Who Played On Early TJB Albums?

[whippedflea]

Wouldn't there be some sort of paperwork, that had to be filed with the L.A. Musician's Union by A&M, that would show who was playing on the session dates in question? Just a thought.

Usually there would be (I think). A friend of mine actually gained access to the physical files of the Monkees original record label, Colgems, back in the late 1980's. The files were kept at RCA in New York until shortly after that. All the files for the "releases" had the musician credits on them. However...this was for an RCA affiliated label. Since Herb owned A&M himself back then, he may not have been so tight with filing and general who did what. He didn't have a big corporation with CEO's breathing down his back. Chances are, he may have felt that such paperwork wasn't really worth keeping on file and that's why we're still speculating almost 44 years later.

 

[Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar]

There has been some confusion of paper work at the Musicians Union in LA. Has Blaine was the drummer on "The Lonely Bull".

But regarding studion musicians, you can pretty much hire any studio cat if you're willing to pay the price. And it's really not as hard as you think.

Happy Thanksgiving..................J

 

[alpertfan]

I have a theory that it was Steve Douglas on sax on "Love Potion No. 9". He was a "Wrecking Crew" member, as were Bob Edmondson, Tonni Kalash, and Joe Osborne.

I think the reason why we don't know who played on what is because by contractual obligations, personnel listings weren't shown. On the Beatles' "All You Need Is Love", it has been revealed that the chorus consisted of Mick Jagger and Keith Richards among others.

 

[Dore Adler]

Ahem--

http://www.amcorner.com/home.html

This is the url I should have posted before (although you can get to it from the one I did post!)

I think it will answer a lot of questions being asked in this thread.

 

[whippedflea]

Where has this site been all my life???? If you hit a google search for "Herb Alpert" and "recording" and/or "sessions" - this site DOESN'T come up. Anyway...this clears a couple of things up, but fogs a few...here's what I mean.

As for the TONNI KALLISH issue - Our only point that says he rarely played on TJB sessions was an interview with Pat Senatore. But, look closely, Senatore wasn't at all the sessions either, so how would he know beyond a doubt?

And Hal Blaine on TRUMPET?????

 

[Captain Bacardi]

We caution you about the accuracy of things on this person's site. She (who will not be named) left this site and burned many bridges in the process. She also put out a book about the A&M Discography that had more errors than the '63 New York Mets had (and that's a lot!). I've already seen about a dozen errors at this link, and I'm sure there are more. Remember, just because there's something on a website doesn't necessarily mean it's accurate!


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Dore Adler]

OK, but for now it's the only resource we have. Maybe we should start a thread that discusses those errors!

 

[whippedflea]

That there is errors in the link was a given from the get go. Just for the fact that Herb himself is quoted somewhere as playing piano on cuts from THE LONELY BULL and that he also used "the drummer from the Ventures" on some of that same album.

 

[thetijuanataxi]

No one ever said that Tonni Kalash didn't sit in during the sessions. But it is believed that he was primarily used to provide melody for the rest of the band and then Herb would record his trumpet parts and replace Tonni in the final mix. And I don't care what this "nameless person" says, I would bet body parts that Bob Edmonson played trombone on "Tijuana Sauerkraut".

David,
who also doubts the accuracy of "her" session lists

 

[whippedflea]

I had thought about the reasoning that Tonni's parts were later erased by Herb, if they were ever recorded at all. Herb's maticulousness would warrant that, but if getting the recordings done with speed and ease was important...why NOT have Tonni contribute to the records?

I'm wondering now if if Herb always had a 2nd trombonist after 1967. Trombone harmony parts are all over the place, especially on HERB ALPERT'S NINTH.

 

[Numero Cinco]

… but if getting the recordings done with speed and ease was important...why NOT have Tonni contribute to the records?

To me, the obvious answer would be that the trumpet that Mr. A. heard in his head, and wanted recorded, was his own, not Tonni Kalish's. The latter's use in concert would thus be a concession to human finitude, as Herb, live and in person, couldn't harmonize himself. He was good, but nobody's that good!

 

[Harry]

Think of it in terms of Carpenters recordings. The arrangements were done for multiple parts, all sung by Karen and Richard. In concert, they had to use people like Tony Peluso and Doug Strawn to fill in the harmony parts, but nearly never used those "band" members on the harmony parts on the studio recordings.

I'll bet it was the same for Tonni. If he was used in the studio, it was to get a feel for the way the song would ultimately sound, not to lay down the actual recorded parts. Remember, Herb's been quoted in liner notes and credits on DEFINITIVE HITS as being the sole trumpet player, except for the orchestral trumpets in things like "Casino Royale". It was likely that way for all of the TjB recordings, in spite of who else may have been at the recording sessions.

Harry

 

[venturaguy49]

Two thing's for certain: a.) that back in thosd 'pre-Beatles' years(in America, that was '64), the players didn't really matter much. apart from Jazzers that tended to keep track of who played on what, the average Pop listener couldn't care less. Even the studio players regarded their every gig as a job.
Nothing more than that, a job that helped pay rent, buy groceries and put gas in the tank, and if they were very lucky, they'd have some mad money to spend, and the time to enjoy it, but for most of them, they lived a hectic life. and had to be near the phone at all times(if one didn't catch the latest call rightaway, then it went to whomever did, so being a studio player was hardly a glamorous job. Of course most of them knew each other, and the chances are better than good that the personnel for one group was also together on many others. With A&M, these were players that had already(as I'd just observed in previous sentance) played together, but had a special rapport, so they could accept gigging for a small label that prob'ly couldn't pay as generously as most would prefer, but it was a rewarding experience to created a new label that was by, for, and of the artist(notably, but not exclusively the Tijuana Brass). Also, they had the advantage of working for two of the nicest guys in the Biz. Furtherly, because Herb was a recording act in his own right, he could relate to whomever he hired. After all, it hadn't been all that long since Herb was a studio player too, and could appreciate what such as lifestyle was like. In A&M, players had a steady gig, and with it, personal security. Prob is that, as with most other studios, they were busy all the time, and so keeping track of just which sessions that played in, and with whom(these now are folk that are 70+ years, and we know what happens to memory with advancing years Also, back then, the buying public was concerned with consistancy, and so the notion of more than one bassist, drummer of what not on an album would've seemed inappropriate. Like the Tijuana Brass were those seven guys 'cuz they were pictured on more than one album, and then introduced on S.R.O., so •of course• they played on everything. Heck(and this is embarrassing to admit), but when it became known that the very earliest of Brass albums didn't feature the official group, I felt rather disappointed. For a while, though I didn't avoid those albums, it's like they became rather bas†ardized to me('scuze me language), so for that reason I can appreciate that others may've felt the same way. That's prob'ly why personnel were never mentioned(another sage opinion from me, or is it that Hookah that's speaking-the stuff puts me in a near-death experience, and the result can be some re-ordered conciensiousness
(this is some bad-ass salsa!)...
Perhaps players such as Tonni Kalash were with the BMB.
Point is, that there's(to my hookahed reasoning) several logical reasons for why it was impractical to mention the players, and with it I'll leave this rather interesting thread for others.

Warm Wishes,
de hookahhead
Yeah, hitting that atomic hotsause is quite a profound experience

 

[venturaguy49]

Goto Home Page and find interviews...within one is that answer to just who those guys were, and while yer attit, you'll enjoy a neat pair of lengthy items that are worth finding(lol 'cuz right off, I can't recall just what it's heading is, but me thinks it's Gallery, or sumpin' like that.
Have FUN

Warm Wishes,
your fav'rite atomic salsahead
P.S. before I split, I'll mention(in regards to the hot y heavy debate on who played on what, that I think that Nick Ceroli really •did• play on "Going Places", on the track "And The Angels Sing", as that cool kickdrum(bassdrum n flyswatters(brushes) combo is more sophisticated that Hal Blaine is known for; it just seems to Ceroliesque for (as you correctly put it, a heavy-handed player like Blaine.Now I'll havta compare the bass y drums of those aforementioned albums. One thing's for sure, if the bassist is indeed Carole Kaye, then that naturally expains why G.P grooves so much. It's one heckova (scuze me on this) bî†chin' album(like who's gonna disagree...and widdat, I'll check outta here, and hit de hay, and so I'll be available on the other syde.

 

[venturaguy49]

Given that it was popularized by the Clovers on Atlantic, which was a label renouned for used hot ten. sax(I'll have to pull out my cd version of "Hisory of Atlantic R&B sometime, as I believe the player on the original Clovers recording is listed, but it's obvious that the T.J.B. rendition clearly invoked Atlantic's famous sax style, which is present on many a record from them(Atlantic).
Now, as for Paul Desmond haven played that, one must also consider that if we're talking about the same Desmond that had recording engineers mic only his sax's bell(to avoid the instrument's natural reedy sound, which Paul just hated No, Paul Desmond wouldn't open a solo on •any• sax with a gutteral quality...not the purist that he was, but on certain occasions when he was paired with Gerry Mulligan in later Brubeck combos, Desmond did play notably edgier...I think his performance of "Brandenberg Gate" is a prime example of Desmond displaying a harder sound. Mulligan referred to him as 'Desperate Desmond'. But playing gutteral? No, it's not likely. Actually, he and Stan Getz were both inspired by Lester Young
(of Count Basie fame). Now, as for a convincing tribute to Getz, it's Herb Alpert's second solo(middle eight in Girl From Ipanema. Here we have a performance that sounds Getzish, and with that I'll bid you all a good one.

Warm Wishes,
that hookahhead
soon to have another near-death experience when I dips me next tortilla chip in that wonderful atomic stuff that I jest love. If the bottle depicted a thermometer(to indicate heat level, Hookah'd have the darned thing •explode•...but it's so good!

 

[westernstar99]

I had thought about the reasoning that Tonni's parts were later erased by Herb, if they were ever recorded at all. Herb's maticulousness would warrant that, but if getting the recordings done with speed and ease was important...why NOT have Tonni contribute to the records?

I'm wondering now if if Herb always had a 2nd trombonist after 1967. Trombone harmony parts are all over the place, especially on HERB ALPERT'S NINTH.

Another possible reason that Tonni Kalash's name appears on these sessions could be that Herb wanted to include Tonni and probably Lou Pagani in any royalties that may have been paid in the future. I always thought studio players were simply paid an hourly fee for their sessions and weren't included in royalties. If the featured performer were "Herb Alpert" and not "Herb Alpert and The Tijuana Brass" that would likely be the case. I don't know the ins and outs of the recording scene back then, so let's kick this one around some. Also---Local 47 on Vine St. in Hollywood keeps these records. And for a fee, they will research them.

 

[venturaguy49]

Personally, I'd imagine that, as with most music of the very early 60s, personnel didn't matter, and given that the then-current 'Tijuana Brass' was put together to record what was essentially a novelty record("Lonely Bull"), and I'll read a quote from Herb himself that he had no intentions of a follow-up. It was just a fun record, intended as a one-time event to commemorate an exciting afternoon in the T.J. bullring, and included into that record were various crowd noises. What neither Alpert nor Moss could anticipate, was the tremendous appeal of that first effort. To this very day, it remains one of Herb's finest accomplishments. The thing grooves fabulously,
with a rhythm that seems to me a cross between Boss Nova y Cha-Cha or perhaps the skip effect that the Every Bros. used on "Cathy's Clown" Maybe all three were used, but still, despite the great appeal of that record, one would have to be awfully presumptive to think that debut disk was the beginning of a world-class group, and that in some 3 yrs, the Tijuana Brass would become the fourth most popular band in the U.S. and much of the world as a whole(including Mexicans, who were also T.J.B. enthusiasts. Yet, even so, there was a wide gulf between the groups first two major hits.
("Mexican Shuffle" would officially become their first in a long string of unbroken hits, but that was later). Meanwhile, back at the beginning, no practical person in the recording biz would bet much on an instrumental combo, as at best, most had only 4 hits, and then just headed for the sunset. So, given that as a backdrop to the early T.J.B., it wouldn't be logical to list the few players who put those recordings together via overdubbing. They weren't a group. In fact, according to Herb, the 'Tijuana Brass' that was pictured on the back cover of the "L.B." cover were an actual group, rather than just so-many folks assembled for a photo op...they just weren't the folks playing of the album. One glance at just what instruments they're holding should provide a clue. Nowhere seen in the pic is a trombonist(and most likely Bob Edmondson was present on the date), or marimba(Julius Wechter), nor. for that matter, another familiar face(Ervin 'Bud' Coleman of Baja Marimba Band fame). Also, and this comes from Herb himself, and not an outside source, that the drummer was also with the Ventures(remember, this is '62, which is when the Ventures started, and so neither group has any reasonable hopes of durability, so of course one took as many gigs as possible. So wo the guy that played drums of the Tijuana Brass' version of Lonely Bull is also the very same one that played on the Ventures version. And no-one gave a fig. When one did a recording date, they were like actors that portrayed roles, which means when they played a Baja Marimba date, they played Baja Marimba. When the backed Ronnie Spector, they did it Phil's way('cuz who's gonna argue with a gun-toting producer So loyalty to any particular group was unthinkable, and because credits were never given, it hardly mattered. one just played the was the group played, and recieved their pay for the session. Both Herb Alpert y Tonni Kalash both gigged for Phil.
The T.J.B.'s appeal came to Herb and gang as typical 20/20 hindsight.
And all that Herb knew about Tijuana anything was the bullfights, and jamming with local musicians, so as for what a 'Tijuana Brass' would be remained to be formulated, and doing so took the first 3 albums for that to gel. ***second topic here***

What I'd just love to hear would be the rehearsal session for the 'official' T.J.B. I'd imagine that many of the listed players were present, as the plain advantage was finally having a real group that could create recordings 'en toto' right there in the studio, even if they be only demos. Thing is that the players •benefitted• from participating. Finally, they had a 'pop' group to present themselves in, so that othewise jazzers such as John Pisano could become recognized, as could Bob Edmondson(up 'till then, the trombone was seldomly used, apart from recordings by Si Zentner and such(and those that went out as singles-"More" in particular, didn't showcase the trombone as generously as the T.J.B. did for Edmondson, and it would be a few years before James Pankow and Chicago, so Bob E. was, for all practical matters. the reigning 'bone player. And for a drummer such as Nick Ceroli, the T.J.B. was perfect, as he(Nick) could be heard on Top 40 as a name player without having to resort to playing rock. Note the rhythmic comlexities that are associated with Brass recordings from the time that Ceroli was reputed to join(many tracks on "Going Places" just don't sound at all like Hal Blaine to me, but then again, Blaine drummed delicately on an earlier Brass gem("Ladyfingers"), so the guy could be gentle when neccessary. But there's just some stuff that, in a blindfold test, wouldn't be attributed to Blaine. Rather Nick Ceroli would be a more likely choice. Nick was more agile, with a lighter touch, and also player more dynamically. I'll just mention a few tracks, being "And The Angels Sing"(the intro's pure Ceroli to me), and "Felicia", which sounds like a Ceroli thing...Sure, anyone that can make it though a challenging track such as "Green Peppers" as Blaine had is obviously a skilled player, but there's just certain things, just subtleties that just don't seem like him. Surely the groups's recording sessions doubled as rehearsals for live performances, and from which album tracks developed, but regardless of whatever, I'd love to hear the demos, or the outtakes, or whatever may've included the 'official' septet know as Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass.

But for now, I'll havta settle for anodder swig of that atomic salsa that'll send me into an outta body experience...one tortilla chip dipped in that, and it's an Astral Event for yers truly

Warm Wishes,
mellowmood

 

[venturaguy49]

Ok, I've a dear and longtime drummer friend of mine named Doug Light, who had literally •studied• drums for some 40 or more years. Also, though Doug, I had the special opportunity to meet some of his(Doug's) professional friends, and so along with drummer Shelly Manne and pianist/bandleader Les Hooper, I also was introduced to Nick Ceroli during a break between sets at the Le Cafe in(I believe) Glendale Ca some years back. As it was, Doug and Nick knew each other on a first-name basis, and so I got to yak informally with the T.J.B.'s famous drummer. One thing that I brought to Nick's attention was a selection in which he played a swingy shuffle very much like that which was used on the Brass' recording of "Slick"...Ceroli just went into mellow nostalgic mood, and commented on the fact that those were fun times for him. Interestinly enough, he also joined in for the "Bullish" concert tour. I'm not sure if I had anything to do with influencing that decision of his to participate, but still, if only y'all could've been there, and seem the expression on Nick's face, it'd be obvious that at one time, his experience with the T.J.B. was special.
***now on to my idea***
One thing that I've learned though Doug(along with many cool techniques for drumming that I enjoy using in my purely amatuer way) is how to listen for little clues as to who's playing. Certain signature effects such as drum tuning and timbre of cymbals identify players, even though they othewise blend into the sessions that they're hired for; such effects identify the players, so that a Nick Ceroli, or a Hal Blain, Jeff Porcaro, or for that matter Ringo Starr use specialties that a trained listener can spot...in Ringos case, it's in both the tuning and dampening of his snare that identify him, during and beyond the Beatles, Ringo sounds like Ringk, so what I'll have to do it put Doug though a blindfold test of T.J.B. recordings; Doug's one of those players that I've know to frequently comment of such matters, so he's a likely candidate for figuring out just who drummed on what track, or at least come a whole lot closer than any of us will, or can. Now I'll have to record a few samples, and send them off, as Doug relocated to San Leandro from El Lay, and is presently adjusting to his new environment, but I'll drop his a line about it.
If Doug Light can't discern who's who, then no-one can't either. The guy's just that good at this sort of thing, and with that I'll close.

Warm Wishes,
yer fav'rite hookahhead and drummer analyst at large

P.S. for anyone that may wish to read some of Doug's journalese, just type
'meet the bandleaders doug light' into your search window, and a feature about trumpet/bandleader and educator Dave Hardiman should appear. click it, and you'll be directed to a really nice feature. and with that it's really and truly ta ta for now...so that I can once again hit that magma-in-a-jar that I love so darned much. L8ER