halfway up the list of the most popular records in the whole country! How many records did YOU place on that list, especially the first time out the gate? Now, if they'd already had a few big hits, THEN you could consider a #54 song as a flop...

To reiterate, I feel that TTR would have had a better chance for a higher charting if it had been the 3rd single released from OFFERING, behind DON'T BE AFRAID and ALL OF MY LIFE, in that order - both are good, solid Pop tunes...

Or, TTR could have been held back and then released after Karen's re-recording in '74 (?) - this is a great vocal effort, and a great piece of music. One of their best.

 

[rockdoctor]

As we all know, CTY was originally designed as a single only, to see how it would do before making another album. If it bombed, that would probably have been it. No WOJB. Not at A&M anyway.

I was thinking about this statement this morning and I think that even if Close To You did not make it, then there would have been more chances for Richard and Karen. Think of this in comparison for a bit. Lee Michaels had been on the label for3-4 albums with no major action. Rita Coolidge made her debut but no major action either. Lee finally had a hit single on his 5th album. Rita was kept on and did not have her first hit single until 1977. I never heard anything by Lee after his first single and Rita had a fair run of chart success, although I do not understand why "Satisfied" was not a runaway hit album. I truly think that Carpenters would have been kept on for additional tries for A&M.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

I was thinking about this statement this morning and I think that even if Close To You did not make it, then there would have been more chances for Richard and Karen. Think of this in comparison for a bit. Lee Michaels had been on the label for3-4 albums with no major action. Rita Coolidge made her debut but no major action either. Lee finally had a hit single on his 5th album. Rita was kept on and did not have her first hit single until 1977.

The Hot 100 was not everything at A&M, or any other label, in those days. Lee and Rita got FM album play, sold in smaller numbers but profitably, since they had smaller production budgets. They were more in tune with the early 70s vibe (don't forget, you go out the A&M gate, turn right, make the next left and you're headed straight for the clubs on the Sunset Strip), and more of the promotion staff saw a future for them than for Karen and Richard until the money began to roll in.

Even then, though, there were people at A&M (and I know this from experience) who by mid-decade, despite the money, were wondering when K&R (and Captain and Tennille)'s run would be over so they could focus on artists like Frampton and Styx.

 

[STEVE@ENGLAND]

No and no. No way these two ever hit unless it's on the tails of a previous smash.

Reason *might* have done well on the country chart.

I agree ... If the single Close to You had flopped, then We've only Just Begun
was, I think, Karen & Richard's 'last chance saloon'.

Baby it's You or Reason to Believe may very well have been hits - but only
"on the tails of" Close to You being successful; however, if the latter had
flopped, then that, I feel, marked the end of (the) Carpenters.

Curiously, over here in England, Close to You reached #6 (in the U.K singles
charts); whereas, We've Only just Begun only reached #28 (#28 - I ask
you!)

So, if the former had flopped, the latter would, no doubt, have fared much
worse than #28.