I was today years old when I learned that we almost wound up with A&M/TayCo Sound:
CTi almost....wasn't...CTi
- Thread starter Michael Hagerty
- Start date
I'm confused. Is what 31, or 365?
It's a phrase the kids (you know, people under 40) are using on Twitter.
Or should I be saying "the Twitter" at this age?
If it were "today days old", that'd be 24,391 days....and....yikes.
So how, about that A&M/Tayco Sound series of jazz albums, huh?
By the way, that $1 million guarantee for Creed is $8.9 million in today's money---not bad for a three-year deal. Given how few of the A&M/CTi albums were serious sellers (and how ugly things were looking at A&M in 1969 and early 1970) it's not surprising that Jerry wasn't in the mood to renew.
From what I've read, also, Taylor wanted a little more freedom than what Moss was comfortable with, and that also would not have sat well with maintaining sales figures. Kind of ironic, though, that once Taylor left A&M's umbrella, the label saw more success, especially artistically. Despite that, Taylor did have to sell off CTI due to some financial mismanagement, though, selling Kudu to Motown and Columbia eventually taking the rest.
Yeah---it's hard to picture RED CLAY as an A&M release. On the other hand, A&M had a jazz appetite (Horizon) that it could never quite make work on its own.
But jazz is a tricky prospect commercially. If we can trust online RIAA figures (and I know all the yeah, buts that go with that):
The only Wes Montgomery album to go Gold was A DAY IN THE LIFE, and it took almost two years to go Gold.
All of George Benson's Gold and Platinum albums were from his run at Warner Bros.
Quincy Jones didn't go Gold until BODY HEAT, ROOTS, SOUNDS...AND STUFF LIKE THAT and THE DUDE, and I'm not sure any of those are really jazz. They're Quincy's own thing.
From what I can tell from the RIAA site, if we can agree that Kenny G doesn't count, the best-selling jazz album in history is Miles Davis' KIND OF BLUE. It took 34 years to go Gold. It's done most of its business in the last 30 years, and now stands at 5X Platinum.
JOv2
Well-Known Member
Well, that was a heck of a deal for Creed.
I'm confident A&M didn't earn much on that one...Jerry was probably banking on Creed identifying new commercially-viable talent similar to his successes at Verve (e.g., Bobo, Tjader, et al). One thing for sure: for that deal to go through Creed had to guarantee Wes.
The irony is that if Taylor had stayed with A&M, and he had been given complete freedom to do what he wanted, the investment A&M made would have paid off. I think part of the problem is that CTI really didn't get its permanent footing A&R-wise until its last couple of A&M albums, one of which wasn't released worldwide until decades later (Stonebone, which was clearly in the post-A&M style).
His initial albums for the independent CTI were very similar--fewer but longer tracks on the record. The first year or two of CTI at A&M seemed like Taylor was poking at different styles to see what would work. There were the two vocal albums and an MOR album that were all a failure, and most of the albums favored three-minute songs over letting the jazz artists stretch out as they normally would on a true jazz label.
A further irony is that once CTI went independent, the artist roster grew substantially--right away, there were albums from Stanley Turrentine, Hubert Laws (who finally got an album of his own after recording on numerous A&M/CTI albums), Freddie Hubbard, Joe Farrell, Bill Evans (albeit only a single album). You would think A&M's deeper pockets would have given Taylor freedom to sign these artists, but it's almost as though there was a "binge" of signing the most important artists early on (save for Quincy Jones) and that was the end of it.
That's a key to it also, I'm thinking. A&M might have been banking on a Verve-like spinoff label, but Taylor might have outgrown that formula once he arrived at A&M and felt the need to move on.
His initial albums for the independent CTI were very similar--fewer but longer tracks on the record. The first year or two of CTI at A&M seemed like Taylor was poking at different styles to see what would work. There were the two vocal albums and an MOR album that were all a failure, and most of the albums favored three-minute songs over letting the jazz artists stretch out as they normally would on a true jazz label.
A further irony is that once CTI went independent, the artist roster grew substantially--right away, there were albums from Stanley Turrentine, Hubert Laws (who finally got an album of his own after recording on numerous A&M/CTI albums), Freddie Hubbard, Joe Farrell, Bill Evans (albeit only a single album). You would think A&M's deeper pockets would have given Taylor freedom to sign these artists, but it's almost as though there was a "binge" of signing the most important artists early on (save for Quincy Jones) and that was the end of it.
That's a key to it also, I'm thinking. A&M might have been banking on a Verve-like spinoff label, but Taylor might have outgrown that formula once he arrived at A&M and felt the need to move on.
This is a Creed Taylor interview from JazzWax. In his own words, Taylor hints at why he took CTI independent.
JW: When you joined A&M in 1966, setting up CTI was part of your original deal, yes?
CT: That's right.
JW: When did you decide to leave?
CT: In late 1968. Herb Alpert was a really nice guy. He was a stylistic
trumpet player, and his Tijuana Brass made A&M a huge success. But he also liked jazz a little too much, perhaps. He made suggestions to me about arrangements. It was a subtle thing, and I saw conflict in artistic direction looming.
JW: How so?
CT: If you get too connected with another person in your own area of artistic achievement, you risk falling for that person's suggestions. One day I woke up and it hit me. I realized that I had to leave A&M. I thought I should be listening carefully to other aesthetics.
JW: Herb loved jazz?
CT: Herb loved Paul Desmond, Wes Montgomery and other artists I was producing. But I could sense through his suggestions that he had a different creative vision for them. And I started to feel myself becoming obligated to incorporate his suggestions. His recommendations were taking my sensibilities in the wrong direction. I knew I had to set up a record company on my own to accomplish what I had in mind.
JW: How was the parting?
CT: Completely amicable.
JW: Did you need a new office?
CT: I already had my own office separate from A&M's offices, and I didn't change my location at Rockefeller Center. Early on, the deal was that A&M would handle the distribution and everything else. After an album package was complete, I would just send it over to them, and they took it from there. I wasn't involved in the marketing in the beginning, but I did a lot of radio promotion.
JW: Were you scared going out on your own?
CT: No.
JW: Why not?
CT: No one was doing what I was doing, so I didn't have any real competition to worry about. And A&M was handling all the back-end work.
JW: In the late 1960s, what did you sense was changing in the music industry and jazz marketplace? What opportunity did you see?
CT: I saw that there was room for jazz that didn't completely ignore other successful types of music of the time that had merit. I liked what Blue Note Records had been doing in this space earlier in the 1960s. Lee Morgan's Sidewinder, for example, made a lot of noise. So did Jimmy Smith's Back at the Chicken Shack. Blue Note had placed one foot in R&B and one foot in improvised contemporary jazz.
Yeah. And delivering Antonio Carlos Jobim at that moment probably looked really good to Herb & Jerry too.
I'm thinking that the deal may have been structured so that Creed got a million bucks from A&M and he had to use that money to deliver an agreed-upon number of albums (30?) in three years. There wouldn't be any additional A&M money, apart from its promotion and distribution resources.
That being the case, especially when Wes, Antonio, Herbie Mann and Nat Adderley didn't blow the roof off in year one, he may have throttled back.
This makes sense. But I'm also betting that Jerry didn't try to convince him to stay, and if Herb felt his input was being ignored, he probably didn't, either.
That would be my thought also, seeing that they had two different visions for CTI, and the albums weren't exactly flying off the shelves.
JOv2
Well-Known Member
Man, there's a lot to ponder...
If Creed's late '68 date is correct, Jerry didn't give the first batch of CTi LPs a chance, or he simply had unrealistic sales expectations... I'm not sure what the recording-to-release interim period was, but Benson and Desmond didn't even get their first sessions in the can until OCT68 and DEC68 respectively -- so these all the more wouldn't have been issued until '69. For Creed to already be making plans devoid of these sessions is telling.
'67/'68 were peak busy years for the TJB; so, I'd wager this was largely Jerry's concern and that he probably asked Herb to step in, artist-to-artist, and "say a few words to help the project..." (...reach Jerry's sales expectations). This scenario surely supports the early and unexplained arrivals of two non-jazz LPs -- Barbary (3010) and Jones (3011) -- in back-to-back fashion and which were cut, MAR--SEP 68. These two LPs would have then carried a do-or-die significance: had they scored (and sold at least 10,000 units or so each, I'm guessing) things may have turned out differently at that time. This also fits the first-wave timeline and Michael's "throttling back" idea.
I think Jerry got used to all those A&M MOR pop LPs during the SP 4108--4137 golden period of always cracking the top 200. There were really no duds. Then along come these CTi LPs that can't even move 3,000 or so units...
If Creed's late '68 date is correct, Jerry didn't give the first batch of CTi LPs a chance, or he simply had unrealistic sales expectations... I'm not sure what the recording-to-release interim period was, but Benson and Desmond didn't even get their first sessions in the can until OCT68 and DEC68 respectively -- so these all the more wouldn't have been issued until '69. For Creed to already be making plans devoid of these sessions is telling.
'67/'68 were peak busy years for the TJB; so, I'd wager this was largely Jerry's concern and that he probably asked Herb to step in, artist-to-artist, and "say a few words to help the project..." (...reach Jerry's sales expectations). This scenario surely supports the early and unexplained arrivals of two non-jazz LPs -- Barbary (3010) and Jones (3011) -- in back-to-back fashion and which were cut, MAR--SEP 68. These two LPs would have then carried a do-or-die significance: had they scored (and sold at least 10,000 units or so each, I'm guessing) things may have turned out differently at that time. This also fits the first-wave timeline and Michael's "throttling back" idea.
I think Jerry got used to all those A&M MOR pop LPs during the SP 4108--4137 golden period of always cracking the top 200. There were really no duds. Then along come these CTi LPs that can't even move 3,000 or so units...
It also shows us how the industry changed from the 50s to the dawn of the 70s. In Mancini's bio, he mentioned that RCA considered a jazz album a good seller if it moved 50,000 copies, as Shorty Rogers regularly did for the label in the 50s.
We'll probably never know the sales figures for the individual albums, but I know A Day in The LIfe was one of the better sellers in the 3000-series catalog (Taylor called it a "bestseller" in the same interview above). But a popular album like this was balanced out with duds, or lesser-known artists that couldn't sell many records. Tamba Trio was very popular in Brazil but despite recording three albums in the US, one of which was shelved (possibly due to poor sales of the earlier records--we'll never know), they probably moved very few records here.
Taylor's insistence on packaging is what sold records as well. Once his independent label was established, he mentioned that people wouldn't come into the record store to ask for the new record from a favorite artist or the newest jazz records, they would ask what was new on CTI. As visually striking as the 3000-series (A&M) records were, I don't know if the packaging really took off with its own identity at that point.
I think part of my own perception of CTI should include the 3000s (on A&M) as part of the complete body of work that continued into the 80s, rather than splitting them pre- and post-A&M. Granted, he did drop a few artists due to contractual reasons when he went independent, but others stuck around (Benson, Desmond, Jobim, etc.), and there is a clear progression in how the label built its sound and reputation starting back in 1966. Stonebone was one the missing links in that arc (it sounds exactly like those early 6000-series CTIs), and Jobim's Tide and Stone Flower (both compiled from the same sessions) also link the pre- and post-A&M eras together.
Bobberman
Well-Known Member
To me to get the whole big picture on The whole CTi History must Include Every period From The A&M years and beyond even the brief 90s revival which included such Artists like Guitarists Larry Coryell and Steve Laury and one relatively unknown artist named Donald Harrison who released an album called "The Power of Cool" just to name a few I found many favorites spanning the 60s A&M period the 70s and 80s independent and Columbia years respectively and the 90s which I think were distributed by Polygram ( I may be incorrect) nevertheless there is a lot music there to enjoy.
Well, Creed says late '68 is when it became clear to him that he needed to move on---that would still be a year or so before there'd likely be any talk about a renewal of the deal.
That said, I think your theory that Jerry, at that point, would have preferred Herb to step in, artist-to-artist, to try to right the ship, is probably spot on.
I hadn't fully realized the hot streak that you mention (SP 4108-4137). I think everybody here knows I have a high bar for use of the word "hit", but if we just deal with cracking the Top 200 album list (a pretty low bar), the only A&M artists who couldn't do that in that period were Claudine Longet (CLAUDINE) and Chris Montez (FOOLIN' AROUND).
So, yeah, when you pay a million bucks and in the first two years, the only albums that even make the chart are A DAY IN THE LIFE (which made #13, so A&M was probably expecting great things going forward), WAVE (#114---oops), DOWN HERE ON THE GROUND (#38), ROAD SONG (#94), TELL IT LIKE IT IS (#145) and WALKING IN SPACE (#56), and at the same time your core artists are having their worst year ever, that's ugly.
I will do something more with the CTI catalog in the future, but here are two obscurities. (A bit of a spoiler from an article series I've been working on elsewhere.)
CTI had a small number of subsidiary labels. Kudu Records was Taylor's spinoff label which focused on "soul jazz" or in other words, the records relied less on improvisation and more on rhythm, groove, and repeated riffs.
Taylor had spun off another label in 1972 called Salvation Records that was to feature gospel music, but the run of five albums included only one gospel recording by the B. C. & M. Choir, the title track "Hellos Sunshine" featured below. The label sat dormant for two years until it was revived for four jazz and R&B albums. As a bit of irony, the B. C. & M. Choir had previously recorded for a label named Creed. 😁
There was also a 1974 label called Three Brothers Records, with an even smaller album catalog than Salvation. The "three brothers" were Creed Taylor's sons Blake, John, and Creed Jr. Lightning didn't exactly strike with the lone LP released by the label--Lou Christie. The only other group releasing 45 RPM singles was The Clams, produced by Tony Levin (which I would presume was the now-renowned bass player). I will just mention that the "clams" here are not of the seafood variety, as you'll hear below. (You've been warned.) Creed Taylor produced none of those releases. Three Brothers rose from the ashes for a 3-cassette compilation box set in 1983 (Classical Jazz), each tape highlighting a particular instrument playing songs based on classical themes, all pulled from the CTI catalog. And there was one final album release in 1994 CD by Duke Jones, Thunder Island, produced by Taylor.
CTI had a small number of subsidiary labels. Kudu Records was Taylor's spinoff label which focused on "soul jazz" or in other words, the records relied less on improvisation and more on rhythm, groove, and repeated riffs.
Taylor had spun off another label in 1972 called Salvation Records that was to feature gospel music, but the run of five albums included only one gospel recording by the B. C. & M. Choir, the title track "Hellos Sunshine" featured below. The label sat dormant for two years until it was revived for four jazz and R&B albums. As a bit of irony, the B. C. & M. Choir had previously recorded for a label named Creed. 😁
There was also a 1974 label called Three Brothers Records, with an even smaller album catalog than Salvation. The "three brothers" were Creed Taylor's sons Blake, John, and Creed Jr. Lightning didn't exactly strike with the lone LP released by the label--Lou Christie. The only other group releasing 45 RPM singles was The Clams, produced by Tony Levin (which I would presume was the now-renowned bass player). I will just mention that the "clams" here are not of the seafood variety, as you'll hear below. (You've been warned.) Creed Taylor produced none of those releases. Three Brothers rose from the ashes for a 3-cassette compilation box set in 1983 (Classical Jazz), each tape highlighting a particular instrument playing songs based on classical themes, all pulled from the CTI catalog. And there was one final album release in 1994 CD by Duke Jones, Thunder Island, produced by Taylor.
Are those the positions on the pop chart, or on the jazz chart? Some of the CTI albums (6000 series, plus Kudu Records) I believe might have also placed on the R&B chart back then. I know Esther Phillips had a dance club hit with "What A Diff'rence A Day Makes."
This. I really was drawn to the A&M/CTi albums. At age 11, this just flipped switches in my brain as far as photography, layout and typography (not to mention irony (icicles on SUMMERTIME and later, the flame-belching refinery smokestack on BEYOND THE BLUE HORIZON).
...and everyone I've ever met who felt the same way is reading this right now.
It just didn't matter to the mass public. In fact, I remember people at the time being put off by the A DAY IN THE LIFE cover. "Why am I looking at a close-up of an ashtray?"
Pop. The Billboard 200.
Well, I did my part. Both Lou Christie's "Beyond the Blue Horizon" and The Clams' "Close to You" got airplay on KIBS in Bishop.
I still like the Lou Christie.
The Clams...well, hey, a little latter-day Spike Jones never hurt anyone (and guaranteed them play on Dr. Demento).
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