Karen Carpenter Solo Sessions - Continued

[Vinylalbumcovers]

This could have been part of the problem with the quality of her vocal performance during these sessions...combined with the aging and malnutrition deleterious effects. Acting together they probably created a really difficult challenge for even her phenomenal singing abilities...she was no longer down deep in her basement mining gold...

The "in the basement" thing is a Richard construct. Phil and she likely didn't want to do that. Even so, she's hitting an E#3 repeatedly in "If We Try" - not totally her lowest (I think D#3 on "Only Yesterday" is her lowest just going off memory) but that's pretty good for a female vocalist. She didn't stay there and really, why should she have? She did a ton of that with Richard. This wasn't a Richard project; this was Karen. This was her chance to do different things and I think going higher was one of the differences. She still could do it; she just chose not to. Still won't go with you on the "deteriorating voice" hypothesis - no matter how often you post it.

Ed

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

New York style drumming is very aggressive - we play a little bit ahead of the beat. - Liberty Devitto

Is this why the tempo is off on her version of the ending of Make Believe”?

 

[JohnFB]

The "in the basement" thing is a Richard construct. Phil and she likely didn't want to do that. Even so, she's hitting an E#3 repeatedly in "If We Try" - not totally her lowest (I think D#3 on "Only Yesterday" is her lowest just going off memory) but that's pretty good for a female vocalist. She didn't stay there and really, why should she have? She did a ton of that with Richard. This wasn't a Richard project; this was Karen. This was her chance to do different things and I think going higher was one of the differences. She still could do it; she just chose not to. Still won't go with you on the "deteriorating voice" hypothesis - no matter how often you post it.

Ed

Well, I'll defend your right to your opinion - no matter how " misguided" it might be...

Seriously, take the natural aging process, add the better part of a decade of a severe lack of nourishment, and top off with a strong, long-standing aversion to vocal training & practice, and what could be the likely outcome?

And as far as that basement thing goes that money deal down there was one of the most beautiful sounds in the musical universe - why come upstairs where even she never liked her voice that much, going way back to when she was a teen - until Richard randomly dropped the key to a song they were working on and a miracle of sorts happened...

Staying in the basement - singing predominately in her lower register - was a "Karen thing" ( not a Carpenter or Richard thing) and it was glorious - so why not bring it along to New York? Now, if she only had had some really good songs to use it on...

Maybe you'll agree with me when I say what I've said before - that her first solo album should have been recordings of the best songs from the Great American Songbook, which I think she was born to sing (as she demonstrated in that great duet with Ella). That she never got a chance to record that album is one of the worst tragedies of her story...the unfulfilled promise of that brings a deep sadness to my mind and a little moisture to my old eyes.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Well, I'll defend your right to your opinion - no matter how " misguided" it might be...

Seriously, take the natural aging process, add the better part of a decade of a severe lack of nourishment, and top off with a strong, long-standing aversion to vocal training & practice, and what could be the likely outcome?

John, she was 29 . What "aging process"? I'm with you on the lack of nourishment thing all day. She was abusing herself and that's well known. I'm just saying that I don't hear the damaged voice you hear. Is it quiet? Yeah, but it was for years prior. That's just how she sang. She let the mic do the work. As for aversion to vocal training, I got news for you: there are a lot...like a lot of singers who haven't had five seconds worth of vocal training. Not a good idea, to be sure, but there are maaaaaaany. This wasn't unique to Karen in any way.

And as far as that basement thing goes that money deal down there was one of the most beautiful sounds in the musical universe - why come upstairs where even she never liked her voice that much, going way back to when she was a teen - until Richard randomly dropped the key to a song they were working on and a miracle of sorts happened...

She did sound nice down there, I agree. I contend that she sounded nice...pretty much anywhere she wanted to sound nice. She was just that good. She didn't need to rely on the lower register. On her solo album, she decided not to.

Staying in the basement - singing predominately in her lower register - was a "Karen thing" ( not a Carpenter or Richard thing) and it was glorious - so why not bring it along to New York? Now, if she only had had some really good songs to use it on...

You just said that "Richard randomly dropped the key to a song they were working on and a miracle of sorts happened". Richard discovered it and rode it until the cows came home. Phil's and her aim on the solo record was to do things differently - to not sound like Carpenters. One of the things that largely vanished was the reliance on the lower register. She still had it; they just didn't use it.

Maybe you'll agree with me when I say what I've said before - that her first solo album should have been recordings of the best songs from the Great American Songbook, which I think she was born to sing (as she demonstrated in that great duet with Ella). That she never got a chance to record that album is one of the worst tragedies of her story...the unfulfilled promise of that brings a deep sadness to my mind and a little moisture to my old eyes.

She certainly could have done that. Again, Carpenters were cold commercially and she had nothing to lose. Still, the landscape was different then than it is now. Back then, nobody did that, really. It wasn't a thing yet. These days, artists past their prime will record Great American Songbook albums to rekindle interest in their careers. Doing that then would have doomed her to the cut-out bins. She wanted to be a viable Pop artist so she decided to make a Pop-ish album. Surely, A&M never would have gone for a Great American Songbook album as her first solo record. They, too, wanted her to be viable Pop act and wanted hits - hence the reason the record didn't come out. A&M didn't believe the album had any of those.

Ed

 

[newvillefan]

New York style drumming is very aggressive - we play a little bit ahead of the beat. - Liberty Devitto

Is this why the tempo is off on her version of the ending of Make Believe”?

Where I hear it going off tempo is once the drums have stopped and it's just Karen and piano. From 2m40s on. Drives me insane, always has.

 

[newvillefan]

John, she was 29 . What "aging process"? I'm with you on the lack of nourishment thing all day. She was abusing herself and that's well known. I'm just saying that I don't hear the damaged voice you hear. Is it quiet? Yeah, but it was for years prior. That's just how she sang. She let the mic do the work.

She sounded great on the solo album. Her lower vocals on 'Lovelines', acrobatics on 'If I Had You' and background vocals on 'Remember When Lovin' Took All Night' are testimony to that. I hear none of the vocal degradation that's been mentioned.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

BTW, I'm about to do something. What do we think?

Ed

P.S: Maybe you have another song in mind. If so, say so. A video is in the offing...

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

She sounded great on the solo album. Her lower vocals on 'Lovelines', acrobatics on 'If I Had You' and background vocals on 'Remember When Lovin' Took All Night' are testimony to that. I hear none of the vocal degradation that's been mentioned.

It did finally happen, to be fair. I just don't hear it on her solo album. On "Now", it's impossible to miss. I can't listen to that song and that's the main reason why. Too sad...

Ed

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Where I hear it going off tempo is once the drums have stopped and it's just Karen and piano. From 2m40s on. Drives me insane, always has.

It bothers me too, could they not hear that on final playback? She comes in too soon. Or is the piano too late? Something is off. Was the piano recorded after her vocals were laid down? The song would be perfect for me if it wasn’t for that one spot.

 

[Harry]

It bothers me too, could they not hear that on final playback? She comes in too soon. Or is the piano too late? Something is off. Was the piano recorded after her vocals were laid down? The song would be perfect for me if it wasn’t for that one spot.

Sorry, I don't agree with anything about the timing on "Make Believe It's Your First Time". The percussion cuts out and it's just the piano and Karen. At that point Karen's vocal IS THE LEAD instrument. The piano, as it should, follows her. This is goosebump territory supreme!

 

[newvillefan]

It did finally happen, to be fair. I just don't hear it on her solo album. On "Now", it's impossible to miss. I can't listen to that song and that's the main reason why. Too sad...

Ed

Sorry Ed, yes that's what I meant. Yes it happened eventually but not in 1979.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Maybe I’m just to use to VOTH version where there is no trailing piano. IDK.

It feels like she’s rushing “it’s mine” emphasis on mine vs Carpenters version where is holds it a bit longer. Maybe that’s it.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Sorry, I don't agree with anything about the timing on "Make Believe It's Your First Time". The percussion cuts out and it's just the piano and Karen. At that point Karen's vocal IS THE LEAD instrument. The piano, as it should follows her. This is goosebump territory supreme!

I agree totally. Karen is leading. Bob and the band were following where she went. I just now listened again and it’s just stunning. It’s not the first single but it should have been one of them. I love that Bob just serves the song. He could have done so much more but he just accentuates the tune and Karen. They all do. This very much flies in the face of any vocal impairment. This is just spine tingling.

Ed

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Sorry Ed, yes that's what I meant. Yes it happened eventually but not in 1979.

By and large, New York sessions guys didn’t play to a click. They were much more “fly by the seat of your pants” and letting things happen organically. The LA players did do the click thing and were more choreographed - not all of them but that was always the LA session aesthetic. You’re picking up on that difference. I notice it; I just think it’s a virtue.

Ed

 

[newvillefan]

Intriguing! When you ask if we have another song in mind, which side do you mean? I think both are more B-side material than A-side. The perfect singles for me would have been (dug up from an old thread):

May 1980
Single #1: If I Had You
B-side: If We Try
Comment: Lead Single

August 1980
Single #2: My Body Keeps Changing My Mind
B-side: All Because Of You
Comment: Great summer single!

November 1980
Single #3: Make Believe It's Your First Time
B-side: Lovelines
Comment: Reflective autumn/winter single

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Intriguing! When you ask if we have another song in mind, which side do you mean? I think both are more B-side material than A-side. The perfect singles for me would have been (dug up from an old thread):

May 1980
Single #1: If I Had You
B-side: If We Try
Comment: Lead Single

August 1980
Single #2: My Body Keeps Changing My Mind
B-side: All Because Of You
Comment: Great summer single!

November 1980
Single #3: Make Believe It's Your First Time
B-side: Lovelines
Comment: Reflective autumn/winter single

No way, you used “All Because of You” I knew you liked it and worthy of a b side? Lol

I don’t think the 1st single should have 2 strong tracks.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Intriguing! When you ask if we have another song in mind, which side do you mean? I think both are more B-side material than A-side. The perfect singles for me would have been (dug up from an old thread):

May 1980
Single #1: If I Had You
B-side: If We Try
Comment: Lead Single

August 1980
Single #2: My Body Keeps Changing My Mind
B-side: All Because Of You
Comment: Great summer single!

November 1980
Single #3: Make Believe It's Your First Time
B-side: Lovelines
Comment: Reflective autumn/winter single

About to cover one in my “Slept On” series. . Wanted something un-Carpenters. I like “If I Had You” more for what Rod did with it than for the song itself. Without Rod’s vocal arrangements, it’s fine but not spectacular IMHO. The other two could be fun to cover too. Body is fun and Make Believe is a real stunner.

Ed

 

[JohnFB]

More (final?) quotes from LEAD SISTER:

The whole thing was so bitter-sweet, a rollercoaster of emotions. I felt bad for Karen, because she put her heart and soul into this. And her money. She liked it. So, to have her opinions and desires squashed was very hard to watch. - Russell Jovors

Karen didn't drink. She didn't eat either. I remember hugging her and feeling, like, nothing but a sack of bones. I hate to say it that way because she was so beautiful. - Liberty Devitto

I think she fell in love with the bandand everything we were doing. - Liberty Devitto

She was so funny. I actually fell in love with her. If I wasn't married I'd have ask her to marry me. I thought she was a beautiful person - looks, voice, everything about her. The whole package. - Liberty Devitto

We had a very loving, fun relationship. Tom Bahler

And especially for Ed:

One night they [Tom & Karen] were listening to Minnie Ripperton's hit song "Loving You" in his car [Minnie with the 4 octave range] and suddenly Karen was singing right up there with Ripperton's impossibly high whistle register...

"Holy moly! What is it with you?" - Tom

"I've got a real large range." - Karen

" But you sing low on your records." - Tom

"Well, here's the deal. I studied up on every really popular woman singer and they all sang in the basement. So, that's where I concentrated." - Karen

 

[newvillefan]

I don’t think the 1st single should have 2 strong tracks.

I think it should, precisely because it's the first single and would have been such a key release for Karen, A&M, and indeed, Carpenters.

No way, you used “All Because of You” I knew you liked it and worthy of a b side? Lol

It's perfect for the B-side, because that's all it was worthy of!

 

[newvillefan]

No way, you used “All Because of You” I knew you liked it and worthy of a b side? Lol

I don’t think the 1st single should have 2 strong tracks.

I think it should, precisely because it's the first single and would have been such a key release for Karen, A&M, and indeed, Carpenters.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I think it should, precisely because it's the first single and would have been such a key release for Karen, A&M, and indeed, Carpenters.



It's perfect for the B-side, because that's all it was worthy of!

I definitely would have bought multiple copies of all the singles.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

And especially for Ed:

One night they [Tom & Karen] were listening to Minnie Ripperton's hit song "Loving You" in his car [Minnie with the 4 octave range] and suddenly Karen was singing right up there with Ripperton's impossibly high whistle register...

"Holy moly! What is it with you?" - Tom

"I've got a real large range." - Karen

" But you sing low on your records." - Tom

"Well, here's the deal. I studied up on every really popular woman singer and they all sang in the basement. So, that's where I concentrated." - Karen

Happy to be wrong. . Amazing to think she had a whistle register. Never knew that. Would love to have heard that.

Ed

 

[newvillefan]

One night they [Tom & Karen] were listening to Minnie Ripperton's hit song "Loving You" in his car [Minnie with the 4 octave range] and suddenly Karen was singing right up there with Ripperton's impossibly high whistle register...

This was alluded to in the Coleman book, but we finally get to hear the song she was actually singing in the car. Great to find this out. That's a really high note (F#6), but, incredibly, I *think* Karen is still two notes above that on her highest note ever recorded to tape - 3m57 on 'B'Wana She No Home'.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

This was alluded to in the Coleman book, but we finally get to hear the song she was actually singing in the car. Great to find this out. That's a really high note, but, incredibly, Karen is still two notes above that on her highest note ever recorded to tape - 3m57 on 'B'Wana She No Home'.

I need to hear that again. I missed it somehow. Wow!

Ed

 

[newvillefan]

I need to hear that again. I missed it somehow. Wow!

I've edited my post above because I'm sure it is above, not from the octave below - I could be wrong. Either way, if Karen did reach that note just sitting in the car - wow.