Old Fashioned Christmas

[newvillefan]

I remember first getting this album on vinyl and being disappointed that I had to wait nearly 20 minutes to hear Karen sing a note!

I think Richard should have changed the running order slightly so that there was more of Karen on side 1, to balance it out a bit more. There are only 2 leads on side 1, but about 4 or 5 on the other.

Having said that, some stunning renditions like Little Altar Boy and Santa Claus...which make it a fitting Christmas tribute to her.

The chill factor part on it for me is where the song An Old Fashioned Christmas song finishes and there's a slight pause before O Holy Night, where the flute/oboe picks up the last notes of the previous song, it's so moving, even though it's just instrumental.

Any other thoughts?

Stephen

 

[Rudy]

It was my feeling that there weren't enough vocals to make a complete new album, so there's bound to be some amount of filler. I've always liked Christmas Portrait much better--glad to finally have it on a CD, in its original running order, even if it is remixed. Still have my vinyl, still my favorite version.

 

[Rick-An Ordinary Fool]

Stephen I really agree that it takes so long for Karen to come in that you almost think she will never arrive

But AHHH when she does, I get goosebumps & it is worth the wait.

But still I agree that if it was mixed around in a slightly diff order it might not feel like that.

It's amazing how we all feel the same about Karen, her vocals are so amazing that especially around the holidays, she is like a long lost friend that makes you so happy inside & warm feeling. It's almost like a comfort I get that can't be explained....but never-the-less it is there.

 

[Harry]

What's the old analogy? Waiting for Karen on An Old Fashioned Christmas is akin to a child waiting for Santa on Christmas Eve. For the longest time, it seems like it'll never happen and then all of a sudden, it's here!

I think Richard planned it that way!

Harry
...anticipating anothe Christmas music season, online...

 

[PJ]

Christmas Portrait is an All Time Classic Seasonal Album

Understand Richard Planned Similar Concept Album with An Old Fashioned Christmas Follow Up -With One Drawback -Limited Number of Karen Studio Seasonal Outtakes to Release.Richard Could have Used Some TV Special Tracks / Alternate Versions or Some Live Carpenters Christmas Recordings -However Probably Due to Clearance / CopyRight Issues / Timescales and Desire to Release Studio Album -Kept to Vault Tracks Plus Freshly Recorded Tracks With Richard / Chorale/ Singers From July 1984 London Abbey Road Studio Work.

I have Always Loved This Album With Great Karen Vocals on He Came Here For Me , Home For Holidays , Do You Hear etc and An All Time Classic -Little Altar Boy

Sometimes I Wish Karen had Recorded Lead Vocals For My Favourite Things , An Old Fashioned Christmas and O Holy Night -However Richard's Versions are Among His Best Work

Still a Great Seasonal Album

Peter...Looking Forward to Christmas......

 

[Bruno]

Even though I think that CHRISTMAS PORTRAIT is the superior Christmas album, I like OLD FASHIONED CHRISTMAS. Richard's piano playing is excellent, and my favorite non-instrumental tunes are HOME FOR THE HOLIDAYS and NEW YEAR'S EVE.

The one song I always skip on this album is LITTLE ALTAR BOY. Even though Karen's vocals are great, the lyrics are pure nonsense to me. Come on! A grown up woman, singing about wanting to be "holy like an altar boy"?? What does she mean? And I assure you: Altar boys aren't holy at all.

Bruno

 

[Murray]

The one song I always skip on this album is LITTLE ALTAR BOY. Even though Karen's vocals are great, the lyrics are pure nonsense to me. Come on! A grown up woman, singing about wanting to be "holy like an altar boy"?? What does she mean? And I assure you: Altar boys aren't holy at all.

Bruno, the lyrics had me confused for a long time too. Then I found a Christmas music book at a bookstore that included the music to this song, and a paragraph or so about the composer, the songs significance etc. According to the book, the song isn't about a real altar boy. The "little altar boy" in the song is the baby Jesus, as represented in the nativity scene on the altar. The song is about a sinner who goes into a church around Christmastime, and she is asking the baby Jesus to intercede on her behalf before God. When Karen sings "what must I do to be holy like you", she wants to be holy like Christ. When looked at this way, the lyrics make perfect sense.

Murray
...who wishes he could remember the title of the book, online...

 

[mr J.]

I've always considered "Little Altar Boy" to be one of Karen's Finest Performances(And an exquisite arrangement by Peter Knight).But,I can't say that I agree with the Lyrics at all-which basically talk about a person asking a Catholic altar boy to intercede with the Lord on his behalf.An altar boy can't do anything for a persons sins or spiritual condition,and,as mentioned previously,altar boys aren't holy-they're sinners just like everbody else.I would say whoever wrote those lyrics was probably a Catholic person.But,as I mentioned earlier,it's definitely one of Karen's finest performances.

 

[Murray]

^^^^ Mr J, read my response above. The lyrics have absolutely NOTHING to do with Catholic altar boys The "little altar boy" is JESUS, specifically the figure of the baby Jesus in the altar nativity (manger) scene. That's why it's considered to be a Christmas song...

Murray

 

[thestitch]

Murray, that has to be the best explanation of the lyrics to "Little Altar Boy" I've seen! Thanks for posting it.

Marilyn,
who has always been very partial to this lovely song!

 

[Bruno]

Thanks for the explanation, Murray! If the book, you are refering to, is right, than this song does make some sense. Otherwise, I would agree with what Mr.J wrote.

Still, I prefer Karen singing MAKING LOVE IN THE AFTERNOON.

Bruno
It's frosty in Germany. Temperatures at night below zero degree Celsius.

 

[jimac51]

Conjecture on the use of "Little Alter Boy" based on some research. The popular(original?) version of this song was by Vic Dana in 1961,when Richard was 15 and Karen was 11,a very impressionable time for music consumption. Being just a bit younger than Karen(I was born in 1951),I can tell you that "Little Alter Boy" got a considerable amount of airplay that Christmas and is still etched in my memory,though I always considered it a "minor" song(hey,it was slow,didn't have chipmunks singing,dogs barking or references to Santa)in the scheme of things. Not unlike the Spike Jones Christmas album that seemed to be such an influence on Richard and Karen,I suspect this was another song,not overdone like "White Christmas",that would have been a possible canidate for recording and,eventually making the cut. Also,as a former alter boy(and a former Teamster),I can state that we are no saints,but we're always trying. Gotta go brush up on my Latin... Mac

 

[350hunny]

It would be interesting to compare versions by different artists.

Little Altar Boy at CD Universe

I bought one by Andy Williams, as I thought C's might have heard his Christmas music, too.

 

[Brasil_Nut]

one song I always skip on this album is LITTLE ALTAR BOY. Even though Karen's vocals are great, the lyrics are pure nonsense to me. Come on! A grown up woman, singing about wanting to be "holy like an altar boy"?? What does she mean? And I assure you: Altar boys aren't holy at all.

With all due respect, Old Fashioned Christmas is a compilation of old Christmas material and hymns -- one of them being "Little Altar Boy " -- and it's a beautiful rendition of the song. The Carpenter sound was well suited to Christmas and/or Holiday music, as can be seen on both Christmas albums. "Little Altar Boy" does not refer to current events, it refers to the goodness of Christmas -- that's all. No more, no less. Furthermore, I find it to be one of Karen's best vocals. It's always been a favorite of mine.

Jon

 

[CraigGA]

Brazilnut: I appreciate the spirit in you post. Kinda fits the reason we listen to music.

Craig

 

[Bruno]

I disagree, Jon. LITTLE ALTAR BOY isn't just another holiday song with no religious background. It's exactly what Mr.J wrote: A woman asking an altar boy to pray for her, because she thinks she is a sinner. And Mr.J wrote, that he doesn't believe, that anybody is able to intercede with God. You have to pray for yourself. In saying this, he takes the point of view of Martin Luther, who was very criticall about the saints in the catholic church.

But this is a theological discussion. My point of view was more psychological. If a little girl sings this song, oh well.....let her sing. But a grown up woman? This is very strange, in my opinion.

Bruno

 

[Murray]

WARNING: the following post contains content of a religious nature. Those who may be offended can choose not to read it.

I disagree, Jon. LITTLE ALTAR BOY isn't just another holiday song with no religious background. It's exactly what Mr.J wrote: A woman asking an altar boy to pray for her, because she thinks she is a sinner. And Mr.J wrote, that he doesn't believe, that anybody is able to intercede with God. You have to pray for yourself. In saying this, he takes the point of view of Martin Luther, who was very criticall about the saints in the catholic church.

As I've pointed out in this thread already, I believe that the "little altar boy" (figure of the baby in the manger on the altar) is Jesus Christ, NOT a literal, human altar boy!!! I'm a Lutheran, and as you rightly say, we do not believe in praying to saints, or confessing to priests. We believe that the only way to God the Father is through Christ (as Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me").

Taken in this light, the lyrics to "little altar boy" are not out of line with Lutheran (or other protestant) theology. The singer is coming to Christ (the little altar boy) as the way to the Father. That is why this is a Christmas song - it sums up the reason why we celebrate Christmas - that Christ was born into this world to be our savior, to ultimately die to pay the penalty for our sins, and as a result, make it possible for us to have a relationship with our Creator for eternity. End of sermon.

Just one more thing to think about. IF the song were really about a human altar boy interceding with God, what the heck would it be doing on a Christmas album?? That would make no sense whatsoever. I also don't believe for one minute that Karen would have recorded the song if that was it's real meaning. She was raised in the Methodist church, and that would have gone against everything that she was taught.

"Little Altar Boy" was written by Los Angeles jazz musician Howlett Smith, whose most recent work is a cantata titled "The Carpenter" about the life of Christ. He also teaches at El Camino College, and can be reached at (310) 841-2539. Perhaps someone in the area can phone him and get the definitive answer.

But this is a theological discussion. My point of view was more psychological. If a little girl sings this song, oh well.....let her sing. But a grown up woman? This is very strange, in my opinion.

What is so strange about "a grown up woman" confessing her sins? It's never too late!...

Murray
...with his last word on this topic, online...

EDIT: The above post was in no way intended to be disrespectful to people of the Roman Catholic faith, and I apologize if offense was taken. I realize that there are other churches, including some protestant ones, which also have altar boys, so it was unfair of me to single out one denomination in particular. As a result, I have removed the term "Catholic" from the above post.

 

[Dave]

I wish someone would hurry up and send down a lightning bolt on this...

Dave

...Jeezz! A Methodist singer singing a "supposedly" Catholic song for a record company founded by a couple o' nice Jewish guys...

 

[Harry]

Thank you Murray. Great job.

Harry
...awaiting the remaining Trick or Treaters, online...

 

[Geographer]

I was unaware that Lutherans were not allowed to pray for each other.

I think the intent of the song is that an alterboy (Catholic or otherwise) is an example of innocents and holiness. I know that today's pop culture makes it acceptable to degrade and ridcule all that is good and innocent (especially if it is Catholic), but at the time the song was written, serving God as an alterboy was (and still is) a holy act. Therefore, I see know strangeness in the lyric at all. The singer (in this case Karen) is stating that she wants to know what she must do to be holy and innocent like an alterboy serving God. She is asking the alterboy HOW to be holy and to "lift up" his "voice and sing a prayer." For "she knows" her "life has been all wrong" and she wants the alter boy to pray for her to "help a sinner be strong."

In short, some people don't know how to pray to God. So it makes perfect sense that she would ask someone who she thinks does know to help her out.

As for the the whole anti-Catholic biggotry, one should just look to scripture where Christs gives his apostles the power to bind in heaven what they bind on earth and loosen in heaven what they loosen on earth. This is Apostolic tradition (Christ gave specific teaching and instructions..some to his Apostles...and some to the general masses of followers). Hence the power to bind and loosen given to the Apostles have been handed down through the bishops and priests in an unbroken line for over 2000 years.

I know this is going far off the subject, but I feel I have to defend my Catholic faith from biggotry, intollerance, and basic ignorance.

 

[engineer]

This whole thread is getting a little on the ridiculous side, in my opinion.

To those of you who don't like this song because "the lyrics are pure nonsense." I ask why you don't take issue with other Carpenters' songs in which the lyrics don't make sense -- especially in the context of Karen singing them.

Take "B'wana She No Home." Does it make sense for Karen to be singing about problems with the servants? Or "Superstar." Was Karen a rock-star-obsessed groupie? Or "Don't Cry for Me Argentina" -- did she become the wife of a dictator of a South American country without anyone notifying us?

All I have to say is WHO CARES whether the lyrics make sense. A singer does not have to sing about their own life all the time. They are free to become other "characters," or, shockingly enough, sing a song just because they think it's pretty or challenging or anything else!

If you people want to skip the best vocal performance on AN OLD-FASHIONED CHRISTMAS, please go right ahead. But please be sure you're not being hypocritical when passing judgment on the song, because, if you ask me, "Little Altar Boy" makes a lot more sense than "Don't Cry for Me Argentina."

Dan

 

[mr J.]

I have been listening to these lyrics very carefully over the past few days,and I would have to say that the lyricist is referring to a Catholic altar boy.The lyrics can't be referring to Jesus-Jesus doesn't pray for people-we humans pray to him. Jesus speaks to us through his Word-The Bible.And how would it be possible for us to hear him praying?Jesus hasn't walked on this earth in 2000 years!The Bible teaches that no human being could ever be holy-we are all sinners!The Bible also shows us the remedy for this situation-we need to have our sins paid for by the Lord Jesus-this is why he took on a human existence and went to the cross-to provide salvation for sinners.A closer inspection of those lyrics reveals a person trying to deal with his spiritual condition through another human being(the altar boy).I have to admit I never really paid much attention to those lyrics until now.The vocals & arrangement are so dazzling,it's easy to get sidetracked.

Incidentally,I didn't say in the above post that no one can intercede with God.We can always pray to the Lord.But,I mentioned that an altar boy(or a priest,for that matter)can't do anything for a persons sins or their spiritual condition.Each individual has to go directly to the Lord.

 

[Bruno]

I'm glad it is possible to discuss religious topics in this forum.

Murray, if you were right with your interpretation of this song (the little altar boy being the newborn Jesus), I don't have any problems with these lyrics.

But I think, that Mr.J is right in his interpretation of the song. The little altar boy isn't Jesus, it's a little boy serving in some church service.

Now, I'm a Catholic. I didn't feel offended by Murray's posting at all. He just points out the lutheran point of view about priests and saints and so on. Personally, I pray directly to God, and don't need someone to pray for me, neither a saint nor a priest or whoever. But if somebody believes, that someone can pray for him - so let him believe! I don't have a problem with this at all.

LITTLE ALTAR BOY has a wonderful music and Karen's vocals are great. But I can't listen to a song and forget about the lyrics.

I still feel uncomfortable with a grown up singing this kind of song, but it seems, that it's hard for me to explain why. Well, no problem. I'll skip LITTLE ALTAR BOY in the future, too.

Bruno

 

[Harry]

First off, I have to say that I never paid much attention to the lyrics of "Little Altar Boy." It's true of most songs for me - lyrics are just a tool for singers to sing with and I rarely sit down and just listen to lyrics. Karen's vocals on this song are exquisite, no question about it. The subject matter? I guess it's a matter of interpretation.

As one of the moderators, I've been watching this topic carefully, and a couple of times came close to at least pointing out that religion is not generally a good subject for a music forum. But I have to say I'm impressed with the way you folks have handled yourselves.

I'd also vote for this song as my favorite use of the O. K. Chorale.

Harry
NP: "Little Altar Boy" - Carpenters

 

[Murray]

I found the webpage of the composer, Mr. Howlett Smith:
http://www.ravenrecords.net/construction.html

I sent him a short email, asking if he would be willing to share his personal interpretation of his "Little Altar Boy" lyrics. If he chooses to respond, I will share his comments with this forum, and hopefully the mystery will be solved.

Murray
...searching for answers, online...