Who Played On Early TJB Albums?

[billyjinsa]

Greetings fellow TJB fans!

Does anyone know who the studio musicians were who played on the original and early TJB albums?

For example: Who played bass on 1962's "The Lonely Bull" ?

Just call me: "Mr. Curious!"

lol...

Thanks!

billyjinsa

San Antonio, Texas, USA

PS-Support our troops and remember 9-11 (Though I wish I could forget...)

 

[Harry]

Welcome to the forum.

At present there are really only theories as to who played on the early albums. We know some of the players, just not all of them. Herb for sure played all trumpet parts and Julius Wechter was around for percussion and marimba. IINM, Bob Edmondson was around in those earliest days, and we know that Carol Kaye played bass during the WHIPPED CREAM album sessions.

Beyond that, we just don't know. Hopefully, when the new CDs are released, they'll be repleat with liner notes that go into detail as to who played what and when.

Harry
...welcoming another new member, online...

 

[DAN BOLTON]

That's also Carol on 12 string during MEXICAN SHUFFLE...we THINK that either Paul Desmond or Plas Johnson played sax on LOVE POTION #9; Leon Russell played piano on ATOH, and probably on at least several other cuts; Pete Jolly played piano on several albums. John Pisano played guitar on UP CHERRY STREET from SOTB, then regularly beginning with GOING PLACES...Hal Blaine played drums on ATOH, and Nick Ceroli joined the group during the recording of GOING PLACES. Bud Coleman most likely played mandolin on a lot of the early TJB albums...

I wonder who did the whistling on ACAPULCO 1922...maybe Toots Theilmans? Maybe he did it on SO WHAT'S NEW...


Dan

 

[Rudy]

FWIW, Paul Desmond wouldn't guest on anyone's album (he was too finicky to play all of Brubeck's songs, for that matter...he sits out most of side 2 on "Time Further Out", for example), and beside that, he didn't play tenor, and tone is nowhere close to his. Plas Johnson's a good guess since he was a predominant t-sax figure in that west coast scene, but it doesn't quite sound like him either. Similar tone, but the intonation is off--solo's too short on "Love Potion" to tell who it is.

We really need some concrete notes...

 

[Mike]

Rudy, I`m a little whatever, what is FWIW?

 

[TonyCurrie]

For what it's worth.....

 

[Mike]

Thank you Tony, to much red wine, and once again I`m embracing humility.
Thank you kindly,
Mike

 

[Rudy]

Pass the wine, Mike...I've had a rough one today myself.

 

[dostros]

Hi there,

...we THINK that either Paul Desmond or Plas Johnson played sax on LOVE POTION #9; Leon Russell played piano on ATOH, and probably on at least several other cuts; ...Hal Blaine played drums on ATOH,

Dan

Since Leon and Hal were both on ATOH, would it be too hasty to say that possibly others from Phil Spector's Wrecking Crew band could have been there too? The sax could have been Nino Tempo? Of course, with Julius Wechter there, Sonny Bono and his moustache would have been superfluous on percussion

Other Wrecking Crew were Glen Campell and Billy Strange. Another point to remember is that Leon was apparently playing a lot of guitar on sessions at this point.

David O

 

[dostros]

Wow, you can sure get into trouble when you are too hasty. Turns out the Wrecking Crew included plenty of other players at different times, including jazz guitarist Barney Kessell, singer-guitarist Glen Campbell, Billy Strange, bassist Carol Kaye, Irve Rubin, Bill Pitman, Tommy Tedesco, legendary drummer Hal Blaine, Earl Palmer, Ritchie Frost, pianist Leon Russell, Larry Knechtel, Harold Battiste, Don Randi, Nino Tempo, Mike Spencer, Al Delory, Steve Douglas, Jay Migliori, Lou Blackburn, Roy Caton, Jimmy Bond, Ray Pullman, Wallick Dean, Mac Rebennack ("Dr John"), Sonny Bono, Frank Kapp, Julius Wechter, Gene Estes, Jeff Melvoin and Gary Coleman. So says the Milesago.com website in the Studio Artists section.

Julius Wechter was even in there!

So we are no closer to the Truth.

David O

 

[dostros]

Sorry, I can't leave this topic alone. I found this passage in a long article on the LA Weekly website, talking about session musicians:

". There is nothing quite like what happens when real people — even ones paid to be there — play music in a room together. Even as deceptively square a piece of old suburban fun as “A Taste of Honey,” the song I heard playing on Tommy Tedesco’s kitchen radio that day, rewards a close listening; it may be pure product, but you might even say it grooves. The clean-shaven Latinisms of Herb Alpert’s trumpet, Tedesco’s light-handed guitar, Julius Wechter’s watery marimba, the easy-walking bass of Lyle Ritz, and Hal Blaine’s famous four-count bass-drum intro — his own invention — and tumbling shuffle-fills all approach real perfection: the Platonic ideal of . . . Hollywood pop mariachi. It’s played so well that the players disappear, taking with them every trace of effort, of ego, of distraction. All that’s left is music."

The author had interviewed Tommy Tedesco 15 years ago, and Tedesco had said he had played on ATOH. So maybe the information comes from him.

David O

 

[Rudy]

Carol Kaye may remember some of the players on there as well. Thing is, to the session musicians back then, it was just another daily job among dozens of daily jobs within a month's time, and it all turns into a blur. One way to check is to look at the records at the musician's union, but even there, the records aren't always accurate.

If anything, I hope that any upcoming reissues give some session information. We've wondered about a lot of this for years!

 

[Numero Cinco]

I apologize for posting tangential to the main thread, but here's a related curiosity of personnel about which I've long wondered: On the back cover of The Lonely Bull LP, lower left-hand corner, standing next to Herb in their Roy Rogers outfits:

Who are those guys?

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Hard to say...nobody's ever really identified them. It's been speculated that the photo was "staged"...but we really don't know for sure. It would be hard to imagine a group of musicians dressing alike for session work. Nobody even seems to know who took the photo or even where it was taken...


Dan

 

[whippedflea]

I don't know if there were very many "all-star" players on THE LONELY BULL album. I 've always thought that the album was just recorded with whatever musical buddies Herb had on hand. Julius Wechter was a buddy right from the start (so I've heard).

To my ear, I can hear Bob Edmundson on VOLUME 2, since there is so much trombone on the album.

I don't have specific dates, but with Herman's Hermits version of "Wonderful World" being a big hit in 1964, that may have had an effect on who Herb could hire for the SOUTH OF THE BORDER sessions. I'm sure royalty money helped get players like Hal Blaine and Carole Kaye on the album.

I get the feeling that WHIPPED CREAM and GOING PLACES were both done in one BIG session over a long period of time. The TJB members were eased in a little at a time. Of all the initial TJB members, I don't hear much of Nick Ceroli on GOING PLACES. I hear Pisano, Edmundson and Pagani - but not Nick, most of it still sounds like Hal Blaine on the drums.

From that point on out (in spite of recent liner notes), I think the basic rhythm section of the TJB (Ceroli, Senatore, Pagani & Ceroli) were on all of the foundation tracks from 1966-1969. The rest of the TJB would probably play percussion and I know Edmundson did a lot of trombone overdubbing (as there's a lot of trombone harmony lines). Only if Herb wanted "more" on the records (like a choral group, extra guitar, saxophone, cello, etc.) would he bring someone else in.

Speaking of which, I was kind of shocked when the new reissues didn't mention a whole lot more about "who played what" on the albums. It was kind of a let down and I thought we'd all be able to end the speculation once and for all.

 

[Captaindave]

Speaking of which, I was kind of shocked when the new reissues didn't mention a whole lot more about "who played what" on the albums. It was kind of a let down and I thought we'd all be able to end the speculation once and for all.

May I enter a bold speculation here? I have a feeling that Herb may not think this matter of personnel on the recordings is important. For some reason I tend to interpret some of his comments he has made when interviewed as being that he was more interested/involved in creating a sound and style and a musical innovation, than in creating and maintaining a band per se. The Tijuana Brass "band" was a tool for getting the sound and style out to the public from the concert stage, and to meet the demand for public performance of the recordings played on the radio. I see the band part of it as simply a necessary part of the total project/sound Herb had created and invented called the "Tijuaua Brass." In other words, the "Tijuana Brass" was a concept - not so much a specific group of people - and the concept was centered around Herb Alpert. He himself is/was the "Tijuana Brass." It was something that existed in his head. Other people might have been involved in helping Herb carry out the concept from time to time, here and there, and come and go as needed...

I have a feeling he might say that he was into the sound and the songs and the arrangements and the creative process, and the matter of who was playing on the recording may have been of secondary importance...

I know I'm speculating, but I feel that he may have been more interested in the recording process, the product; and less into the matter of who played each and every session. In an area like LA, there would be no shortage of top players around and available to play anytime and anything...

FWIW...IMHO...

 

[spanky1]

I've read in more than one place where Billy Lee Riley claims to have played guitar on The Lonely Bull. For those who may not remember, he was from Arkansas and was one of the early Sun Records artists. His releases were legendary to rockabilly historians. "Red Hot" and "Flying Saucer Rock and Roll" stand on their own to this day.

He moved out west and did some session work in the early-mid 60's. Very possible that he's truthful.

Not sure if he claims to have played on more than one song or not.

Michael H.

 

[Dore Adler]

Here are the musicians for Lonely Bull (and for that matter -- Acapulco 1922 and the Kenjolairs 45)

Herb Alpert (of course)
Ervin Coleman - Guitar, Mandolin
Lew McCreary - Trombone
Earl Palmer - Drums
William Pittman - Guitar
Ray Pohlman - Bass
Julius Wechter - Marimba
David Wells - Trombone
Ira Westley - Tuba

Courtesy of http://www.amcorner.com/

 

[Mr Bill]

KenJoLairs were the male background singers. Don't know who the female was bu one of the KenJoLairs said he thought it was Sharon Alpert, though I would not be too certain of that...

--Mr Bill

 

[whippedflea]

I was listening to GOING PLACES last night and it still seems to me that (for whatever reason) Pat and Nick are not on most of the album. It sounds like Hal Blaine and Carole Kaye (or just somebody else). My reasoning for this is varied; Nick wasn't as much of a hard playing, "clubber" drummer as is heard here. Also, the bass playing on the GOING PLACES album is far better than WHAT NOW MY LOVE and S.R.O. (listen for yourself).

 

[Captaindave]

I was listening to GOING PLACES last night and it still seems to me that (for whatever reason) Pat and Nick are not on most of the album. It sounds like Hal Blaine and Carole Kaye (or just somebody else). My reasoning for this is varied; Nick wasn't as much of a hard playing, "clubber" drummer as is heard here. Also, the bass playing on the GOING PLACES album is far better than WHAT NOW MY LOVE and S.R.O. (listen for yourself).

You may be correct...I don't know...but if so, it simply reinforces my theory that the goal is always to record the sound and deliver the product (recording). And, the less time it takes to do it, the better...

That could have been accomplished by any number of expert session players. That, in fact, is exactly what they are paid to do...play anything - any sound in any style and any kind of music, and do it expertly and convincingly, and provide whatever musical part is needed or expected. I can easily see how Herb Alpert could have contracted a session for an album, or various tracks on an album, with any number of different players. It is possible, in fact maybe likely, that different players are on different tracks. If you look at the credits on more recent albums, it will often indicate that different players were used on different tracks on the same album.

That is the nature of session work, be it movie soundtracks, record albums, commercial jingles, TV themes, etc.

 

[whippedflea]

From early on, Herb had his choice of musicians to pick from too. Working with Sam Cooke is probably what helped his connections with RCA records (as well as the tiny labels). I also have an old Harry Nilsson record with a demo with Herb on it from 1960. In spite of Herb not becoming a big "star" until 1962-1965, he really moved up the ranks quick. I just wish someone would have kept track of who played what on the pre-1975 sessions...didn't Herb know that it would drive nuts like me crazy 30 years later?

And, as for doing the sessions quick, that's another asset of Herb's. It's been said that "Rise" was recorded live in the studio.

 

[Mike Blakesley]

didn't Herb know that it would drive nuts like me crazy 30 years later?

Nope! Herb is quoted in an interview somewhere, saying "As an instrumentalist I only figured I had a short time in the spotlight." So I'm sure he was figuring he'd be just a "flash in the pan" and be relegated to the Where Are They Now file after those first few years.

 

[rmos]

Wouldn't there be some sort of paperwork, that had to be filed with the L.A. Musician's Union by A&M, that would show who was playing on the session dates in question? Just a thought.

 

[Mr Bill]

Yes, there is paperwork and some people have managed to access some of it and even posted those findings elsewhere in this forum. Trouble is the further back you go, the harder it is to find that paperwork -- lost over time, lost to various natural phenomenon (paper does decay, an offcie fire can dispatch big chunks of relevant history, employees misfile or steal and much more).

--Mr Bill