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What is so uncool about melody and good musicianship?

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daveK

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I have some friends, a couple in their early 30s, who generally have good taste in music. They're really into Elvis, the Beatles and the Beach Boys. Other artists they are passionate about include Smashing Pumpkins, Guided By Voices, Coldplay and Neutral Milk Hotel, so they like a healthy combination of old and new stuff.
We get together occasionally with other friends, load up the disc changer on shuffle and play cards. Everyone contributes to the "music mix" bringing a favorite disc from home. I make a lot of compilations from various discs in my collection, usually confined to a specific decade such as the 60s or 70s. I've noticed that when a selection from one of my discs plays, say a 60s collection, that if it's a Kinks or Byrds track or the like, that everyone gets into it. But if it's Herb Alpert or Sergio Mendes or Roger Williams or Petula Clark or the Ray Charles Singers that everyone seems indifferent to it. My friend has even mentioned that if the player plays too many of these "easy listening" songs in the space of an hour or two that when it finally throws down something like Hendrix or the Stones that it's like "a much needed breath of fresh air". So I would never think of bringing a full disc of TJB to the "mix party".
While I enjoy the other discs in the mix, be it Nine Inch Nails or Audioslave or whatever, it's apparent to me that most rock bands today have no sense of melody in their compositions. A Smashing Pumpkins track can drone on and on for 7 minutes with no hook and no melody and everyone's fine but 3 minutes of Andy Williams singing "Happy Heart" puts everyone on edge.
Why is this? Is it just totally uncool for anyone under the age of 60 to listen to any artist that isn't considered rock? Another reason I ask is that oldies stations who specialize in 50s and 60s music seem to shy away from easy listening as well even though at least 50% of the hits from these decades fall under that genre.
So is it that I enjoy the easy side of oldies more because I grew up listening to it and they probably grew up only listening to Beatles and Zeppelin?
 
My answer to your subject's question is, "Nothing at all. Play away."

I think it was Duke Ellington who once said that, at bottom, there's only two kinds of music: good and bad. By that I think he meant that every genre—classical, jazz, rock, whatever—has its own integrity and right to exist, and he'd listen to anything whose musicianship was well executed.
 
daveK said:
What is so uncool about melody and good musicianship?

That it is NOT what people listen to Led Zeppelin, KISS, Motley Crue and Aerosmith for...BUT, what THESE "cool" artists, as well as others I haven't mentioned ARE all about!

If I play any Easy Listening music, chances are I'll be told "It ain't got no "beat" to it!", meaning I shouldn't listen to it...

"Personal Taste", I Guess... :|


Dave
 
I think that there has been a "darkness" in our culture for the last 30 to 35 years and even more now than ever. Some people seem to be afraid of hearing music that is actually uplifting. These new young artists all look and act like they are all suffering in the richest and safest country in the world. The "guitar rock genre" has infiltrated our "yutes". I'm concerned. Another Juan Oskar rant.........later....J
 
What's up with "Happy Heart" anyway? To me the chorus sounds a lot like "Tijuana Taxi". Was this Andy's answer to Herb's abstract version of "Moon River"?

David,
I's my happy heart you hear, there'a this happy honkin' sound, and it's all because you're here, it's the world renown Tijuana Taxi cab..............
 
thetijuanataxi said:
What's up with "Happy Heart" anyway? To me the chorus sounds a lot like "Tijuana Taxi". Was this Andy's answer to Herb's abstract version of "Moon River"?

"Happy Heart" was composed by James Last and Jackie Rae. I guess you'd have to ask them about any similiarities to "Tijuana Taxi".
 
There's just no accounting for other people's musical tastes and you can't do anything to change it. I have a good friend who's a rock fan -- he likes almost any rock and roll -- but he hates the Doobie Brothers. I am a Doobies fan from way back, and I've tried explaining to him how it's so cool that they have two drummers (this friend of mine plays drums), and told him about the complexity of some of their arrangements, the harmonies, the longevity of the band, everything.... he still thinks they suck. By the same token, he loves Van Halen and I've never been big on them. So it goes. Gotta live with it, I guess.
 
It's a good question and about as easily answered as "why is one person's favorite color blue and another's favorite is red?" It's just personal taste (or a lack thereof in the eyes or ears of a dissenter).

I'm in agreement that melody is important. To me it certainly is. Take Led Zeppelin for example. My generation was all about that music. Not me. I'm crawling out of my skin within one minute of any of their "classic" songs of screaming and making noise with guitars, bass and drums. But their last album, In Through The Out Door is one that I like -- it has melody, singing as opposed to screaming vocals and decent arrangements. Yet it is the one LP most Zep fans will tell you sucks and was probably the poorest selling of all.

A friend of mine loves Janis Jopin. Personally I get no pleasure out of listening to what sounds like a woman destroying her own vocal chords by screaming the way she does (and calling it "music" no less). Yet when I listen to Lani Hall my friend describes Hall's voice the same way I describe Joplins -- like two cats fighting in a back alley. Go figure -- the two vocal styles are about as different as they possibly come.

Don't even get me started with modern music - there's a generation gap growing between my 45 year-old self and my 13-year-old daughter. But it's still fun to put on The Dickies (1977-81) and have her bop into the room thinking I have some Green Day record she doesn't know about! On radio these days there's one song she likes that has Jamie Foxx sampled on it -- I can't understand what he says in the sample but I mock it with a hearty Godzilla "AArrr-Eeee" much to my daughter's chagrin. As occaisional poster DJ (Music First) here says, "Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art." I like to point to the rap section at my local store and say, "Hey, all the 'C's fell off the section dividers over there."

--Mr Bill
whose favorite color is blue, if you were wondering.
 
Mr Bill said:
Take Led Zeppelin for example. My generation was all about that music. Not me. I'm crawling out of my skin within one minute of any of their "classic" songs of screaming and making noise with guitars, bass and drums. But their last album, In Through The Out Door is one that I like -- it has melody, singing as opposed to screaming vocals and decent arrangements. Yet it is the one LP most Zep fans will tell you sucks and was probably the poorest selling of all.

I agree about "Out Door". I do like Zeppelin and always have but sometimes I feel like if I have to sit through "Stairway To Heaven" or "Kashmir" again I'd claw my own eyes out. I never get tired of "South Bound Suarez", "Hot Dog" or "All My Love" though.
And Cadillac ruined "Rock And Roll" for me.
And yes, my Zeppelin crazy friends think "Out Door" sucks.
 
I agree Zep is overplayed on classic-rock stations. But you guys are forgetting LED ZEP III, which had alot of nice songs with melodies. I admit to enjoying their classics though -- screaming and all -- when I'm in the right mood.

But I can't stand Janis Joplin or Bob Dylan. Dylan is a great writer, but his "singing" drives me up the frickin' wall.
 
Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar said:
I think that there has been a "darkness" in our culture for the last 30 to 35 years and even more now than ever. Some people seem to be afraid of hearing music that is actually uplifting. These new young artists all look and act like they are all suffering in the richest and safest country in the world. The "guitar rock genre" has infiltrated our "yutes". I'm concerned. Another Juan Oskar rant.........later....J

This is a great thread....I agree with all of it, especially the above quote. I liked 10,000 Maniacs somewhat, but Natalie Merchant has yet to put a single melody in anything off all her solo records and yet has sold millions. The same with many others. I think some of it is a hipness factor, some of it is ignorance, and some of it is, honestly, the associating of music we like with good memories, and fond feelings for the artist's best work, even if it's not all up to that standard (example: Sergio Mendes' LOVE MUSIC was the first album I ever owned, so I still enjoy it - but I'd never play it for the uninitiated....they'd think I was nuts). So the Duke was right - but the definition of 'good' and 'bad' is the rub...:)

JTCW
 
The only recent rock song I actually like is CLINT EASTWOOD by THE GORILLAS. I know that it's loaded with drug references and a couple of the words have to be edited for airplay, but the melody is actually pretty good, and the arrangement is well thought-out and has some substance behind it. Somebody actually took a little time and put some effort into making a record...and it was popular!

Too many companies are out after a quick buck, so they create--if that's really the word--a rehash of a proven seller and sample a bit of something good; then ruin it with a bunch of nonsense lyrics that contain more shock value than any kind of substance and add bumpa-bumpa drums...

I may be a bit prejudiced, but I think that the best pop music came from the mid to late '60's...there weren't a lot of electronic instruments available yet, so the melody and arrangement were at the forefront. You couldn't count on flashy, catchy newfangled sounds or a lot of editing tricks to cover up a bad melody like you can now.

What's good to me? Something that is well-thought-out...that says "Listen to ME...", with a good arrrangement and production effort behind it.

And if I hear STAIRWAY TO HEAVEN one more time.......



Dan
 
If you have XM radio, listen to Channel 22, "Mix." It has a lot of current music, but no hip-hop or rap. You'll be surprised at how much melody is still out there. I know I was.
 
Dave, you go right ahead and play your music your way. I couldn't agree with you more. I love every artist you mentioned. I own about 90 Roger Williams albums...Andy Williams, Herb & TJB, Claudine Longet, even the Partridge Family. I also own all of the albums by groups such as X, Cheap Trick, Nirvana, Interpol, XTC... Music is supposed to be able to reach deep, deep inside you and touch you...affect you in some way. For me, that can happen with Janis Joplin, Lani Hall or Marie Osmond. All in the same day! So, I say your friends are not being 100% truthful with you or with themselves. They're probably just trying to be "cool" by shunning anything with a melody or a musical structure. You go right ahead and enjoy music YOUR WAY. By the way, I love Andy Williams singing "Happy Heart". It's a wonderful recording of a great song and it was a huge hit as well.
Bobby Vox
 
There's a generational component to all of this too. Each generation of kids seems to gravitate towards whatever will drive their parents crazy.

Growing up in the late '50s, early '60s, we tended to latch onto rock'n'roll. Actually, I was a bit late to that particular party, being one who didn't mind liking stuff that my parents also liked - hence my love for '60s "MOR" stuff like the TjB, Mendes, Carpenters, etc. These were all records that my parents also could get into and understand.

I noticed a trend in the '80s, when rock'n'roll was still very much alive and "in", though it was becoming less melodic. I noticed that teens and their parents could often identify with the same current music, and it was almost an invitation for something else to come along and drive a wedge between the generations. It took a while, but ultimately rap and hip-hop did just that.

These days parents will tend to prefer the rock music they grew up with, while the kids are into hip-hop, (c)rap, and whatever else their parents can't stand. One can only wonder what might top the music charts in another twenty years when the children of today's kids exert their preferences, and look for that which their parents cannot stomach.

I learned a long time ago that my preferences are just that - mine, and no-one else's. And I've learned to embrace all of the music that I love, regardless of what anyone else out there happens to think.

Harry
NP: "Make Your Own Kind Of Music" - 'Mama' Cass Elliot
 
It's what the music's about, too-- "Sappy Love Songs" don't cut it with people (MY Generation--except ME!) who unfortunately take to songs about a different subject matter...

I, unfortunately ENJOY what "music that's UNCOOL"--Music WITH A "melody" and "good musicianship", regardless of what anyone may think! I don't consider this kind of music ...er, what "she" called it--as I outgrew the typical Rock 'N' Roll that I grew up with; my musical tastes have matured, and well, what I listen to now, I'm "stuck" with--and happy to be!


Dave

~) <-...Hmmmm....why did I just "LAY in there" for seven or eight years??!! I missed something there, back then...!! :sad:
 
Yes, I do believe that the musical tastes and listening sensibilities are to some extent generational and age related. I also think much is driven by peer influences and also what is available to hear at any given time.

For example, my parents preferred the easy listening music of the thirties, forties, and fifties. They grew up in the late twenties and thirties, were well into adulthood in the forties, and the music of that time period was what they had available to hear. It was the same music that most everyone else of their generation was listening to also.

Fast forward to me...I was born in 1951 and grew up in the sixties, graduating from high school in 1969. I spent my time listening to the music of the sixties, and it today remains "the music of choice" for me and my wife. I think that the influence of my parents, and what I was exposed to in my home, had some impact on my tendency to not like the "rockier" side of rock. Also, being a trumpet payer back in those days rather than a guitar player, I leaned more toward the softer and more melodious side of pop music. That included Herb Alpert. Many of my friends at that time liked the same kind and sound of music also; thus the peer influence on me.

Although my father, a music teacher, grew to appreciate the music of the Beatles in his lifetime, he never "claimed" it as his own because it wasn't the sound and style of his generation, and he wasn't "educated into and socialized into" that particular music from my generation. However, it was my father who introduced me to the music of Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass about the time I started taking trumpet lessons...he could see that would be a contemporary sound that I would learn to like and perhaps increase my motivation to play the trumpet - an instrument that he could relate to more so than the electric guitar which was so popular in the sixties.

With all that said, I do NOT think that rock and pop music has "made progress" in the last generation - shall we say the last three decades since the end of the sixties? IMHO, most of it is just plain BORING. We can say that some of my biases are age related and generational, and I will accept that. But, I also think that music has some timeless and ageless qualities that should be able to be recognized at any time and anywhere. Recognizable form, melody, harmony, structure, etc, are among the things I am talking about here. Not all "sounds" deserve to be called "music;" let alone GOOD music. For example, rap/hip-hop is a "sound" - a "social commentary" perhaps, but I disdain to call it good music.

I have not seen much of anything really HAPPENING in music since the sixties. I mean... there was the opening of the rock and roll era in the fifties and then there was Elvis.. then the Beatles...then what??? I mean, there's been a lot of stuff, but what has transformed the world and changed the landscape of music since that time in any kind of similar way? I don't see or hear anything...

My point here is that I can accept the idea that all generations and age groups have their "own" music. But, I think that just like much of the rest of the content of the culture of the late 20th and early 21st centuries, a lot of what is called music isn't worthy of that name and title, and is pretty inferior when it comes to quality and worthiness of my time and tastes. I do not listen to contemporary rock and pop music anymore; pretty much only the music of "my generation." :)
 
This is an awesome thread. I'm 41 now, and I felt uncomfortable telling kids in high school that I liked the Monkees and the Kingston Trio in the days of Hall & Oates and Led Zeppelin. My Alpert addiction was only revealed for a short time in my freshman year when "Rise" was a big hit.

I don't know what the hang up on TJB music is for some 60's pop fans. The sound is just as "California" as the Beach Boys, the Association and the 5th Dimension.

OK - as for the "others" mentioned here, here's my 2 cents (I know I'm amongst fellow fans)...
LED ZEPPELIN's IN THRU THE OUT DOOR was the first album where the songs were arragned so Robert Plant didn't have to scream and try and hit notes that his voice just CAN'T reach. It was the first (and only) album of theirs that I almost liked.
JANIS JOPLIN would have been laughed off the stage if she was actually black. People were only intrigued because she was white and sang that way - that's it! Give me someone who deserved the kudos like Julie Driscoll or Aretha Franklin.
NATALIE MERCHANT - I don't get it...I just don't get it. A band I was in opened for 10,000 Maniacs in 1983 and I didn't get it then either.
 
This truly is a great thread. Although in my late 30's, I do have some rather eccentric tastes in music. As a longtime hi-fi enthusiast, I enjoy music that has nice production qualities, which also displays great musicianship.

Steely Dan is one of my favorites, in particular, Katy Lied through Gaucho. The Donald Fagen Solo lp "The Nightfly" is perhaps my all-time favorite lp. If I had to answer the question about only having 1 cd on a desert island, I'd have to go with my Baja Marimba collection. I can listen to them forever, without it growing tiresome.

My tastes include Tony Mottola, Anita Kerr Singers, ELO, Ramsey Lewis, Moon Mullican, Merrill Moore, Ray Charles, Ricky Nelson, Professor Longhair, Dr. John.....well, you get the idea. I'm all over the map.

Some of the earlier posts had some great observations.

Janis Joplin---I just don't see the talent. A drunken, stoned white woman screaming.....I just don't get it.

Any type of heavy metal....I've seen some Nine Inch Nails videos, and Marilyn Manson videos and I don't know that I've heard any music. Noise, not music.

Someone mentioned Robert Plant. I think The Honeydrippers mini-ep was one of the best things he's ever done. He has a passion for music of this genre, and he should visit it again.

I'm finished now!

Michael H.
 
Captain Dave... After the Beatles...then what? How about Elton John? No one can dismiss the excellent songwriting of Elton and Bernie. How about James Taylor? How about Carole King? These artists helped to create a literal soundscape for the seventies. True, nothing is going to "shake the world" like the Beatles did and the British invasion. We have to remember that part of what made that time so vital was the time itself. Rock music was still pretty much in it's infancy. The world events going on at that time helped to make and shape the music and the direction the groups were going. Like the anti-authority, anti-war...anti-government movements, etc...

I agree that there has been no real "progression" in pop/rock music since the 80s. Maybe all of the great songs have already been written and everything now is just a re-hash and a re-work of what's come before.

I suppose we'll all find out as time goes on...

Bobby Vox
 
whippedflea said:
I don't know what the hang up on TJB music is for some 60's pop fans. The sound is just as "California" as the Beach Boys, the Association and the 5th Dimension.

And all that is some great music also! Either for dancing or just listening. I could many more like them to that list...
 
Bobbyvox said:
Captain Dave... After the Beatles...then what? How about Elton John? No one can dismiss the excellent songwriting of Elton and Bernie. How about James Taylor? How about Carole King? These artists helped to create a literal soundscape for the seventies. True, nothing is going to "shake the world" like the Beatles did and the British invasion. We have to remember that part of what made that time so vital was the time itself. Rock music was still pretty much in it's infancy. The world events going on at that time helped to make and shape the music and the direction the groups were going. Like the anti-authority, anti-war...anti-government movements, etc...

I agree that there has been no real "progression" in pop/rock music since the 80s. Maybe all of the great songs have already been written and everything now is just a re-hash and a re-work of what's come before. The sixties were an absolutely extraordinary time to be alive, and having lived and grew up then, there has been nothing even remotely like it since...

I suppose we'll all find out as time goes on...

Bobby Vox

I will acknowledge the work and popularity of these musicians, but I think that I probably am reflecting the fact that I seem to have a generational "threshold," or "demarcation line" so to speak, that is drawn about the year 1970. In other words, I am product of the sixties, and it heavily influences my musical preferences. It may be hard to believe, but I think there is a big difference between the music of the sixties and the seventies. Especially the later seventies, just as in the early and later sixties. What I am saying is that I don't really get excited about Messrs John and Taylor and Ms King, even thought they did, and continue, to make their mark on the musical landscape. And, I will agree that they have produced much of worth and popularity...it just doesn't "ring my personal bell" very much. Because I experienced the Beatles and all the rest of what happened back then first hand, and lived through the sixties "experience," that is my frame of reference, and what has come since somewhat pales by comparison in my eyes. In mean, there were 73 million people glued to their TVs the night the Beatles first played the Ed Sullivan show in 1964...those were heady, vibrant, and tremendously exciting times...I agree, the times themselves had some kind of role to play. I remember seeing pictures the next day in the newspaper of the local politicians wearing Beatle wigs...that kind of stuff isn't happening anymore. These things that were going on musically became the headlines of the newspapers - almost like a huge jolt of electricity to the culture, and virtually eclipsed everything else, and pretty much for the remainder of the decade. Music was the great common denominator of youth, and I remember the huge sensation in school after the Beatles were first seen in the United States. It happened, and then it just never quit...for the remainder of the decade...almost like a never-ending party. Then, about 1970 or thereabouts, it was kind of like the lights went out...

Yes, absolutely, the sixties were a time that has never been duplicated, and the social and political climate of the times no doubt played a great part in what those times actually were like, and the music that was created. Having lived and grew up then, it was an absolutely extraordinary time to be alive...nothing even remotely like it since.

I do also sometimes wonder if all the great songs have been written, and nothing more remains...

Just a trip down memory lane...thanks for your patience. :D
 
Well, to throw my mite's worth into this, I will say that this website and forum in particular have given me freedom to voice my passion about certain genres of music that others my age generally ignore.

I respect the tastes of other 20-somethings like myself, but I also try to expose them to my great loves in jazz: CTi, A&M jazz, and west coast cool from the 1960s. Some of my friends know that I have an great liking for electric jazz from the late 60s. I love and embrace eclecticism- right now, I'm listening to TJB's Christmas album, right after giving Nat Adderley's You, Baby several spins.

The sixties and seventies have always intrigued me. Listening to these albums, then coming to the Corner to hear of stories from those gone days, gives me greater depth of perspective when thinking about the music. Some people today would laugh, for instance, to hear that Nat Adderley used an electric cornet. I appreciate the experimentation and the baroque arrangements on many CTi albums. While some around here may disagree with me about the stylings of Don Sebesky, I appreciate some of his lush strings- but not all the time.

So, in short, thank you to all here in the Corner.
 
I suspect that anyone who visits and posts here will likely have more eclectic musical tastes than those who would never darken this Forum's door.

My earliest musical memories were shaped by listening to LPs that my father received by belonging to the Columbia Record Club of the early '60s. I learned to appreciate Mahalia Jackson and Leonard Bernstein's New York Philharmonic. I still appreciate them and, depending on my mood, will listen also to the Beatles, Bruno Walter, Sinatrta, Horowitz, Jobim, Puente, Mantovani, Joplin, Brubeck, Johnny Cash, John Rutter, Bernard Herrmann, Ray Charles, Judy Collins, Charlie Parker, Chet Atkins, Anonymous 4, Rosemary Clooney, and many others. Being a child of that era, I enjoy well crafted songs that are performed with intelligence and taste, technical proficiency, joy, and heart. The latter are the same reasons, I guess, that I still love the TJB and BMB.

If that makes of me a geezer, without a post-80s sensibility, then so be it. Hard of hearing I may be, but I still can distinguish music from racket. If one listener's racket is another's rhapsody, then a chacun son gout. I'm told that people stormed out after hearing Ravel's Bolero, Stravinsky's Sacre du Printemps, and Dylan on an electric guitar.
 
To Dave K:

Thank you for mirroring my own thoughts to the letter!!! What's wrong with melody? What's wrong with an up-beat tune?I'm 56,and those in my circle can't stand the TJB, their contemporaries, or their predecessors. I've been listening the the TJB's music for years, and I will keep listening to it. I cite the reply from NUMERO CINCO---"I still can distinguish music from racket."
And yes, Mantovani ranks up there too. :) :)
 
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