New Broadway Cast Album for "Promises, Promises"
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CherryStreet
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Not sure why Bruce bothered to release this as a 2 CD set? There are plenty of 2CD versions available through FSM still BTW! I just listened to the original LP version and the Varese Sarabande version. No contest. The Varese Sarabande version is far suprior to the original LP version. You can see why they chose to remix this LP when they first released it on Rykodisc!
CherryStreet said:
It was, as I understand it, a way for fans to get hold of the original vinyl mix that had never been on CD before - purely a move to give fans a better sense of the history of these recordings.
I applaud Bruce for recognizing the history of this album and for keeping the door open for those seeking the new remixes. The only lament I have is that the Original London Cast album wasn't somehow able to be worked into the mix.
Harry
CherryStreet
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As I mentioned either in this thread or another (hard to remember LOL), when Bruce first gained access to the MGM/UA library, the OLC of Promises was the first thing he asked for and unfortunately the rights weren't available. In terms of the original vinyl mix, all I can say is that the overwhelming majority of Broadway geeks (and I count myself among them) prefer the original mix to either of the previous CD re-do's (which actually both came from the same remix master).
Okay, time to speak up, I guess. The Ryko remix (done by MGM, actually) tries to be an EXACT clone of the LP mix, including the strings on the right. They didn't do it because they thought it should be remixed, they did it because they couldn't find one reel of the album master. It's very easy to make simplistic guesses, but since no one here actually knows, simplistic guesses remain what they are - guesses, not fact.
I made disc one of our two CD set the LP mix because, well, you know, it won a GRAMMY. It also sounds rather spectacular and I'm afraid Cherry Street, basing his opinion from listening to the actual LP rather than the CD we put out, has no way of knowing just how spectacular it sounds, save for the pitch issues. For history's sake, I felt the original LP mix that Burt Bacharach, Henry Jerome, and Phil Ramone did should be available, rather than, for me, the substandard-sounding Ryko/Varese mix.
The second CD was always going to be my new mix with the pitch-corrected vocals. And, of course, those doing the complaining about what we included in the two CD set seem to be forgetting one small little detail - it cost the same as one CD. I could have charged more and people would have paid it, but I didn't.
The London cast album was a lost cause until last Wednesday, when the stars suddenly came into alignment. So, yes, we are now releasing that. If someone thinks that's "gouging" - think again or don't buy it.
I made disc one of our two CD set the LP mix because, well, you know, it won a GRAMMY. It also sounds rather spectacular and I'm afraid Cherry Street, basing his opinion from listening to the actual LP rather than the CD we put out, has no way of knowing just how spectacular it sounds, save for the pitch issues. For history's sake, I felt the original LP mix that Burt Bacharach, Henry Jerome, and Phil Ramone did should be available, rather than, for me, the substandard-sounding Ryko/Varese mix.
The second CD was always going to be my new mix with the pitch-corrected vocals. And, of course, those doing the complaining about what we included in the two CD set seem to be forgetting one small little detail - it cost the same as one CD. I could have charged more and people would have paid it, but I didn't.
The London cast album was a lost cause until last Wednesday, when the stars suddenly came into alignment. So, yes, we are now releasing that. If someone thinks that's "gouging" - think again or don't buy it.
Harry said:
We only had the two-track album masters, so it's the original mix remastered in sparkling sound
Thought some people here might enjoy seeing Steve Suskin's review of the two CD set at Playbill, especially Mr. Cherry Street. Mr. Suskin goes into just how not-so-hot the Ryko was and talks about both our remastering of the original LP mix, and the new mix.
http://www.playbill.com/news/article/141471-ON-THE-RECORD-Promises-Promises-Then-and-Now/pg2
CherryStreet
Member
Bruce,
I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that your incredible work and effort on Promises, Promises 3.0 has made it the gold standard as far as seeking out the "definitive" version of the Broadway cast recording.
But for me I hands down prefer the Varčse Sarabande CD version over the Ramone CD version. Even with it's flaws I feel it fills the room better and I prefer the better stereo separation to the Ramone CD version. It just sounds brighter to me. But hey, that's just my opinion.
Which brings us back to the question, why release a 2CD set when after listening to your now legendary, painstaking remaster, with the correct running order - why would one ever listen to the original Ramone CD ever again? Even Steven Suskin in Playbill writes, "So don't despair if you missed the two-CD version; the new single-CD release is the Promises you want." If the second disc costs no extra to manufacture, why not give the consumer a bonus disc that they will actually listen to more than once like the Original London Cast version? I know, I know - it "just now" became available as the "stars aligned". This is where I am totally confused and I am hoping that you can clear this up for me. You got the rights for the original Broadway Cast recording from MGM no problem, but you had problems getting the London Cast rights. Doesn't MGM, the rights holder as successor to United Artists Records also hold the rights to the London Cast recording? And if it was no problem getting the Broadway Cast rights from the same company MGM, why the delay with the London Cast rights?
For my money, I would have liked to have had the London Cast Recording or a DVD of the amazing POZ event you produced a few years ago or at least a video of the "Turkey Lurkey Time" show-stopper as the bonus disc that's all. In a perfect world we would have gotten our wish perhaps, a double disc set containing your master work on the Broadway version and the London Cast version so in this economy we wouldn't have to shell out
twice for both shows.
Some folks here have said that they think the London Cast Recording is superior to the Broadway version. I think that is total hogwash. What is your opinion? Again I have to agree with Mr. Suskin, "But the original Broadway cast recording, in any guise, is the best Promises; better than the new cast recording, better than the 1969 London cast recording (starring Anthony Roberts and Betty Buckley). The original Promises, Promises, starring Jerry Orbach and Jill O'Hara, has oomph, all right. And plenty of it."
I couldn't agree more.
http://dynagrooveblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/dynagroove-theater-classic-promises.html
I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that your incredible work and effort on Promises, Promises 3.0 has made it the gold standard as far as seeking out the "definitive" version of the Broadway cast recording.
But for me I hands down prefer the Varčse Sarabande CD version over the Ramone CD version. Even with it's flaws I feel it fills the room better and I prefer the better stereo separation to the Ramone CD version. It just sounds brighter to me. But hey, that's just my opinion.
Which brings us back to the question, why release a 2CD set when after listening to your now legendary, painstaking remaster, with the correct running order - why would one ever listen to the original Ramone CD ever again? Even Steven Suskin in Playbill writes, "So don't despair if you missed the two-CD version; the new single-CD release is the Promises you want." If the second disc costs no extra to manufacture, why not give the consumer a bonus disc that they will actually listen to more than once like the Original London Cast version? I know, I know - it "just now" became available as the "stars aligned". This is where I am totally confused and I am hoping that you can clear this up for me. You got the rights for the original Broadway Cast recording from MGM no problem, but you had problems getting the London Cast rights. Doesn't MGM, the rights holder as successor to United Artists Records also hold the rights to the London Cast recording? And if it was no problem getting the Broadway Cast rights from the same company MGM, why the delay with the London Cast rights?
For my money, I would have liked to have had the London Cast Recording or a DVD of the amazing POZ event you produced a few years ago or at least a video of the "Turkey Lurkey Time" show-stopper as the bonus disc that's all. In a perfect world we would have gotten our wish perhaps, a double disc set containing your master work on the Broadway version and the London Cast version so in this economy we wouldn't have to shell out
twice for both shows.
Some folks here have said that they think the London Cast Recording is superior to the Broadway version. I think that is total hogwash. What is your opinion? Again I have to agree with Mr. Suskin, "But the original Broadway cast recording, in any guise, is the best Promises; better than the new cast recording, better than the 1969 London cast recording (starring Anthony Roberts and Betty Buckley). The original Promises, Promises, starring Jerry Orbach and Jill O'Hara, has oomph, all right. And plenty of it."
I couldn't agree more.
http://dynagrooveblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/dynagroove-theater-classic-promises.html
Things are seldom as simple as we like to think they are. The simple fact is that we could only include material recorded for the Broadway cast album on this release. And again, I purposely kept the price at our usual one CD price, so the original LP mix was basically a gift, and it is, IMO, a little curmudgeonly to feel entitled to have something that you would have liked better.
As to the Ramone/Bacharach, Henry Jerome version - I felt it was absolutely necessary, historically speaking, to make it available on CD - it won the Grammy, after all.
I'm glad you're a fan of the Ryko - I don't like it at all, but that's just taste. I can only tell you that their goal, simple and plain, was to make it sound exactly like the original - when they transfered the edited eight track session masters to a digital 48 track tape, they also transfered a cassette of the original album mix and they placed all the instruments exactly where they'd been placed in the original mix, including the strings on the right. They did not re-think the mix in any way. They didn't spread it more. They just tried to make it close and then Ryko (who says the remix was done by MGM and that they were just handed the master - which is why they had no idea it wasn't the original and why they don't mention it in the booklet) issued it, then Varese. Whatever one may think of the original LP, it was important to me to make it available, whether people listen to it or not.
Needless to say I'm thrilled at the reaction to the remix, and I'm thrilled to finally make the UK version available. As to whether I like it - I do, although it's not well recorded and has some curious orchestration changes. But Betty Buckley does interesting things, and Tony Roberts is charming, and it's great to have Jack Kruschen doing his Oscar-nominated role. But no, it's not as good as the Broadway version in any way.
As to the Ramone/Bacharach, Henry Jerome version - I felt it was absolutely necessary, historically speaking, to make it available on CD - it won the Grammy, after all.
I'm glad you're a fan of the Ryko - I don't like it at all, but that's just taste. I can only tell you that their goal, simple and plain, was to make it sound exactly like the original - when they transfered the edited eight track session masters to a digital 48 track tape, they also transfered a cassette of the original album mix and they placed all the instruments exactly where they'd been placed in the original mix, including the strings on the right. They did not re-think the mix in any way. They didn't spread it more. They just tried to make it close and then Ryko (who says the remix was done by MGM and that they were just handed the master - which is why they had no idea it wasn't the original and why they don't mention it in the booklet) issued it, then Varese. Whatever one may think of the original LP, it was important to me to make it available, whether people listen to it or not.
Needless to say I'm thrilled at the reaction to the remix, and I'm thrilled to finally make the UK version available. As to whether I like it - I do, although it's not well recorded and has some curious orchestration changes. But Betty Buckley does interesting things, and Tony Roberts is charming, and it's great to have Jack Kruschen doing his Oscar-nominated role. But no, it's not as good as the Broadway version in any way.
What a shame that Bacharach did not write another Broadway musical score. Many years ago he said that his Broadway experience left him totally drained and he would never compose another such score again. Based on the excellence of Promises, Promises, just think what he could have accomplished if he dedicated himself to becoming a Broadway composer.
CherryStreet
Member
lj said:
Indeed. But not only was he "drained" he contracted pneumonia.
Infact when he was hospitalized with pneumonia Hal wrote the now famous lyrics for "I'll Never Fall In Love Again".
I also think what happened to he & Hal on "Lost Horizon" also helped
crush any return to The Great White Way together.
He & Hal talk all about it in this great interview:
http://public.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/npr/fa/2010/05/20100505_fa_01.mp3
DynaGroove
New Member
Thanks CherryStreet for linking my first blog article on one of my all time favorite musicals, PROMISES, PROMISES to this forum.
I have since posted a new entry congratulating Mr. Kimmel and his partners over at Kritzerland for their amazing efforts in getting this new release and the upcoming release of the Original London Cast Album into the hands of "Bacharach Maniacs" such as myself as well as theater geeks and musical aficionados everywhere!
I'm also a big fan of Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass, Sergio Mendes and Brasil '66, The Carpenters and of course Burt Bacharach...all legendary A&M artists!
http://dynagrooveblog.blogspot.com/2010/07/dynagroove-discs-to-own-promises.html
I have since posted a new entry congratulating Mr. Kimmel and his partners over at Kritzerland for their amazing efforts in getting this new release and the upcoming release of the Original London Cast Album into the hands of "Bacharach Maniacs" such as myself as well as theater geeks and musical aficionados everywhere!
I'm also a big fan of Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass, Sergio Mendes and Brasil '66, The Carpenters and of course Burt Bacharach...all legendary A&M artists!
http://dynagrooveblog.blogspot.com/2010/07/dynagroove-discs-to-own-promises.html
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