Miles Davis on Herb Alpert

[kenny]

There is a quote on Herb's website and a sticker on Definitive Hits cd credited to Miles Davis that says "You hear three notes and you know it's Herb Alpert". It says the quote was taken from a 1989 interview. Does anybody know where the interview is from? I've heard that Miles Davis was a fan of Herb Alpert. I'd like to find out if Miles had anything else to say about Herb.

-Kenny

 

[jimac51]

Kenny-I know this got some discussion in the old forum when "DefHits" was released two years ago,but am unsure that anyone had the exact source. Personally,I nearly laughed out loud when I first saw the quote on the website. Miles was a candescent fellow-sometimes he was illuminating,sometimes creating heat. I've never felt comfortable with anything that Miles "said" and taking a Miles quote out of text is deadly. This quote sounds like something the Cap'n would have said about Kenny G. I really get the feeling Miles was having some fun with the moment. BTW,two places to explore some Miles in writing:"A Miles Davis Reader",edited by Bill Kirchner(lots of different voices and places to start) and "Kind of Blue:The Making of the Miles Davis Masterpiece" by Ashley Kahn. Stay away from the autobiog for a while and the official bio leaves lots to be desired. Mac

 

[Rudy]

The only Miles account I've read was his autobiography written w/ Quincy Troupe. Entertaining to say the least. DefHits was released after Miles passed, so a quote taken out of context would not be quite as deadly that way...if anything, I'd though Miles was indifferent to Herb's style of music. But then again, how would Miles ever ignore something like North on South Street? Which, in its day, was for all purposes a groundbreaking recording.

 

[kenny]

Yeah, the first thing people say to me when they read that quote is "Did he mean that as an insult or a compliment?". I figured Miles Davis hated Herb Alpert's music but recently someone told me that he actually like his music. Whatever. I'd still like to read what he said, even if I take it with a grain of salt.

Thanks,
Kenny

 

[martin]

According to an article and an interview in British Q Magazine in the summer of 97 when Herb was playing the "Passion Dance" tour, it was said that Miles suggested he and Herb should do an album together but that Herb "chickened out". The article suggested that there had been a personal contact between the two, but little else was mentioned about it in the article.

- greetings from the north -
Martin

 

[DAN BOLTON]

According to an article and an interview in British Q Magazine in the summer of 97 when Herb was playing the "Passion Dance" tour, it was said that Miles suggested he and Herb should do an album together but that Herb "chickened out". The article suggested that there had been a personal contact between the two, but little else was mentioned about it in the article.

- greetings from the north -
Martin

THAT would have been quite an album...


Dan

 

[Captain Bacardi]

I also recall that Miles and Herb did see each other somewhat socially when Miles was still married to Cicely Tyson. Cicely and Herb were both active on some of the same charities, and Herb was invited and attended Miles' 60th birthday party. I remember seeing a photo of Miles and Herb in Jet magazine at the time.

Towards the end, Miles wanted to be heard more on radio, especially the black stations. Herb had more success at that than Miles, and I think that may have played a role in Miles wanting to work with Herb. Too bad it never happened.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Captaindave]

I had heard the "three notes and you know it's Herb Alpert" quote before, but never knew who said it or in what particular context.

I had always interpreted the meaning as simply that Herb Alpert had a very unique and recognizable sound, and that it was immediately obvious who was playing by the very special sound or tone...

I will admit, however, that I'm not really a Miles Davis fan, and don't know much of anything about him....

 

[david]

I believe Miles Davis either respected you, or he didn't. There was no in between with Miles, and he would be brutally honest as he was in his autobigoraphy, not only about others but himself as well.
Miles Davis, from what I gathered appreciated artists who were willing to try new things. I believe he respected creativity more than an individual who could simply scream out octaves. Who more than Herb Alpert has created new styles, crossing over from Latin, to Jazz, Blues, back to Latin Jazz.
Rolling Stone magazine had an article years ago where Herb shared his expereince with Stan Getz. Herb had to work at gaining Stans trust for whatever reason and actually filled the roled as a peace maker. I have never heard Sting, Joe Cocker, Janet Jackson, The Carpenters, ever say, at least publicly anything negative about Herb Alpert. So to make a long winded answer short, yes I belive Herb would have found a way to work with Miles and that they would have made something magnificent.

 

[Rudy]

I believe that Rolling Stone article you're referring to was the obit for Stan Getz. Well written, I thought. It's too bad that magazine has turned into a tabloid/fashion rag instead of covering music like they did in the old days.

I had a scan of that article around here somewhere. It'd be worth posting.

 

[Jason]

I think the trumpet sound on Tangerine sounds very much like Miles.

A Miles/Herb collaboration would've been real cool; an occasion in the jazz world (but I wouldn't just limit these two wonderful talents to just being "jazz" - they're Miles Davis and Herb Alpert as far as I'm concerned; they defy labels and tags). And imagine if these two went on the road together. They could have each done a set then joined for an encore. Imagine Miles playing along on Tijuana Taxi as well as Herb playing along on 'Round Midnight.

Or maybe they could've done a first set together doing jazz standards, then a second set of more experimental stuff, alternating between Miles' fusion-era sound and Herb's TJB-era sound.

With Herb and Miles (who can alternate between trumpet and organ), take electric guitarists Pete Cosey and Reggie Lucas, drummer Al Foster, and bassist Michael Henderson from Miles' band circa 1973-75, and for Herb, have Julius Wechter on the marimba, John Pisano on acoustic guitar, and Bob Edmondson on the trombone. An interesting mix, in my opinion. If it would have been successful is anyone's guess. We don't know how Miles' -sound would have meshed with Herb's sound.

Jason

 

[Captain Bacardi]

A Miles/Herb collaboration would've been real cool;

There was an article in the British magazine called Q when Herb was touring for his Passion Dance tour, and it mentioned that Miles had actually asked Herb to do an album with him (and it has been assumed that Miles wanted Herb to produce the album rather than play). Miles had lamented about how his music was never being played on Black radio, whereas Herb had some success in that market. Herb declined the offer, saying it had intimidated him. That would have been a very interesting album!

When Herb did Rise Miles sent him a telegram saying "You can't play like me!". Herb was taken aback somewhat, but took it as "Miles was being Miles" (This was right before Miles came out of his "retirement"). Miles married Cicely Tyson later, and Cicely and Herb had worked with the same charities. Eventually Herb and Miles became friends (I got this from a Jet magazine article, where it said that Herb was invited to and attended Miles' 60th birthday party).

I can't agree about Miles playing "Tijuana Taxi". I don't think Miles would be caught dead playing that tune, especially at that time. And Miles was really opposed to playing the old standards like "'Round Midnight". He wasn't there for the audience. He played what he wanted to play, whether the audience liked it or not. Herb was more of a crowd pleaser.

I just had the strangest thought. Could you imagine Miles in a studio and someone put the sheet music to "Tijuana Sauerkraut" in front of him? I just see this image of Miles kicking over the music stand shouting, "Get this sh** away from me you stupid white mother f***er!!!".


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Rudy]

I just had the strangest thought. Could you imagine Miles in a studio and someone put the sheet music to "Tijuana Sauerkraut" in front of him? I just see this image of Miles kicking over the music stand shouting, "Get this sh** away from me you stupid white mother f***er!!!".

That would be so Miles Davis!

 

[david]

One would think that Miles Davis would have secretely admired Herb Alpert if not for technical skill, then for Herbs amazing ability to be able to work with others and do it so well. Hugh Masekela comes to mind and years alter Janet Jackson. I would bet that Miles Davis was perhaps privately envious because of the sheer talent that Herb Aleprt exposed himelf too, and shared his own skill with also.
One of Herb Alperts biggest personal attributes, I belive is his own persona. His ability to work with different individuals takes genuine people skills and I do not know if Miles Davis would have been willing or able to "Bend" with the ecclectic personalities in the music industry.
I think one has to know the mind of Miles (if that is possible) and to recieve a statement such as "You can't play like me" is at least in my interpretation a compliment and Miles way of a friendly jab.

 

[Rudy]

Miles wasn't exactly the stellar trumpet player himself. At least not in a technical sense. But what he lacked in technique he made up for in soul, mood and feeling. And a bad-@ssed attitude. I think once they got past the formalities, they could have made an interesting album together.

 

[Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar]

In the Be-Bop era Miles was great and a wonderful player. Miles had lots of "jazz chops". I think putting Herb and Miles together would be like trying to mix oil with water. It would be like trying to figure out who is a better athlete, Mo Ali or the Babe. Maybe it's better that they didn't do an album together. By the end they probably would not have been able to stand each other. A friend of mine was at a weeks rehersal of Miles new (rock/fusion) band in the early eighties and said Miles was a jerk to the other players. No one has to put up with that crap. (Can I say c***?) I'd like Alpert to do an album with Gato, or Sergio, or Kenny G Boston Pops, or Richard Carpenter...there's a lot of people he could do an album with. Later...Jay

 

[david]

I don't want to get to far off the topic but I had an interesting conversation with a former trumpet instructor one time. The topic of Herb Alpert came up and I asked his opinion. This was a person who played great classical music and was always in demand for his playing. His response was that he did not consider Herb Alpert a "Great" trumpet player and went so far as to
share he didn't particulary care for his music. But, he added that if anyone were to hear him next to Herb, 99.9% of the time Herb would be the much better sounding player. He also shared that Herb Alpert would sound better next to any "Professional" player in a live venue, purely for his expereince, desire, and professionalism. Each note would be clearer, his ability to adapt to the music, his creative ability, no contest.
Interesting assesssment I thought.
David

 

[Captaindave]

Very interesting post above!

May I please add the following observations?

One of the things that I think can greatly help a player develop a great sound like Herb Alpert is the experience of recording. When you record, you hear what it all sounds like. Nothing hidden. You can hear what the listener is hearing and see what it is really like. You can then work to perfect your sound. You can get rid of all the imperfections - some call it "garbage" - that you don't actually hear yourself because you are so used to hearing yourself. What you hear differs from what the audience hears. Ever hear a recording of your own voice? Most people will say,"Is that really me???" It's not what they think they really sound like. Our ears tend to play tricks on us. Music is a similar situation. Herb Alpert is a master of the recording studio and has recorded his sound thousands(I would think)of times. He has had the opportunity to fine tune his sound for years in the recording studio to perfection. He has removed all the flaws from his performance - intonation problems, tone problems, focus and centering problems, etc. My opinion is that the recording experience is something that provides the ability to develop an almost uncanny sound quality, and certainly who has had more opportunity to do that than Herb Alpert?

Herb Alpert has had tremendous public performing experience for many years. Hundreds of major concerts, TV specials, etc. He has played solos in front of thousands and thousands of people, no doubt knowing that every single sound that comes out of the horn is being carefully heard and evaluated. Huge pressure to be perfect. He has refined his sound and stage playing ability in the "trial by fire," so to speak, of performing under the ultimate pressure faced by a major concert and recording artist. Every note is a solo. This also has a huge effect on the development of the player. As a trumpet player with many years of experience myself, I can state from experience that it takes public performance to bring you to the ultimate level of skill. You can practice all you want, but it takes the experience of performance to take you to the "next level," so to speak. Herb Alpert has had this kind of experience at a level that goes far beyond what most players will ever have the opportunity to experience. He has been to the ultimate mountaintop of performance. This makes a big difference.

I agree with the above post. Herb knows how to produce an almost unbelievable sound. He has spent his entire life working on that sound and has had some opportunities that have influenced that ability that most of us simply won't have.

 

[thetijuanataxi]

Also, Herb Alpert has, through it all, remained original. He never tries to copy someone else. He may borrow tinges of their sound at times, but there is no mistaking who's playing when you hear one of his recordings. Someone like Maynard Ferguson may turn his nose up at Herb Alpert because Herb doesn't scream on the horn. I don't know if Herb has the ability to hit double high c's or not, but I can say with certainty that Maynard Ferguson could not do what Herb Alpert does. Herb's sound to me is much more pleasurable to listen to than Maynard Ferguson. Herb has a better tone quality, phrasing, knack for great arranging, choice of material, and musicians that compliment his sound than Maynard will ever have. After all, would anyone REALLY want to hear "Tijuana Taxi" played an octave higher than Herb plays it? Our ears would pop. And that's really all Maynard could offer. So again, I'd rather listen to a "real" artist than a "real" trumpeter.

David,
NP Herb Alpert Gold Series Vol. 2

 

[Captaindave]

Yep, I agree...

IMO, too many trumpet players today have prioritized the "high note craze" to the extent that playing the trumpet has almost become an athletic, rather than musical, matter...

When I was younger and taking private lessons, the emphasis was on tone, not range.

Many trumpet players nowadays, and especially the some of the younger ones, equate playing skill with the ability to produce the extreme high register. In fact, this register has been expanded to include notes that never used to be considered within the reasonable and musically desirable range for the trumpet. However, there have been a few players who have managed to be able to play in this range, and now the ability to do so is a major goal for many players. IMO, a little of this goes a long way, and can even become rather obnoxious after a short while if there is nothing else offered.

I get bored with this "scream" playing very quickly. If all a player has to offer is range, I see that as trumpet athleticism, rather than a statement of musicianship...It becomes like who has the highest high jump or pole vault, or longest broad jump?... who cares?

 

[Rudy]

Maynard Ferguson...heh. Even he will admit he's not a top shelf trumpet player or soloist. (The extensive Mosaic box set liner notes alluded to this.) He's more like the "glue" that holds his bands together, a section leader, as well as being a mentor and discoverer of great jazz talent (both players and arrangers). I certainly didn't buy most of his albums to hear his trumpet playing. If you're thinking of his more "athletic" side, then chances are you've got one of the Columbia albums in hand. If you listen to any of his Roulette sides, you'll hear him as part of the section playing an occasional high note. But one is more drawn in by all of the other great soloists, section musicians and arrangements that these recordings offer. When Maynard's got a hot arrangement and a sharp band behind him, it's a knockout punch.

It's like apples and oranges. I'll never knock Maynard for doing what he does best. I don't even consider Miles a great technical trumpet player either, but similar to Maynard, he surrounds himself with bright, upcoming talent and finds new ways to express himself through the music. (Witness Bitches Brew.) Then you have someone like Marsalis who can be technically perfect but couldn't think up an original idea if his life depended on it. (Other than Stanley Crouch , others in the jazz press just see him as a museum curator of a style of jazz that passed years ago.) Or the $mooth Jazz trumpet players who can noodle on for hours over electronic grooves that are as shallow as a wading pool.

I guess it's whatever floats your boat. I just don't like having to say that certain musicians are better than others just for certain aspects of their playing. Apples and oranges again. They play to different audiences.

 

[martin]

I agree very much with the "apple and oranges" idea. When talking to John Pisano this summer, after he had just returned from a tour of Germany, he told me that he found that the "Herb sound" as he called it, is still very much alive today. I have seen that some of you here in the past have not shown so much enthusiasm over the playing of Chris Botti, but to me he is a player that at times anyway, reminds me of Herb, especially on the ballads and when he is in his more "melancholy moods". Parts of his Christmas album "December" is absolutely great, just listen to his versions of The Christmas Song and Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah. If you're a Herb fan, I can't see how you could dislike that.

- greetings from the north -

Martin

 

[Captaindave]

I agree completely with all the above...

Different things appeal to different audiences - I happen to like Herb's approach to the trumpet better than Maynard or Miles...they have their audiences, but I'm not in those audiences...

Also, I like Botti a lot - I think he is a very good 21st century version of Herb. I think I hear Herb in Botti's tone and stylings. I just bought Botti's new CD and I like it a lot. You won't hear me say anything but good stuff about Botti...

I also like Rick Braun a lot also. He is a more "ambitious" player... meaning more demonstration of technique and high range on some of his recordings, but he does it all very tastefully and with finesse. And he also has a great sound.

I listen to Herb, Botti, and Braun...they all represent what I like to hear from a trumpet player.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

I find both Braun and Botti incredibly boring. They're just rehashing the same old stuff that's been done a thousand times already. I've been getting into Nicholas Payton and Wallace Roney lately. They tend to spice things up a bit!


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Captaindave]

It's the "sound" that appeals to me more than the substance of the songs themselves..

I agree that many of the songs are not the greatest from the compositional standpoint. But I really like the overall "sound." For example, there's some stuff on the Rick Braun/Boney James collaboration "Shake It Up" which probably isn't the greatest from the "substance" point of view, but I really enjoy the overall sound...

These guys have great control of the horn and great tone. As a trumpet player, I'd love to sound like either of them...