Karen Carpenter Solo Sessions - Continued

[byline]

I try to avoid pitying Karen. She was sweet and supremely talented. She was also a human being, with all the same flaws and foibles as the rest of us. She made good choices, and she made bad ones, just as we all do.

But what I hear, in the instances we're discussing, is an overly mannered approach to singing lyrics. Why? I can only guess. But, even with Phil as producer, encouraging Karen to loosen up a bit, it still happened. And with her inner circle shrinking, there are fewer who were around then and can give us any insight.

 

[JohnFB]

Indeed.

Sorry - the Devil made me say it...

I've been laying low lately trying to be a good boy - but it's so damn hard to do...

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Ar

Poor Dear Sweet Karen - we all love her so much, and are in awe at her amazing talent - but many of us have played armchair or amateur psychiatrist with her and her life and times - it's almost inevitable, or at least highly irresistible...for one good example, some of us are curious what was going through her mind when she finally arrived at the despicable man she married, especially after 9 or 10 previous romantic relationships with mostly good men...didn't she learn anything?

But, I digress...

Are we not learning from previous closed threads? This post is the exact reason why her solo threads gets closed. We were talking about her choice of songs and her vocal techniques and this post is all about her personal fluff. The problem is you post this and then someone’s replies with more personal negativity and then it’s shut down.

I hate seeing her solo threads keep getting closed so please be respectful in keeping her solo threads from destruction.

 

[Chris]

It's one of the very few things I disliked about Karen's singing. Over time, she became more "mannered" in her pronunciation. This is one of the times when she really overdid it, IMO, seemingly trying to overcompensate for something she found lacking. I've never been able to articulate just what, but it's there. At the risk of playing armchair psychiatrist, it's as if she couldn't fully commit to the lyrics, so she overcompensated with vocal techniques.

I think Ed sums it up for me in a post that preceded yours:


I agree. I think if this weren't the only solo album we were left with, history would be kinder to this one as an experimental step forward for Karen.

I agree about her mannered pronunciation as the years went on. For some reason it doesn't bother me so much on "All Because of You". The song is such a departure for her overall that I found myself taking the playful journey with her in that case and I think her vocal quality on it is outstanding. Where her mannered singing really bothers me is in some of the later live concert performances. I appreciate changing things up a bit, but at times it didn't seem like interesting choices so much as it was just odd.

While I enjoy All Because of You, I definitely agree that it didn't belong in the position of track #2 on the album.

 

[byline]

Are we not learning from previous closed threads? This post is the exact reason why her solo threads gets closed. We were talking about her choice of songs and her vocal techniques and this post is all about her personal fluff. The problem is you post this and then someone’s replies with more personal negativity and then it’s shut down.

I hate seeing her solo threads keep getting closed so please be respectful in keeping her solo threads from destruction.

I apologize. I contributed to it with my armchair analysis. In the future I will try to avoid succumbing to that impulse to speculate.

 

[JohnFB]

Ar

Are we not learning from previous closed threads? This post is the exact reason why her solo threads gets closed...

I hate seeing her solo threads keep getting closed so please be respectful in keeping her solo threads from destruction.

I said "I digress".

Harry said "Indeed!"

I said "Sorry..."

That pretty well closed the digression out & got us back on track..it was all settled before you got here. But thanks for your concern.

 

[newvillefan]

Karen approved the song to appear on her album so it has to stay.

How would you make the tracks flow with keeping All Because of You?

Not an auspicious beginning at all, and a really poor choice of a song to include on the album, especially at the #2 position.

While I enjoy All Because of You, I definitely agree that it didn't belong in the position of track #2 on the album.

Going on your logic Rick that Karen approved its inclusion (which I will reluctantly agree to ), and seeing that the consensus is it was too weak to be second track in on side A, here's the new running order. All I did was insert it on side B, without touching anything else. This still maintains the 'ebb and flow' of the album I mentioned, and arguably even improves it - because many albums around the same time always had an extra track on side B than side A.

Lovelines
Make Believe It's Your First Time
If I Had You
Makin' Love In The Afternoon
Still Crazy After All These Years

Still In Love With You
All Because Of You
My Body Keeps Changing My Mind
Guess I Just Lost My Head
If We Try
Remember When Lovin' Took All Night

I really like this. In this running order, I could actually keep it in

One other thing I really like? 'Make Believe' ends in the same key as 'If I Had You' starts. It just sounds very classy.

 

[JohnFB]

But what I hear, in the instances we're discussing, is an overly mannered approach to singing lyrics. Why? I can only guess. But, even with Phil as producer, encouraging Karen to loosen up a bit, it still happened. And with her inner circle shrinking, there are fewer who were around then and can give us any insight.

Lucy O'Brien's book "Lead Sister - The Karen Carpenter Story" contains in its later chapters a detailed description of the Solo Album sessions, more so than "Little Girl Blue" - this includes insightful interviews with some of the original session players, including quotes from Liberty Devitto...

 

[newvillefan]

Lucy O'Brien's book "Lead Sister - The Karen Carpenter Story" contains in its later chapters a detailed description of the Solo Album sessions, more so than "Little Girl Blue" - this includes insightful interviews with some of the original session players, including quotes from Liberty Devitto...

Are these the same interviews as were featured in Rick Henry's online book?

Carpenters Online Interviews Edition Three

In this book, Rick Henry interviews numerous people tha…

www.goodreads.com

 

[Harry]

I'd adjust the order thusly:

I like Stephen's first side order:

Side One
Lovelines
Make Believe It's Your First Time
If I Had You
Makin' Love In The Afternoon
Still Crazy After All These Years

Side Two
If We Try
Still In Love With You
My Body Keeps Changing My Mind
Guess I Just Lost My Head
Remember When Lovin' Took All Night
All Because Of You

Side Two kicks off with the earlier discussed "If We Try", which I suppose could have been a second single. This buries the two Javors tunes on the second side, and gives us "Still In Love With You" earlier than the other which comes dead last. That keeps the more uptempo song in with some others on that side. We get three disco-ish songs together with the lesser-disco "Guess I Just Lost My Head" in between the other two.

I'm not fond of "All Because Of You" finishing up the album. I'd prefer something with more impact, but then again this sort of stripped-down song kind of mirrors "Sometimes" finishing up the Tan album. And the final note that Karen sings is rather ethereal as it drifts off into nothing.

This order also evens out the side lengths. Side One is around 20-ish minutes, Side Two is around 21-ish minutes.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Going on your logic Rick that Karen approved its inclusion (which I will reluctantly agree to ), and seeing that the consensus is it was too weak to be second track in on side A, here's the new running order. All I did was insert it on side B, without touching anything else. This still maintains the 'ebb and flow' of the album I mentioned, and arguably even improves it - because many albums around the same time always had an extra track on side B than side A.

Lovelines
Make Believe It's Your First Time
If I Had You
Makin' Love In The Afternoon
Still Crazy After All These Years

Still In Love With You
All Because Of You
My Body Keeps Changing My Mind
Guess I Just Lost My Head
If We Try
Remember When Lovin' Took All Night

I really like this. In this running order, I could actually keep it in

One other thing I really like? 'Make Believe' ends in the same key as 'If I Had You' starts. It just sounds very classy.

I like this a lot and side 2 clocks in under 25 mins (20:25) with 6 tracks so that would work on an LP. Her album would have had an LP if released in 1980.

Whoever thought putting If I Had You and If We Try so close together on her album was a total miss.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I agree about her mannered pronunciation as the years went on. For some reason it doesn't bother me so much on "All Because of You". The song is such a departure for her overall that I found myself taking the playful journey with her in that case and I think her vocal quality on it is outstanding. Where her mannered singing really bothers me is in some of the later live concert performances. I appreciate changing things up a bit, but at times it didn't seem like interesting choices so much as it was just odd.

While I enjoy All Because of You, I definitely agree that it didn't belong in the position of track #2 on the album.

I also really like All Because of You. I find it a very intimate recording. I also like that it’s so different because usually we hear Karen being accompanied by a piano but this time it’s a guitar and it gives the song an entirely different feel and vibe. Also, I love her vocal fry at the very end.

 

[newvillefan]

I like this a lot and side 2 clocks in under 25 mins (20:25) with 6 tracks so that would work on an LP. Her album would have had an LP if released in 1980.

It's really fun to created a reimagined version of the album. I enjoy threads like this - nothing about the personal lives but just a little diversion into the musical "what ifs".

Whoever thought putting If I Had You and If We Try so close together on her album was a total miss.

Totally agree - and if I might elaborate on why I think that's the case, it's because those two tracks - more than any others on the album - have that lovely 'New York' vibe that I'm really drawn to. So it was silly to sandwich them together.

Had she recorded an entire album of songs of that quality, it really would have been a smash.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Out of curiosity, how long did Phil Ramone know that he was going to be producing Karen’s solo album in advance of the whole project? Was it months because it could at have been yrs?

What I’m trying to get at, it’s no wonder there are only a few strong songs off the album, I mean how much time was spent in really finding stronger songs for her album? Did she just have to settle for some that normally wouldn’t have made it to the final album just because of time constraints? How many songs did she go through to finally settle on these?

 

[JohnFB]

Are these the same interviews as were featured in Rick Henry's online book...

Don't know, haven't read that...likely there is some duplication...I'll try to post some of the more interesting quotes...

 

[newvillefan]

Out of curiosity, how long did Phil Ramone know that he was going to be producing Karen’s solo album in advance of the whole project? Was it months because it could at have been yrs?

It was weeks only - between January 10 and February 16, 1979, Karen's plans were hatched. Here's what's what was going on during that time:

January 10, 1979 - Richard enters rehab (for context only)
January 24, 1979 - "confrontation about album" entry in Karen's diary
February 16, 1979 - Karen's flight to NYC to meet Phil Ramone for album discussions
March 27, 1979 - Karen agrees to contact Steven Levenkron (for context only)
May 1, 1979 - Karen flies to NYC to begin recording sessions
May 2, 1979 - recording sessions get underway
Mid-May - Karen moves into Phil and Itchie's home in Connecticut.

From here, they auditioned songs on the daily drive to NYC and so still listening to demos in the first few weeks at least. That must have meant studio musicians winging it to a degree based on what Karen and Phil came up with.

 

[newvillefan]

Don't know, haven't read that...likely there is some duplication...

It wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

It was weeks only - between January 10 and February 16, 1979, Karen's plans were hatched. Here's what's what was going on during that time:

January 10, 1979 - Richard enters rehab (for context only)
January 24, 1979 - "confrontation about album" entry in Karen's diary
February 16, 1979 - Karen's flight to NYC to meet Phil Ramone for album discussions
March 27, 1979 - Karen agrees to contact Steven Levenkron (for context only)
May 1, 1979 - Karen flies to NYC to begin recording sessions
May 2, 1979 - recording sessions get underway
Mid-May - Karen moves into Phil and Itchie's home in Connecticut.

From here, they auditioned songs on the daily drive to NYC and so still listening to demos in the first few weeks at least. That must have meant studio musicians winging it to a degree based on what Karen and Phil came up with.

Wow, that’s crazy when you think about it. There must have been a rush feeling in getting all the songs together of what would appear on her album. It must have been so different and out of her element. I wonder if one could say Karen’s album was doomed to begin with, it seemed like a rush like she had to get this done before a certain period of time to get it released, Richard’s busy so I only have this much time. That’s a lot of pressure for your first solo album.

As I grow older, I wonder if Phil was the right choice as producer for her solo album. When you listen to all the video Phil made after the album was finally released, he never really tells what kind of album they were seeking to make, pop, rock, country, easy listening, disco. Most of Phil’s remarks are, I wanted to make an album that was NOT the Carpenters and with Karen in a more sexy/mature feel. It always seemed like he just wanted to make an album that was NOT Carpenters. It makes you wonder what her first solo album had been like with a different producer.

 

[newvillefan]

Too many great points to quote here Rick ^^^. A few of my observations:

Was Karen's album rushed? Absolutely.

There is a great analogy here with Frida from ABBA (bear with me non-ABBA fans). As the first member of a huge group to break away, Frida decided in November 1981 to record a solo album and sessions with Phil Collins were already underway by February 1982. A new band - that she wasn't familiar with - rocked up in Stockholm and began recording the album with her over a six week period. She and Phil Collins did exactly what Karen and Phil did...they sifted through hundreds of songs quickly.

Stig Andersson (ABBA's manager) declared on first listen that the album didn't contain one hit single (sound familiar?). Nevertheless, the album went ahead, became a minor success across Europe and spawned a minor hit single on the Billboard Top 100 that hit #16, the same spot as 'Touch Me When We're Dancing'. Otherwise, the singles released from the album disappeared without a trace in every single territory.

Phil Ramone was hugely in demand at the time, which I think was why Karen's recording sessions were a logistical nightmare - he and Karen had to record at very late hours of the night, and she was flying back and forward across the US. In Karen's state this wasn't ever going to do her any good.

As I grow older, I too wonder if Phil was the right producer as well. Yes, he loved her and wanted to protect her, but someone like Barry Gibb would have been infinitely better. He wasn't so rogue, he understood the familial harmony thing and the challenges on family groups growing up in the spotlight. Ironically he met Karen in 1979, right when she was in the middle of her solo sessions. A missed opportunity? I think so. Right place, wrong time.

 

[Nemily]

^^Also one thought to consider is there was a cultural shift going on in in New York in 1979. It may not have been foreshadowed in early ’79, but Disco was out by the end of the year. Top trends at the end of the year were Funk ( i.e. Ladies Night produced by Eumir Deodato), some easy listening and ironically, Rock With You.

I think if Karen had said yes to Rod Temperton’s Rock With You, her album may have had a much better chance of being released even with a Disco flavor. I mean, the powers to be wouldn’t have said no to having three solid ready releases, right?

Also noting, YES on the endless possibilities of Barry Gibb as a producer!!

 

[newvillefan]

Barry Gibb would have been infinitely better. He wasn't so rogue, he understood the familial harmony thing and the challenges on family groups growing up in the spotlight.

YES on the endless possibilities of Barry Gibb as a producer!!

I have to say, I do think the thought of this would have terrified Richard even more than the prospect of a Phil Ramone-produced album. This is where Karen should have gone as a solo artist in 1979.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Too many great points to quote here Rick ^^^. A few of my observations:

Was Karen's album rushed? Absolutely.

There is a great analogy here with Frida from ABBA (bear with me non-ABBA fans). As the first member of a huge group to break away, Frida decided in November 1981 to record a solo album and sessions with Phil Collins were already underway by February 1982. A new band - that she wasn't familiar with - rocked up in Stockholm and began recording the album with her over a six week period. She and Phil Collins did exactly what Karen and Phil did...they sifted through hundreds of songs quickly.

Stig Andersson (ABBA's manager) declared on first listen that the album didn't contain one hit single (sound familiar?). Nevertheless, the album went ahead, became a minor success across Europe and spawned a minor hit single on the Billboard Top 100 that hit #16, the same spot as 'Touch Me When We're Dancing'. Otherwise, the singles released from the album disappeared without a trace in every single territory.

Phil Ramone was hugely in demand at the time, which I think was why Karen's recording sessions were a logistical nightmare - he and Karen had to record at very late hours of the night, and she was flying back and forward across the US. In Karen's state this wasn't ever going to do her any good.

As I grow older, I too wonder if Phil was the right producer as well. Yes, he loved her and wanted to protect her, but someone like Barry Gibb would have been infinitely better. He wasn't so rogue, he understood the familial harmony thing and the challenges on family groups growing up in the spotlight. Ironically he met Karen in 1979, right when she was in the middle of her solo sessions. A missed opportunity? I think so. Right place, wrong time.

That is a great analogy. I bought Frida’s solo album, a quite striking cover. I love the hit, I Know There’s Something Going On. It’s really a hard edged song more so than any of Karen’s tracks. It works well with Frida’s voice. I would imagine Karen’s album would fair just as well as Frida’s did. Not a huge hit but faired well for a first.

Karen needed a really strong duet to help her like Rest Your Love On Me or I Can’t Help It like Olivia had with Andy. (Of which came out about this same time) Something written by Barry with a great duet partner, that would have really helped her record sales. Something the record label couldn’t say no to.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Can you imagine Karen with an album cover like Frida’s? A&M would have took one look and said we don’t need to hear the songs, it’s a NO. Lol

But seriously Karen could have pulled off a cover like that very striking and people would say who is that?

 

[JohnFB]

...

As I grow older, I too wonder if Phil was the right producer as well. Yes, he loved her and wanted to protect her, but someone like Barry Gibb would have been infinitely better. He wasn't so rogue, he understood the familial harmony thing and the challenges on family groups growing up in the spotlight.

Maybe, but Bob James would probably have been better - I'm not sure what all he contributed to the Solo Album sessions - Phil's idea originally was to have him serve as a senior advisor/mentor for her during the recordings (according to O'Brien) - he had a long, distinguished background in jazz/smooth jazz/ fusion jazz including working with a lot of singers (he was an accompanist for the great Sarah Vaughn for awhile!) - but the hard, cold truth is that nobody would have made much difference - Karen was a shadow of herself vocally, was choosing her own songs (for good or Bad) and determined to sing in a new, sexier way - whatever the success of an album produced by someone else she had guaranteed through her mis-treatment of herself healthwise that there would never be another one.

 

[Jack A.]

Agreed, and it's one of the things that annoys me about her singing in live concerts. In an attempt to not sound completely like the record, she twisted some of her pronunciations to be - more stylized, I guess - but it just didn't fit. I know Richard has commented on her "O" pronunciation to mimic Matt Monro, so he surely noticed.

I’m not a fan of that, either. And beyond just timing, she also changed up a lot of timings, or holding out certain notes longer than they should have been. Frank Sinatra was notorious for purposely going off-time on his vocals frequently - maybe Karen liked that style and wanted to adopt it herself?

But, she never did it on the record, which leads me to believe that she likely just did it to keep herself from going crazy, singing the same thing over and over. But either way, that’s why I’m also not really a fan of her live vocal performances.