German Christmas Portrait CD

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Not sure if this has been asked before. Could there have ever been a LP of Christmas Portrait ever pressed to be the exact replica of the German CD? Since Lp's came out long before Cd's. Do you think it is possible to find a Christmas Portrait LP that could contain Ave Maria without the choir?

If one did find a Christmas Portrait Lp that had this would the back cover had to have the German numberings at the bottom cover.

I guess to answer this you would have to know whether Germany ever pressed any Lp's along side the Cd's that they pressed, right?

...who put up his Christmas tree this weekend, online...

 

[Rudy]

Do you have the original US LP? I think the German CD was identical. Harry would know--I think he has that CD.

 

[Harry]

The German CD should be identical to the US LP. So there is no choir on either version of "Ave Maria".

From what I understand, when A&M Germany went to press the CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT CD, they used the original LP master, unbeknownst to Richard or A&M in general. Once discovered, it was quickly halted and replaced with the longer CD Special Edition.

I can't imagine that there's be any or much difference between an original German LP and a US LP, other than the differences that might occur from differing grades of vinyl, whether the US version was closer to the original master tapes whereas Germany might have a generation later, and any other variations one gets with vinyl pressings. As far as I know, all LPs were sourced from the same recordings, and thus "Ave Maria" would have no choir.

Harry
...whose US LP certainly has no choir on "Ave Maria", online...

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

The German CD should be identical to the US LP. So there is no choir on either version of "Ave Maria"

One of these years, I will remember this. (Looking for emoticon that smacks hand on his forehead) I think I need to get out of my head that there is something extra special about owning the German CD. Other than being presented on a digital format for the first time, it's pretty much the same as the original LP I guess right?

I can't imagine that there's be any or much difference between an original German LP and a US LP, other than the differences that might occur from differing grades of vinyl, whether the US version was closer to the original master tapes whereas Germany might have a generation later, and any other variations one gets with vinyl pressings. As far as I know, all LPs were sourced from the same recordings, and thus "Ave Maria" would have no choir.

Still I've never seen a German C.P. LP, has anyone? I wonder if they even exist. I'm sure mine is a US LP numbered A&M SP-3210

On another note...Would there have been 1st pressing & 2nd pressing of the US C.P. LP?

 

[Rudy]

Well, yes...you can't have LPs without a first pressing! I would guess that since it was such a holiday favorite, it probably had a couple of pressing runs.

I wonder, though...does the 2-CD Christmas Collection have the choir on "Ave Maria"?

 

[Chris May]

I personally own a copy of the German CD and have found this to be an identical copy of the U.S. LP version. It is the only way to my knowledge to obtain all of the original mixes on CD in their entirety. -Chris

 

[andywithaz]

I wonder, though...does the 2-CD Christmas Collection have the choir on "Ave Maria"?

No, sorry Rudy. All CD versions post Germany 1984 have the choir.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I just thought of something, on the DVD video, of Ave Marie, is the choir on that? I need to check that out, cause it is just Richard & Karen with candels glowing all around so it would seem weird to hear a choir, when there isn't one there, but I can't remember if it's on the DVD.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Ok I just went & played the DVd & the choir is there. The problem I have with the choir on this track is it sorta tends to drown Karen out vocally in some spots & that is not a good thing.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I was thinking it would be cool to make a cdr from the German Christmas Portrait Cd & replace MCD with the single version (taken "From The Top") that way it is still all from a digital format. Then it would almost be the perfect Christmas Portrait CD.



I may do that & tack on Santa Claus is Coming to Town (single mono version) at the end as a bonus track.

...getting excited about this Cd possibility, online...

 

[Harry]

I tend to agree, though Richard has explained time and again that in his vision of the song's arrangement, the choir was SUPPOSED to be there all along, though the choral parts somehow got 'misplaced.' The choir was re-recorded for the CD extended version of CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT, and as has been mentioned here, has been included on every version since then.

The DVD, that Brazilian issue, with "Ave Maria" as a bonus track, includes the choir. That was re-dubbed though, since the original TV special did NOT have the choir.

Harry

 

[Harry]

I was thinking it would be cool to make a cdr from the German Christmas Portrait Cd & replace MCD with the single version (taken "From The Top") that way it is still all from a digital format. Then it would almost be the perfect Christmas Portrait CD.

One could also do the opposite by taking the remixed CD from the CHRISTMAS COLLECTION or the 35th BOX SET, and substitute the rare RE-REMIXED version of "Merry Christams Darling" from the TIME-LIFE set.

I may do that & tack on Santa Claus is Coming to Town (single mono version) at the end as a bonus track.

In my scenario, just grab the remixed version from AN OLD FASHIONED CHRISTMAS and tack it on to have the "perfect?" re-mixed album!



Harry
...zagging when he should be zigging, online...

 

[Rudy]

I wonder, though...does the 2-CD Christmas Collection have the choir on "Ave Maria"?

No, sorry Rudy. All CD versions post Germany 1984 have the choir.

I never really noticed. Even on the LP, that song was an instant "skip" for me.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

One could also do the opposite by taking the remixed CD from the CHRISTMAS COLLECTION or the 35th BOX SET, and substitute the rare RE-REMIXED version of "Merry Christams Darling" from the TIME-LIFE set.

True BUT as much as I like hearing this re-remix of MCD from the Time Life Set, it just is not the original. Nothing beats that original, same goes for Santa Claus single.


Well I just burned my almost perfect Christmas Portrait CD.
I took the original German C.P. CD & replaced MCD with the original single version. But as I indicated it's not perfect. I forgot that most of these tracks segue into one another, so when one song stops, there is a 1 or 2 sec pause for the next track to start giving it a stop start feel (which I'm not crazy about) for example at the end of #2 Overture-O Come All Ye Faithful & then #3 starts Christmas Waltz, there is a slight silent break.I don't think I'm missing any part of the song, just there is a break between some tracks.

BUT OMG when I got to #13 The Original Single Version of MCD started & I heard Karen pronunciate "special" one, I knew this was the single version. WOW this sounds incredible incorporated with the original mixes from the German Christmas Portrait. Also since there is no break between the end of Carol of the Bells & the begining of MCD, the replacement of the original version here is undetected to the listener until Karen is singing that is, then you will tell immediately this is the single version. This is really cool. Since there all tracks taken from CD they all sound great together like this. Oh and the bonus track is cool, wish I could have made it professional so there was a 5 sec pause then Santa Claus single verison starts.

This almost feels like a brand new Christmas compilation I just recvd. ol

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Well tonight after work I started looking around at my Cd burning program & didn't realize there was an option for removing the 2 sec lag between tracks. It's called Record in Disc-at-Once (DAO) mode to eliminate the two-second gap between tracks.

This was exactly what I needed!!! So I threw away the one I made yesterday & spent tonight making a brand new one.

So I now have my Perfect Carpenters Christmas CD.

Took my German Christmas Portrait CD, replaced track #13 with the Original Single Version of MCD taken "From the Top CD"

Burned this and tacked on Track #18 as a Bonus-Santa Claus is Coming to Town-45 Single Version (Mint Condition)

This turned out absolutely perfect, each track now segued right into one another with no breaks, sounds perfect, I can hardly tell that this is not an official released CD.

This is gonna get alot of play from me this holiday season. :santa:

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I'm still puzzled about this Ave Maria without the choir. Something doesn't make sense to me.

On the back of the German Cd it has an * (asterik) next to Ave Maria that says this was Arranged & Orchestrated by Peter Knight. So if Richard says that the German CD was suppose to have the choir but it was left off than I can understand that someone messed up.

But on the Christmas Portrait U.S. LP if you look at the back cover it still has an * next to Ave Maria indicating Peter Knight arranged & orchestrated this song. So how could it have been left off the US LP also? Wasn't the LP released before the German CD? I'm not getting this. If Richard halted the German Cd's from being produced than why was the US LP not halted too?

Since there are way more LP's with this so called glitch than German Cd's produced, why wouldn't Richard have halted the LP's too?

Doesn't it look kinda weird for Peter Knight to be credited as orchestrating a song that doesn't even have a choir to orchestrate?

 

[Murray]

Since there are way more LP's with this so called glitch than German Cd's produced, why wouldn't Richard have halted the LP's too?

There is no "glitch" on the LP. The choir part was recorded, but as Richard has explained, when the time came to mix the album, it was discovered that the choir part for Ave Maria had gone missing. As they were working under a deadline, there simply wasn't time to re-record the choir, so the song was put on the album without it. This was with Richard's approval.

The choir that we hear on the Christmas Portait Special Edition CD version of Ave Maria was recorded years later, and added to the original track. The special edition was supposed to be released worldwide, including Germany. However, someone at A&M in Hollywood sent the wrong master tape to A&M Germany (the original 1978 master tape, not the Special Edition). When Richard discovered the error, he forced the German CD to be withdrawn.

Doesn't it look kinda weird for Peter Knight to be credited as orchestrating a song that doesn't even have a choir to orchestrate?

I never heard of anyone orchestrating a choir . In case you haven't noticed, there IS an orchestra playing on that track!

Murray
NP: Ave Maria (German Christmas Portait CD)

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I never heard of anyone orchestrating a choir . In case you haven't noticed, there IS an orchestra playing on that track!

Murray

I was thinking more in lines of a director, directing a choir, I've seen director(s) who are out front orchestrating a choir, like say for instance a church. I guess I just thought that the credits for Peter Knight was for both the intrumental & the choir. I mean someone has to be over the choir to make the sound correct.

So I guess I understand this a little better now, the choir was not added till Richard went to re-mix the album then. This would have been after Karen passed away I take it? Still seems kinda weird cause there is already so much of the choir on other tracks in the background, why wouldn't it have been on the LP then. Oh well, guess I don't really think about it except once a year when I pull this CD out to play.

...whose been playing C.P. all week long, online..

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Wow so much info in the archives. Thought this was worth repeating.

http://forum.amcorner.com/viewtopic.php?t=2917&highlight=german&sid=f7aa102a3e381139dc1b068c42f5421c

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

I think this is also interesting taken from the liner booklet from the black box set:

Christmas Portrait

Richard says this should have been titled Karen's album. I'm thinking he said that because earlier he states that he was having problems with sleeping pills during that time & therefore did not contribute as much to the album as he would have wanted, gave the reins to Peter Knight & Billy May.

Richard talks about Ave Maria:

The listener will notice that this one album is not as
originally released, as the rest in this set are. "Ave
Maria" was arranged from the start for chorus, as well as
orchestra. With so much music, not to mention people,
around the studio while the album was being made, the
choral parts were misplaced, only to be discovered after the
album was "in the can". The multi-track was retrieved, and
the chorus recorded, in 1984, during the "An Old
Fahioned Christmas" sessions. To all of us involved, it
was a great additon. The song was later remixed (and an
editing error in the lead vocal fixed) in 1990. Some others were
remixed at the same time for inclusion in "From The Top" and
ultimately all except Merry Christmas Darling were remixed for the
Carpenters Christmas Collection 2 Cd set for Japan. (1996) At that time
we discovered, after obtaining both the 2 track master and the tape
copy master of Christmas Portrait from the vault, that both were on an
"improved" series of tape that turned out not to have much of a shelf
life; they were now defective.




So Richard said that Ave Maria was arranged at the start for chorus but with so many people around the studio the choral parts were misplaced & was discovered after the LP "was in the can". So this means that the choir was suppose to be on the US Lp all along. Am I reading that right?

 

[Rudy]

At that time
we discovered, after obtaining both the 2 track master and the tape
copy master of Christmas Portrait from the vault, that both were on an
"improved" series of tape that turned out not to have much of a shelf
life; they were now defective.

Can you say "Ampex Grand Master 456?"

I posted my "perfect" Christmas Portrait track listing last year. I'm not sure if it was here or in our seasonal Christmas forum, so I may have to dig it out of mothballs. I'm trying to remember if I tacked the slow "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" on the disc anywhere. I thought I did...

 

[Rudy]

OK, here's what I originally posted as my track list for the perfect Christmas Portrait...although I, too, would rather have the original versions, it was just easier sonically to use all the tracks from the same 2-CD set (in terms of levels, EQ, etc.). Here 'tis:

I think a lot of you might be interested in what I did with my 2-CD Carpenters Collection though. As you know, there are a lot more "filler" tracks on Old Fashioned Christmas. I clocked it out--on that entire album, KC's singing only appears on 20 minutes, 40 seconds of the album. What I've always wanted to do was combine both albums into one, removing some of the extra fluff while keeping KC's tracks intact. Also, the difficulty comes up when trying to split apart the tracks, as many of them are segued together.

So here is what I came up with. Amazingly, the tracks I wanted to use from Old Fashioned were easy to split out and, coincidentally, the instrumental tracks I chose were ones segued to KC tracks I wanted to keep. And the final result comes out to 77:30, keeping all of the tracks with KC vocals on them. Perfect!! Here's the rundown:

Tracks 1 thru 15 (up through "Christ Is Born") are the original Christmas Portrait album. These tracks from Old Fashioned follow:

He Came For Me
Little Altar Boy
I Heard The Bells On Christmas Day
O Holy Night
No Place Like Home For The Holidays
Do You Hear What I Hear?
My Favorite Things
Santa Claus Is Coming To Town
What Are You Doing New Year's Eve?

Then from this point, we finish up with the last two Christmas Portrait tracks...the Winter Wonderland medley, followed by Ave Maria. These seemed like the best ending to a "Christmas Program", and I couldn't see ending the disc any other way. You'll notice that the earlier tracks I used are more secular, so they're together in one group. And I like the New Year's song close to the end of the program.

It only took me a couple of tries to hit on this formula, and to get the edits precise, I used my usual CD Architect program to space them appropriately. It came out quite nicely, and we even include two nice instrumental tracks from Old Fashioned. This would have been an ideal "special edition" of Christmas Portrait since it doesn't upset the original program too much.

IMHO, A&M still missed their chance with this configuration.

 

[Chris May]

Can you say "Ampex Grand Master 456?"

The 456's sound great, but MAN do they get messy with all of the oxide loss after time!!!

 

[Rudy]

Can you say "Ampex Grand Master 456?"

The 456's sound great, but MAN do they get messy with all of the oxide loss after time!!!

I have a couple reels here--can't even play them 10 minutes before they totally clog the playback heads! Definitely one of those tapes that need baking before playback. A shame so many studios used it, too...makes me hope they are archiving it all!

 

[Chris May]

I have a couple reels here--can't even play them 10 minutes before they totally clog the playback heads! Definitely one of those tapes that need baking before playback. A shame so many studios used it, too...makes me hope they are archiving it all!

That's "improvement" for ya!