What Miles says about Al Hirt

[Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar]

"He's a very good trumpet player, but that's some corny-ass sh** he plays... He's like a white Uncle Tom." -- Miles Davis

 

[Mike]

Perhaps Mr. Miles Davis should be reminded of something most mothers teach their children: "If you have nothing nice to say about a person, say nothing at all". I wouldn't exactly call his statement "constructive criticism".

 

[Captaindave]

I'm not impressed by people who make statements like that. What's the point? What purpose is served?

Maybe that's one of the reasons I am not very familiar with Miles Davis and his music...

I have always liked Al Hirt - both his music and his ability as a trumpet player, which was pretty phenomenal. Not many players ever get even close to Al in ability and skill.

I guess Mr. Davis and I will just have to agree to disagree. I'm sure he doesn't care, and guess what? Neither do I...

 

[Captain Bacardi]

You guys are making too much of this. Miles was just being Miles. And that quote was probably from back in the 60's. He was critical of just about everything. But there's no mistake in his music. Most of it was innovative and you would be wise to listen to his stuff.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Mr Bill]

You guys are making too much of this. Miles was just being Miles. And that quote was probably from back in the 60's. He was critical of just about everything. But there's no mistake in his music. Most of it was innovative and you would be wise to listen to his stuff.

The good Cap'n is right. Miles was quite acerbic when it ame to expressing opinions of his musical contemporaries. In fact, the quote used on Herb's site ("You hear three notes and you know it's Herb Alpert" -- Miles Davis) was actually from an interview where Miles slammed pretty much every recording trumpet player of the day. That Herb uses it on his site shows that everyone knew Miles was just being Miles and that the underlying meaning was not really all that derogatory...

--Mr Bill
noting that folks named "Miles" tend to get short shrift for expressing their views -- like I.R.S.s Miles Copeland III

 

[Jazzy]

was miles dissing Herb Alpert with that quote? I took it as a complement. That shows Miles thought Herb had an individual style, something hard to pull off.

 

[bob knack]

Davis is welcome to his opinion. I bet Al could play anything Miles played but could Miles play what Al did? How about Al's chart on "I Love Paris" or some of his classical things? Think he could cut the charts?

 

[Mike]

The wonderful thing about this A&M Forum is that we can share our opinions on musicians, fans, and the music industry that supports them. We are entitled to our opinions, and shouldn’t step on others when theirs isn’t similar. Having said that, I’ll clarify my first remarks to Miles statement: Without a doubt Miles Davis is a certified genius. But, in my “opinion” that does not make him a model citizen. His drug abuse and poor manners seem to be as legendary as his ability to toot a horn. I am acquainted with his and Al Hirts music; I like both. What I don’t like is bad manners.

 

[Captaindave]

I'm with you, Mike...

IMO, that's part of Herb Alpert's appeal also - being a genuinely nice, sincere person - a "nice guy."

Greatness does not equate to, nor does it justify, rudeness. A key word is "respect."

I also think it's good to be able to disagree without becoming disagreeable...

 

[Captain Bacardi]

I bet Al could play anything Miles played but could Miles play what Al did? How about Al's chart on "I Love Paris" or some of his classical things? Think he could cut the charts?

Why would he want to? That's not what Miles was about. And I would disagree about Hirt playing anything Miles played. He might be able to play the notes, but not the style. These two guys are like oil and water. The Uncle Tom comments aside, Miles was essentially correct. Al Hirt had some great chops, but some of his material was a bit on the tepid side. Don't get me wrong, I liked a lot of Hirt's music, but there was a lot of corny stuff he did. But Hirt was more in tune to the popular stuff whereas Miles was seeking new turf. I think they both found what they were looking for.


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Without a doubt Miles Davis is a certified genius. But, in my “opinion” that does not make him a model citizen.

Ummm, who said anything about a "model citizen"? And who would be determining that? I always get a kick out of Miles' comments. Many of the PC folks take huge offense at times at what he says, but then the PC folks are usually a lost cause. I usually end up laughing at his comments. He always reminded me of a black Archie Bunker. Couldn't you just see Miles on All In The Family? Now that would be a show!


Capt. Bacardi

 

[Jay Maynes/Juan Oskar]

To my knowledge, Al Hirt never wrote any music. He was a classically trained player that was a great reader, & lead player that had a lot of jazz chops. I remember in an interview, Al Hirt saying that he would cringe when he would win the Playboy Jazz Trumpeter of the year because he knew Miles Davis, Pete Condoli etc. were out there.

AH did a recording in Los Angeles in 1963 that was not released until 1996 on to CD called "Brassman's Holiday". What amazing chops he had. Pee Wee Spitelera was on clarinet. I think you can hear some of the sound clips on Amazon.com. Later.................Jay

 

[bob knack]

You can't blame a guy for wanting to sell some records. I heard John Pizzerelli say recently that he's been trying to sell out for about twenty years.

Al had three big records with 'Java', 'Cotton Candy', and 'Sugar Lips'. It seemed either he or RCA kept trying to duplicate them for a number of years.

 

[jfiedler17]

You can't blame a guy for wanting to sell some records.

As I heard one artist who's newly been tagged a "sell-out" say recently, "If you don't want to SELL records ... WHY MAKE THEM?????"

Jeff F.

 

[Mike]

Well... so far, this thread has covered, a White Uncle Tom, a model citizen, a Black Archie Bunker, PC folks that are usually a lost cause, a drug abuser with bad manners, a certified genius, a sell-out, a classically trained player, and a lead player that had a lot of jazz chops; oh, and I`m sure I left out a few other things out -- sorry. Maybe we should try and resurect Miles and Al and have them go a few rounds in the ring... I bet that would settle this hilariousy to seriously strange thread. Well, what do you think?

 

[bob knack]

O.K. but I'm betting on the guy they nick-named 'Jumbo'.

 

[Mr Bill]

Or put them in the ring with a couple of those Sumo wrestelrs we have over here, right Mike? I think Hirt would outlast Miles by a few seconds in that situation!

--Mr Bill

 

[JOv2]

"He's a very good trumpet player, but that's some corny-ass sh** he plays... He's like a white Uncle Tom." -- Miles Davis

Fascinating post and thread... Here's the entire quote -- it came from a Leonard Feather 1968 Blindfold Test:

Al Hirt. Goin' To Chicago Blues (from Live at Carnegie Hall, RCA).

That's Al Hirt! I think he's a very good trumpet player. For anyone that feels that way, I guess he fits them. He's a good trumpet player, but that's some Corny-ass s--- he plays here.

They want him to be fat and white and funny and talented, but he ain't. They want something that looks good on Television; fat with a beard, and jovial and jolly. He's like a white Uncle Tom. And he's a nice guy; it's a drag. You know, white folk made Negroes Tom a long time ago by giving them money. To do this in from of some white people, to pay you to have that kind of personality, like him it's Tomming. I can't see why a guy like Al Hirt...I guess if he was thin he wouldn't do that.

Now, Harry James is a good trumpet player, and he never did Tom or no s--- like that. Harry had some feeling.

For a guy to shake his unattratctive body and think somebody thinks it's funny -- it ain't funny, it's disgusting. He can't entertain me like that; he can entertain some corny ofays, but all the colored folks I know should say, "Oh, f---! I don't want to hear that!"

 

[nightcat]

As much as Davis has always been less than respectful towards others, he has had some comments I would say are correct and that I agree with. Of bossa nova singer Joao Gilberto, Davis said... "that cat would sound good just reading a newspaper". About Stan Getz he commented... "We'd all play like that if we could".

The best comments he ever made was during a blindfold test given to him by Downbeat Magazine. They played him 5 different songs, not telling him who the artists are. He listens and then guesses who the artist is and comments on the music. In one blindfold test in the 60s, for the last song, they played something by Cecil Taylor. (Taylor is one of those way out avant garde pianists whose music many consider to be horrible noise). After listening to 30 seconds of the tune Davis said...

Take it off! That's some sad sh*t, man. In the first place, I hear some Charlie Parker cliches. . . . They don't even fit. Is that what the critics are digging? Them critics better stop having coffee. If there ain't nothing to listen to, they might as well admit it. Just to take something like that and say it's great, because there ain't nothing to listen to, that's like going out and getting a prostitute.

L.F.: This man said he was influenced by Duke Ellington.

M.D.: I don't give a sh*t! It must be Cecil Taylor. Right? I don't care who he's inspired by. That sh*t ain't nothing. In the first place he don't have the - you know, the way you touch a piano. He doesn't have the touch that would make the sound of whatever he thinks of come off.

I can tell he's influenced by Duke, but to put the loud pedal on the piano and make a run is very old-fashioned to me. And when the alto player sits up there and plays without no tone. . . . That's the reason I don't buy any records!

I have to agree with Miles here!

For those of you who never heard Cecil Taylor, here's a delightful little gem from youtube. http://youtube.com/watch?v=r21206DbBaE

 

[rickster]

Seriously, who CARES what Miles thought of Al Hirt ? We all know that Al was a great trumpet player and a great guy -- Does it really matter what this guy thought ?? As if whatever Miles said was the absolute gospel, and that we should hang on every word. Lets take Miles for what he was. A jazz innovator, fair trumpet player, and rude SOB.

 

[Mr Bill]

For those of you who never heard Cecil Taylor, here's a delightful little gem from youtube.

Wow! Is it just me or did the first two and a half minutes of that video seem like a band warming up and tuning up. Also, I didn't know Cecil Taylor was blind -- it was very cruel to put a piano in front of a blind Bongo/Conga player...

--Mr Bill
knowing the beating he'll get from some of the free-jazz purists in the Corner.

 

[rickster]

I'm sorry, that Cecil Taylor stuff is just crap, plain and simple. No wonder so many people are turned off when they hear the word "jazz".

 

[nightcat]

Mr Bill... Cecil Taylor isn't blind. It isn't his vision that's impared. He may have a hearing problem which would explain why his music sounds the way it does! That clip may be in my opinion some of the worst music I've ever heard. Also, most of pieces go on for 15 or 20 minutes. Interesting to note, Taylor years ago was a music teacher at the University Of Wisconsin.

As I said before, occasionally Miles Davis is correct in his critiques.

 

[Mike]

Like I said, a hilariously to seriously strange thread.

Mike

P.S. Hey Bill, where are you?

 

[Captain Bacardi]

This is why the called Cecil Taylor's stuff "free jazz" - nobody would pay for it.



Capt. Bacardi