I found out about "I Believe You" from the old, thick yellow Phonolog that would be updated regularly at Musicland. I always checked Carpenters titles, and, sure enough, there was an arrow pointing to "I Believe You". Musicland carried the Top 100 singles from Billboard, and they had it. I was surprised, as I hadn't heard it on the radio. Then nothing really happened with it. I think it went to #9 A/C, if memory serves.
Singles That Shouldn't Have Been Singles
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newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
I don't think a complete version exists. Richard said through his website Q&A that he got halfway done with it and realised all they were doing was mimicking ABBA, so the track was scrapped.
BarryT60
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the clarification.... Truthfully, aside from the feckled little girl line, I much prefer I Believe You....
Thanks again!
motownboy
Well-Known Member
Great discussion....For me it also has to be "Goofus." I truly disliked the song back then...Now I kinda see its charm. However, it should have never been a single release. The "A Kind of Hush" album really didn't have any Top Ten single material on it.. I bet that "Goofus": was just a stab in the dark hoping it might stick...
I always thought that "Sweet Sweet Smile" - with a modified arrangement could have been a big hit...I would have replaced the corny honky tonk piano with a more "pop" sounding keyboard arrangement and replaced the fiddle with a more contemporary string sound...
"I Believe You" was also an odd choice. Though I had liked the song a lot when it was previously released by Dorothy Moore, it didn't become a big hit for her. I also like K&R's version...much better than "Strength of A Woman", whose lyrics were anything but about a woman's strength...
I always thought that "Sweet Sweet Smile" - with a modified arrangement could have been a big hit...I would have replaced the corny honky tonk piano with a more "pop" sounding keyboard arrangement and replaced the fiddle with a more contemporary string sound...
"I Believe You" was also an odd choice. Though I had liked the song a lot when it was previously released by Dorothy Moore, it didn't become a big hit for her. I also like K&R's version...much better than "Strength of A Woman", whose lyrics were anything but about a woman's strength...
RainyDays
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That line stuck out to me too. It seemed too specific in a way, I guess, but it directly brought out Karen's maternal feelings and desire to have a child in her own life. Which makes the line hold some sad resonance, as she just never got what she wanted.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
And that's one of the reasons they cancelled Karen's solo album! When Herb Alpert visited them during the Hush sessions to politely let them know he didn't think it was good enough, he signed off its release when Richard and Karen said they were happy with it.
Why couldn't A&M have afforded the same courtesy to Karen over her own album?
Because Herb and Jerry learned their lesson on "Hush". There's a time to be the boss of the label and tell the artist they need some hits. Herb loved Karen. I'm sure he wanted the biggest possible launch for her solo career...and he knew that an LP with no hit single wasn't going to do it. That's the trap his own wife was in (quite unfairly).
Well, they should have listened to it again (I'll bet they didn't). Karen's solo is superior to "A Kind of Hush" in every way. Yes, it was different, but the bulk of it worked very well. Yeah, "Lovelines" needed to be remixed, and "Still In Love With You" was really a stretch, but I maintain that album overall is very strong.
I think the reason they turned their thumbs down was purely out of deference to Richard. They saw how uncomfortable he was with the whole thing, and they didn't want to screw with the 'tried and true'. The ironic part is it would have reversed their downward spiral. Bad decision.
I think the reason they turned their thumbs down was purely out of deference to Richard. They saw how uncomfortable he was with the whole thing, and they didn't want to screw with the 'tried and true'. The ironic part is it would have reversed their downward spiral. Bad decision.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
So why plod on with the 'Passage' album then and the exorbitant costs they went to recording 'Occupants' and 'Don't Cry For Me Argentina'? The album spawned zero US hits and over time was one of the last to go gold. They fumbled around until the 11th hour with producers like Boz Scaggs because Richard was telling Herb he wasn't up to it. When it went awry, Richard was put back in the helm. It was a mess, and a really poor long term strategy and vision A&M in my view. The public didn't know what was going on but A&M did, and they should have done more to put the brakes on and protect one of their most lucrative acts.
In my mind, if they were interviewing producers for the 1977 album, then someone within the A&M brass clearly realised Richard needed a break. And he wasn't given one. That album should have been postponed. They all knew what was going on with Richard and Karen personally. It was being voiced by Jerry Weintraub and Werner Wolfen in inner circles if nowhere else. It happened a year too late in 1978, when they were still being flogged recording TV specials, but floundering personally. But that's another story.
Even Richard has begudgingly conceded that 'If I Had You' was top 5 material, he did so in the Coleman book.
100% agree. As late as the 1981 GMA appearance, Richard seemed to rule the roost. Karen, bruised by her aborted solo album, was mentioning doing musicals and Richard was clearly having none of it. The body language between them was really uncomfortable. And you know what? Part of me thinks she should have said, "if you're not on board with it, I have the talent so I'm doing it anyway". By this stage, with her talent and track record, she could have waved him goodbye, but that wasn't in her make up, so it would never have happened. That's the dilemma I think she struggled with all her life. Shame they were brother and sister, instead of college pals.
Stronger than Hush in a million years!!!
RainyDays
Active Member
I've seen that clip a few times, and the close up cuts to Richard are so awkward and he's getting annoyed with her expressing her own interests and dreams. She was almost too loyal a person, to the point where she had to take some serious blows to her own emotional self and overall direction of where she maybe wanted her life to go. Just think of her star shining so bright in a musical!
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
What shocks me the most is, forget the music, he was her BROTHER, but so far away from her in terms of wishing her well, saying "hey if you want to do this, I'm right behind you". He was, and still is, absolutely locked into the Carpenters as a career, to the detriment of everything else. In their heyday, he missed out, she missed out. And it's such a shame. In Randy's book, he's quoted as telling her that her solo album was "sh*t". I'm sorry, but that tells you all you need to know about him as a person. In my wildest dreams, I would never say that to my sister, whatever her endeavour.
RainyDays
Active Member
Their story to me is so compelling because their was then and still is today an aura of darkness and mystery surrounding them, though in individual ways. I have no idea how ANYBODY could treat Karen that way -- the sweetest, kindest, most considerate soul -- especially her closest blood. There is still A LOT we still probably do not know, which makes Karen's story even more enigmatic. And yes, the smallest of nasty gestures show Richard's true nature and that last shot at a glimmer of independance through her album was destroyed mainly by Dick (ha!) and weakened her will power a whole bunch.
All of these comments are spot-on.
The 1996 NY Times article about the solo album mentioned a phone call Richard made to Itchie Ramone. He wanted to know if there was a dedication anyplace. Itchie un-earthed Karen's notes, and found it...."Dedicated to my brother Richard with all my heart". When Itchie read that to him, he bawled into the phone. So, obviously, he has some regret in the way it was handled. So sad.
The 1996 NY Times article about the solo album mentioned a phone call Richard made to Itchie Ramone. He wanted to know if there was a dedication anyplace. Itchie un-earthed Karen's notes, and found it...."Dedicated to my brother Richard with all my heart". When Itchie read that to him, he bawled into the phone. So, obviously, he has some regret in the way it was handled. So sad.
RainyDays
Active Member
I read that too in LGB, and deep down he knows what he did to her and the group, but it's in his nature to simply pretend for the most part, that it doesn't exist.
Here we are again - a thread about singles that shouldn't have been singles, degrading down into sheer, unadulterated Richard-bashing. We've been down this road many times before. See this thread from two years ago, Richard - from Villain to Anti-Christ.
Harry
Harry
RainyDays
Active Member
Excuse us, Harry -- though it just goes to show the unfavorable general opinion of his (true) personal character....but back to the singles then!
Anybody who's a real Richard hater can't be a true Carpenters fan. Sure, I still believe he could have done more to support Karen with the solo debacle. Nobody's perfect. Not even a Carpenter.
That being said, I greatly admire his talent and his contribution to the Carpenters. As Karen said herself, "There's no K.C. without R.C." I don't agree with that point, though I do know she was very devoted to him and loved him dearly. He obviously loved Karen very much, and it had to be hell on Earth to see her go through her decline.
And even though I would love to hear everything in the vault, I am eternally grateful for what he has released since Karen's passing. It's something like 75 songs featuring Karen's leads!
So, if you're reading, Richard, THANK YOU.
That being said, I greatly admire his talent and his contribution to the Carpenters. As Karen said herself, "There's no K.C. without R.C." I don't agree with that point, though I do know she was very devoted to him and loved him dearly. He obviously loved Karen very much, and it had to be hell on Earth to see her go through her decline.
And even though I would love to hear everything in the vault, I am eternally grateful for what he has released since Karen's passing. It's something like 75 songs featuring Karen's leads!
So, if you're reading, Richard, THANK YOU.
RainyDays
Active Member
My sentiment exactly -- he is a hugely talented man who has helped enrich and bring joy to ours and many lives, and will continue for many years. He greatly understood Karen's talent and music in general so that was a major contribution. Though, I still stand by my opinion of him personally, my opinion of him professionally is very high and we owe him many thanks for knowing how to properly utilize his gift.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
He's a genuis professionally, no doubt about it, but I'm with you there.
Back to the singles, what about the songs released after Karen's passing? What's everyone's take on Make Believe It's Your First Time and Your Baby Doesn't Love You Any More? The problem with VOTH is that there wasn't much in the way of commercially viable singles on the album anyway. Does anyone remember what the critics said about their release at the time? My favourite from the album, Now, was released in other territories as a single, but didn't go anywhere chart-wise.
UK
Brazil
Having been a radio PD at that time, and with friends in the A&M promotion department, I can tell you that the label really believed "All You Get From Love" would do well and they were hoping that "Calling Occupants" would be a left-field hit timed to coincide with the release of "Close Encounters of the Third Kind". Didn't work that way, but they really thought they had one, if not two radio hits.
newvillefan
I Know My First Name Is Stephen
I think most of us feel that 'Love Song' is the one single that flopped which should have been a top 5 single Interesting that 'Occupants' was a big hit in the UK though, I think audiences there got the connection A&M hoped for as you mention. Interesting stuff.
What gets me is that here in Detroit on WOMC, "Love Song" was in constant rotation, played once every DJ shift, for the few months it was out. You would have thought it was burning up the charts the way they were playing it. In fact, I was up on one of my teenaged insomnia-ridden nights and didn't fall asleep until they played it at 3:45am.
On the other hand, "Calling Occupants" I heard only once on the radio. Neat song but...I never ever pictured it being a hit. "Sweet Sweet Smile" easily could have been a single; that countrified "twang" just may have been the gimmick needed to hustle it up the charts.
'Sweet, Sweet Smile' got to #44 on the Top 100 in early 1978. And I believe it got to #6 on Billboard's country chart.
I heard "All You Get From Love Is A Love Song" from time to time on AM Top 40, but not on FM Top 40 in Kansas City. But "Occupants" I did hear on the popular FM Top 40 station, KBEQ-104FM, which still exists today, but is now a country station.
I heard "All You Get From Love Is A Love Song" from time to time on AM Top 40, but not on FM Top 40 in Kansas City. But "Occupants" I did hear on the popular FM Top 40 station, KBEQ-104FM, which still exists today, but is now a country station.
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