What broke up the original Tijuana Brass?

[Mike Blakesley]

I always thought the "tired" sound of some of the later TJB records was done on purpose to give it more of a jaunty, laid-back, just sittin' around playin' kind of sound. Listen to a tune like "Ob La Di, Ob La Da," if that was played the same way "Tijuana Taxi" was, it just wouldn't sound right.

The later records sound much more spontaneous to me, where the earlier ones up thru WHAT NOW MY LOVE seem to be more thought-out-in-advance sounding.

Now I am not a trumpet player (the only instrument I play is the stereo system) so I could be way off base here, but I think the "brightness" of Herb's sound comes thru when it needs to. I always thought he maybe just wasn't using as much wind on those later records as the early ones. Which I guess could be caused by tired-ness...but you'd think, with him being the perfectionist he's known to be, if he wasn't happy with the sound he wouldn't have released the music!

Who knows? Maybe HE hates those records because of that sound, and that's why we haven't seen some of them reissued?! Hope that's not the case, because a couple of my favorite albums fall into that "later TJB" period!

 

[Harry]

One thing for sure, even if Herb was tired/worn-out/disillusioned/bored in the later period TJB recordings, the other musicians were not. Listen to a song like "Anna" on THE BRASS ARE COMIN'. Nick and Julius never sounded better!

Harry
...always looking for the positives, online...

[edited to fix stupid mistake of which album "Anna" is found on]

 

[Rudy]

Having played an instrument or two in the past, I find it difficult to describe exactly what it is about a certain tone that would make me say it's "tired," without getting overly technical. Someone with trumpet chops could probably do better than I could. I can explain all day why someone like Kenny G's sound is so horrid, but I don't know if it would make much sense without a background in saxophone theory!

Still remains that some of my favorite recordings are on the later albums! I like Summertime regardless of his tone. That may be a good example in fact: listen to the slow section of "Hurts So Bad." At some points, his tone almost breaks up, like there wasn't much breath support behind the tone. If you have a good clean copy of this, too, crank it up really loud and you can hear another trumpet part noodling in the background. Could have been a separate "take" of that section that either wasn't properly erased, or was faintly put into the mix accidentally.

NP: Crusaders, "Rural Renewal"

 

[Captaindave]

Hi, guys,

I do, in fact, have the trumpet "chops" mentioned in the post above.

I like the recordings that we are talking about here on this thread - make no mistake about that. I really like Slick, Abanda, Panama, etc. And I think that Herb plays the songs in the certain style that gives them their special characteristic sound.

However, I am not impressed by Herb Alpert's sound on these albums - as much as I do like them - from the point of view of a trumpet player. My opinion is that there are very few formally trained, experienced trumpet players who would say that the trumpet playing on these albums is of high quality, especially in regard to the production of good tone. Most would probably not regard the sound of the trumpet on these recordings as representative of excellent, professional tone quality in an absolute sense of the concept. If you were a student of a qualified teacher, or were a student in a trumpet program at a college or university, this sound would not be tolerated if you wanted to earn your degree in music, especially performance. You probably would win no professional auditions for any "legitimate" type playing positions;i.e., orchestral seats, etc.

While there is some expected and understandable variation in tonal quality, depending on the player and the type of music being played, it is the sound you hear when you listen to players like Arturo Sandoval, Doc Severinsen, Maurice Andre, Al Hirt, Rafael Mendez, Louis Armstrong, etc. to name a few. It is clear and open and resonant.

This sound is characterized by such words as clear, open, centered, compact, heroic, brilliant, rich, and especially the word "resonant." The tone quality displayed on the albums we are talking about here does not fit those descriptions. The player here sounds like he or she is having some kind of embouchure difficulty and cannot produce the kind of rich, full tone that is characteristic of a trumpet when played with proper technique and correct concept of tone. Now, I want to repeat that I like these and several of the songs on them. But I have played trumpet long enough and studied long enough with qualified instructors that I can say the tone quality isn't as I was taught to play or as would be acceptable in other serious playing or instructional situations.

Listen to some of the players I have mentioned above - I recommend Sandoval and Severinsen as promininet examples and then compare. There is an enormous difference, regardless of the fact that we are talking about significant stylistic differences.

I have no idea what Herb had in mind or if this sound was planned or if this is just the way he was playing at the time. But the fuzziness and sort of airy, unfocused, unclear sound sure sounds like a lip problem to me - I have gone through stages like this and it is really hard to get a good tone when the embouchure is not functioning properly. After a period of rest, the sound usually returns. But it usually cannot be forced. When the lip is "blown out" so to speak, it requires rest and recuperation. It is almost like treating an injury, which oftentimes it is. Long and intense peroids of playing can cause periods of "burnout," so to speak, similar to other situations where much intensity of effort and insufficient rest occur.

My opinion is that Herb has recovered his characteristic sound with FANDANGO. Here, he is playing an open horn and it sounds like he has restored his concept of sound that shows he does have outstanding tone quality - like in the "good old days."

I feel it is hard to judge some of the solo albums of the seventies, as some of these are too "buried' in tone altering, studio electronics.

 

[Rudy]

To my ear, it sounded like the two TJB albums were almost like a recovery phase. The tone is better, still not *quite* up to snuff, but definitely improving. More confident, for sure. By the time of the Masekela albums, it feels good and solid again. The music, too, is very energetic and uplifting...which is always a good catalyst to playing better.

 

[Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar]

Standards seem to be set so much higher for trumpeters than they are for guitarist, drummers, and singers. As a second rate trumpet player, :goofygrin: I will never and won't perform for other trumpet players espesially the university crowd. YUK! I loved the way George Harrison played guitar, and I'm a Santana fan, but I know guitar players that cream these guys in chops. My lead trumpet player friends cannot listen to a song with out critisizing the articulation, range, power, or whatever. Some people need to just lighten up and enjoy da music or not. Paz amigos...Jay

 

[Captaindave]

I'm with you, Jay, on the "playing for other musicians" thing - especially other trumpet players.

I played for a while in a large church orchestra - of all things - and found exactly the same thing. The trumpet section there was filled with all kinds of egos and lots of concerns about range. The assumption was that the best player was the one who could play the highest notes. Various players who were music teachers were the most obnoxious. There was a real "pecking order" so to speak.

Tremendous lack of humility and cliques everywhere. The level of arrogance at times was so high that you needed wings just to be able to stay above it.

To some of these people, everything is like the solo and ensemble contest.

Needless to say, I got rid of that gig...and I don't regret it for a minute...

I have always enjoyed the TJB music and really couldn't care less about the critical opinions of other musicians. That is true of my own playing as well.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

My lead trumpet player friends cannot listen to a song with out critisizing the articulation, range, power, or whatever. Some people need to just lighten up and enjoy da music or not.

I know what you mean. When I was at Berklee I was constantly ridiculed for listening to Herb Alpert (Beyond was out at the time). They kept whining about how Herb doesn't play like Dizzy or Miles or Freddie Hubbard or whomever. I had to keep telling them that while I agree Herb is not the best trumpeter in the world, few can make the quality records that he can. But these young guys in college aren't impressed unless someone plays 3,000 notes per second. It's their loss IMHO.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Captaindave]

Yeah, and there are some "older" guys who are hung up of the same stuff - how fast, how high, etc., especially how high....

Some trumpet players seem judge ability strictly by range alone. That seems especially true in the high school age range...

You'd think they were comparing specs on race cars...

I am mostly impressed by sound/tone. If the sound is good, I usually like it...assuming it is not Kenny G or something like that....

 

[Rudy]

I am mostly impressed by sound/tone. If the sound is good, I usually like it...assuming it is not Kenny G or something like that....

Well, even Kenny G has terrible sound to a saxophone player's ears!

I remember those days in jazz band, too--the trumpet players all straining to hit high F (and usually only hitting high D), and nobody wanted to use a "screech" mouthpiece because their teachers didn't recommend it. I don't know why, but I've always liked the high octave/high octane sound of high trumpets. Maynard's better bands and recordings use it sensibly...but on others, you can tell it's just here for effect. If I'd played trumpet, I probably would have acclimated to something like a Jet-Tone mouthpiece, if only as a challenge. And hey, I'm never too old to pick up a trumpet and try it!

The highest trumpet note I've ever heard is from Maynard Ferguson...no surprise, eh? On Perez Prado's "Voodoo Suite" (which features Prado's band with Shorty Rogers', and a young mid 50's Maynard sitting in on lead trumpet), there is a phrase near the beginning where he hits a double-high F#. (Concert E.) I've never even heard that on any of his own recordings!