What trumpet did Herb Alpert play?
- Thread starter dlivadas
- Start date
-
- Tags
- herb alpert
- Status
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
Herb has played many trumpets in his 40+ years in the music business. With his wealth and clout in the industry I would imagine that he probably owns or at least has played just about every brand that's worthy of professional use. During the Tijuana Brass era, Herb most visibly played 2 Chicago Benges. If you know what to look for, You can easily tell this. The horn he is pictured with on "South Of The Border" is not the same horn he is pictured with on "The Beat Of The Brass", although they are both Chicago Benges. The rear jacket of "Herb Alpert's Ninth" shows some stills of a clip that was used on the BOTB tv special. There he is playing a Burbank Benge. Both Herb and Tonni Kalash endorsed Benge at that time and probably were supplied with instruments as needed. In the 1974 tv special, Herb and Bob Findlay are playing Bach Stradivarius trumpets. In the eighties Herb was pictured with a King Silver Flair and later played a Marcinckiewicz trumpet. Most recently he was playing a Kanstul trumpet on his last two CDs. I believe he still uses one of his Chicago Benges periodically as well. Neil is right, Herb did say that he considers his trumpet to be a piece of plumbing, however, I think his tonality was best on his Benge trumpets. Hope this helps.
David,
wishing Herb would make a new CD with ANY trumpet.............
David,
wishing Herb would make a new CD with ANY trumpet.............
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
While he may consider the horn a piece of plumbing, I am of the personal opinion that Herb favors the Chicago Benge trumpet. There does tend to be a special or unique sound that a Chicago Benge will produce - it is sort of a brightness that isn't heard with many other kinds of horns.
While it may be uncertain what horn was played on some of the recordings, it appears to me that Herb is holding a Benge on the Fandango, Blow Your Own Horn, and Beyond album covers. I also think it is a Benge that Herb is pictured with on the back of the Coney Island cover. Visible features of a Benge trumpet are the forward pointing second valve slide, as well as a small flat bracing between the tubing near the end of the third valve slide, and the design of the bracing connecting the bell section of the horn with the leadpipe/first valve slide area and rear bell area, and the bracing between the top and bottom of the first valve slide. The tops of the valve casings and the valve buttons themselves are unique on a Benge horn as well. These various Benge identifying features can also be seen on the trumpets that Herb is pictured with on various Tijuana Brass albums from the sixties - South of the Border, Herb's Ninth, Beat of the Brass...It is interesting to hear that the trumpets on the South of the Border and Beat of the Brass albums aren't the same horn...although I can believe that it is probably true on closer examination of the pictures...looks like a small dent in the bell on the horn shown on the South of the Border album??
The horn on the Magic Man cover looks very much like a King Silver Flair. This horn has the typical first valve slide trigger and the appearance of the valve cluster found on a Flair. Also, it has the Flair style moveable third valve slide ring that many horns do not have.
What do you know about Herb's mouthpiece? I have heard somewhere it was a Bach 7B? Different mouthpieces will have more impact on the sound of the horn than the horn itself...
Zig Kanstul - present owner of the Kanstul Instrument Company in Anaheim, California, worked for Benge back in the late sixties. The Kanstul company now owns the mandrells and other tooling used by Benge to produce the old Benges. The Benges made in recent years by United Musical Instruments are not the same as the Benges made years ago... If you want a Chicago Benge today, you will either have to find a used one - or get a Kanstul Chicago - a very nice reproduction of the original Chicago Benge. The Kanstul Chicago, I am told, is an exact reproduction of the original Chicago Benge, and will play and sound in a very similar manner. I can see why Herb may have chosen Kanstul in recent years - there is a Benge connection...
Back about the time of the Midnight Sun album - even earlier(mid to later 1980s), I believe Herb was using Marcinkiewicz equipment; yet he still has the Herb Alpert sound...There may be a reference to MMP products a couple albums(I can't recall which ones offhand) - this is a reference for Marcinkiewicz products...
While the trumpet can affect the sound a player produces, it is the player more than the horn that produces a given sound. If you gave Herb several different horns, he would sound just about the same on all of them. There can be some tonal differences between horns, but for the most part, the player influences the sound more than does the horn...
I always enjoy these discussions about equipment...being somewhat of a gearhead myself...
While it may be uncertain what horn was played on some of the recordings, it appears to me that Herb is holding a Benge on the Fandango, Blow Your Own Horn, and Beyond album covers. I also think it is a Benge that Herb is pictured with on the back of the Coney Island cover. Visible features of a Benge trumpet are the forward pointing second valve slide, as well as a small flat bracing between the tubing near the end of the third valve slide, and the design of the bracing connecting the bell section of the horn with the leadpipe/first valve slide area and rear bell area, and the bracing between the top and bottom of the first valve slide. The tops of the valve casings and the valve buttons themselves are unique on a Benge horn as well. These various Benge identifying features can also be seen on the trumpets that Herb is pictured with on various Tijuana Brass albums from the sixties - South of the Border, Herb's Ninth, Beat of the Brass...It is interesting to hear that the trumpets on the South of the Border and Beat of the Brass albums aren't the same horn...although I can believe that it is probably true on closer examination of the pictures...looks like a small dent in the bell on the horn shown on the South of the Border album??
The horn on the Magic Man cover looks very much like a King Silver Flair. This horn has the typical first valve slide trigger and the appearance of the valve cluster found on a Flair. Also, it has the Flair style moveable third valve slide ring that many horns do not have.
What do you know about Herb's mouthpiece? I have heard somewhere it was a Bach 7B? Different mouthpieces will have more impact on the sound of the horn than the horn itself...
Zig Kanstul - present owner of the Kanstul Instrument Company in Anaheim, California, worked for Benge back in the late sixties. The Kanstul company now owns the mandrells and other tooling used by Benge to produce the old Benges. The Benges made in recent years by United Musical Instruments are not the same as the Benges made years ago... If you want a Chicago Benge today, you will either have to find a used one - or get a Kanstul Chicago - a very nice reproduction of the original Chicago Benge. The Kanstul Chicago, I am told, is an exact reproduction of the original Chicago Benge, and will play and sound in a very similar manner. I can see why Herb may have chosen Kanstul in recent years - there is a Benge connection...
Back about the time of the Midnight Sun album - even earlier(mid to later 1980s), I believe Herb was using Marcinkiewicz equipment; yet he still has the Herb Alpert sound...There may be a reference to MMP products a couple albums(I can't recall which ones offhand) - this is a reference for Marcinkiewicz products...
While the trumpet can affect the sound a player produces, it is the player more than the horn that produces a given sound. If you gave Herb several different horns, he would sound just about the same on all of them. There can be some tonal differences between horns, but for the most part, the player influences the sound more than does the horn...
I always enjoy these discussions about equipment...being somewhat of a gearhead myself...
Captain Bacardi
Well-Known Member
dlivadas said:
According to his interview in Windplayer magazine from last year, he always used the Chicago Benge for his recordings, but played others for tour dates. Of course, the lioner notes from Keep Your Eye On Me suggests otherwise.
Capt. Bacardi
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
Herb's sound was brighter and more "brassy" sounding on his "silver" albums (Wild Romance-My Abstact Heart). He went back to his Chicago Benge for North on South Street-Second Wind and switched t the Kanstul on Passion and Colors. Though his silver period sound is still undeniably Herb, his tonality is more metallic. As for Herb's Windplayer interview, He also was in a 1985 issue where he says "I play MMP products exclusively". I think he had an endorsement deal with MMp and when it was over, he went back to his Benge. The reason I think he sounds best on his Benge is because of the way the Benge trumpets before 1973 were made. The bells were hand-hammered until they had a live "ringing" sound to them. This method of production gave these horns a responsiveness and warmth that allows every inflection, nuance and emotional expression to come through like no other horn I've ever played. Herb's sound has a language all it's own and the Benge does an incredible job of articulating Herb's emotions. Probably why he keeps coming back to it.
David,
a Benge believer..........
David,
a Benge believer..........
Trumpets are much like saxophones. Different manufacturing techniques, materials, keys (or valves), even the type of lacquer goes into the horn's characteristic sound. A lot of sax players like a Selmer Mk VI...but they will even go to the point of liking the earlier Mk VI's (since they had a very long production run) due to a superior tone they find. VII's (which I own) tend to sound different and not many players like them. I almost lucked out and had a trade for a Super Action 80 Bari for my VII Tenor, but never heard back.
It's all preference. Someone who plays a Selmer VI will often try other horns and sometimes switch permanently, or just do it to try a different sound, but there is always something special about that first pro horn and the sound you learned to get out of it that is hard to leave. Which is why you see Herb going back to his Benge.
It's all preference. Someone who plays a Selmer VI will often try other horns and sometimes switch permanently, or just do it to try a different sound, but there is always something special about that first pro horn and the sound you learned to get out of it that is hard to leave. Which is why you see Herb going back to his Benge.
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
Kanstul Chicago. This is the horn today that will accurately duplicate the Chicago Benge. It was designed exactly for that purpose, using an original Chicago Benge as the reference. The tooling, mandrells, etc. were taken over by Zig Kanstul when UMI bought Benge and moved the production east to Elkhart, Indiana about 1980.
It is available in lacquer and looks exactly like the Chicago Benge of Herb Alpert.
You can look at it at www.kanstul.net Look for the Chicago series - CHI 1000.
Kanstul is probably one of the most respected trumpet manufacturers in the world today. I am planning to buy a Chicago as soon as possible.
I agree with the comments above about silver. I do not like my sound on silver - it is too "harsh..." Though some may disagree, I think lacquer is a little "warmer" sound, which I prefer.
It is available in lacquer and looks exactly like the Chicago Benge of Herb Alpert.
You can look at it at www.kanstul.net Look for the Chicago series - CHI 1000.
Kanstul is probably one of the most respected trumpet manufacturers in the world today. I am planning to buy a Chicago as soon as possible.
I agree with the comments above about silver. I do not like my sound on silver - it is too "harsh..." Though some may disagree, I think lacquer is a little "warmer" sound, which I prefer.
DAN BOLTON
Well-Known Member
The Kanstul Chicago retails for $ 2070 in silver...how does that compare with a Bach Strad 37? I remember that when I had a Strad in high school[1971], it ran 450 bucks, or 550 in silver...wonder if I could have had Benge back then for about the same price? If I could have, and would have known that it was Herb's model of choice, well...my backside would still be sore today...
Dan, reminiscing.....
Dan, reminiscing.....
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
OK...the current RETAIL(manufacturer's suggested retail price - the price that no one ever pays because most horns are discounted by varying percentages depending on the brand)for a standard Bach Strad 37 in silver - from the current Woodwind/Brasswind Music Store catalog in South Bend, Indiana - is $2395. Lacquer is $2265. This is the standard Strad with the 37 bell and standard #25 leadpipe. I believe you can also get the 43 bell or the 72 bell for the same price. If you want a light weight horn or a horn with a reverse leadpipe, it will cost a little more.The Selmer Company(current owner of Bach) will not permit discount prices to be published in a catalog. But, if you call the WWBW, they will give you the actual selling price on the telephone.
Bach makes many different options of bore, bell, and leadpipe that might be useful for particular players in specific situations. However, the Strad 37 is by far the most common and the standard.
An issue with Bach trumpets in recent years has been in the areas of consistency in manufacture and quality control. Bach makes very good trumpets - the problem is that they are not all even or equal among different samples of the same model. You may play ten Strads side by side, and no two of them are even similar in playing characteristics. So, if you want a Strad, you are always encouraged to go somewhere there are many in stock and play test them until you find one that you think is best. The WWBW is probably a good place to do this, since it is a big store with an decent inventory.
If you want to find out more about Bach, check www.selmer.com or www.thebachloyalist.freeservers.com/
You can also check out the WWBW at www.wwbw.com
I prefer a lacquer horn and Kanstul Chicago is $1910 in lacquer.
Elden Benge played in the Chicago Symphony, if my memory is correct, and began making trumpets in Chicago, with the assistance of Renold Schilke, the original owner of the Schilke trumpet company. The Chicago Benge was one of Elden's first horns, and it is reported that the Benge trumpet played by Herb Alpert was a 1951 Chicago Benge. This trumpet would probably have been made in Chicago shortly before Benge relocated the production to California. If you go to the dallasmusic website I mention below, I believe there is a link to some interesting information about the history of Benge, and Herb Alpert is mentioned there.
If you get interested in a Kanstul, send me a private message and I will give you advice on a couple excellent independent dealers who will give you excellent prices and excellent service.
Another good site for trumpet info is www dallasmusic.org/gearhead/
This is a good general discussion on trumpets for anyone who might be considering a purchase...
Just as an extra bit of info, my father bought for me a King Silver Flair in 1965. I don't know exactly what he paid - I know he got a good discount, however, being a high school band director - but the retail on the Flair in 1965 was $425.
I started playing trumpet in 6th grade in 1962 - 1963 and began to play seriously in 1965 when I started private lessons. I have played pretty much continuously since then. I grew up in a musical home and have pretty much lived with it all my life...
DAN...the answer is... YES, you could probably have bought a new Benge for the price you mention - I have seen a 1969 catalog page on the Benge link at www.dallasmusic.org/gearhead/ and I believe you can link to the catalog page from there...
Bach makes many different options of bore, bell, and leadpipe that might be useful for particular players in specific situations. However, the Strad 37 is by far the most common and the standard.
An issue with Bach trumpets in recent years has been in the areas of consistency in manufacture and quality control. Bach makes very good trumpets - the problem is that they are not all even or equal among different samples of the same model. You may play ten Strads side by side, and no two of them are even similar in playing characteristics. So, if you want a Strad, you are always encouraged to go somewhere there are many in stock and play test them until you find one that you think is best. The WWBW is probably a good place to do this, since it is a big store with an decent inventory.
If you want to find out more about Bach, check www.selmer.com or www.thebachloyalist.freeservers.com/
You can also check out the WWBW at www.wwbw.com
I prefer a lacquer horn and Kanstul Chicago is $1910 in lacquer.
Elden Benge played in the Chicago Symphony, if my memory is correct, and began making trumpets in Chicago, with the assistance of Renold Schilke, the original owner of the Schilke trumpet company. The Chicago Benge was one of Elden's first horns, and it is reported that the Benge trumpet played by Herb Alpert was a 1951 Chicago Benge. This trumpet would probably have been made in Chicago shortly before Benge relocated the production to California. If you go to the dallasmusic website I mention below, I believe there is a link to some interesting information about the history of Benge, and Herb Alpert is mentioned there.
If you get interested in a Kanstul, send me a private message and I will give you advice on a couple excellent independent dealers who will give you excellent prices and excellent service.
Another good site for trumpet info is www dallasmusic.org/gearhead/
This is a good general discussion on trumpets for anyone who might be considering a purchase...
Just as an extra bit of info, my father bought for me a King Silver Flair in 1965. I don't know exactly what he paid - I know he got a good discount, however, being a high school band director - but the retail on the Flair in 1965 was $425.
I started playing trumpet in 6th grade in 1962 - 1963 and began to play seriously in 1965 when I started private lessons. I have played pretty much continuously since then. I grew up in a musical home and have pretty much lived with it all my life...
DAN...the answer is... YES, you could probably have bought a new Benge for the price you mention - I have seen a 1969 catalog page on the Benge link at www.dallasmusic.org/gearhead/ and I believe you can link to the catalog page from there...
DAN BOLTON
Well-Known Member
Looks like I'll be standing up for awhile...
Dan
Dan
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
I purchased my first Benge, a Los Angeles 5X model from Giardinelli's in NYC in 1979 and paid $550 for it in laquer. It was a good horn, but I later learned that the 3X plus, with a slightly bigger bore suited me better. I was lucky enough to find a used 1962 Burbank Benge used from Woodwind And The Brasswind and purchased it in 1993 for $500. I liked itso much that I had it overhauled and gold plated and am still playing it. As for Herb Alpert, though his first Benge from the TJB era was a Chicago from 1951, he did play several Benges during the TJB era. At least 3 Chicago models 1 laquer, 1 gold plated, and 1 silver plated (used in the "Brass Are Comin" tv special. At least 1 Burbank Benge( pictured on rear of "Herb Alpert's Ninth" and seen on BOTB tv special clip with them playing "Mame" at a State Fair. Herb and Tonni were clinicians for Benge at that time and were probably given several horns by Donald Benge. If you look closely at the album covers, you will see subtle differences in the details of the different horns he is pictured with.All Benges, but clearly different horns. Herb didn't play a Los Angeles model with the original TJB because the weren't made in LA until 1971. I have a Chicago and a Burbank Benge and I prefer the Burbank model. But that may just be because the Chicago is only a ML bore and not a MLP. I also owned a model 37 Bach Stradivarius in the 1970s. It is a great horn for symphony playing, but for what I like to do, Benge suits me much better.
David,
enjoying all this trumpet talk......
David,
enjoying all this trumpet talk......
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
Here's a couple questions:
1. Got any idea on the mouthpiece Herb played? Someone told me once it was like a Bach 7B. For me, I don't like a mouthpiece smaller than a 3C. I played a 1 1/4C for a long time; then started on a 3C a few years ago. I like the focused tone of a 3C, but the comfort and control of a 1 1/4C.
2. What do you think of Tonni Kalash as a trumpet player? It has been reported that Herb played all the trumpet partson the recordings. So, Tonni was mostly used for live performances. I saw the TJB live a few times -it's been a long time ago, my memory tells me that Tonni was a pretty strong player. But I have never really heard enough from him to tell how good he really was...
I've been looking for a new trumpet for a while, but haven't finalized the search. I'm pretty sure it will be the Kanstul Chicago, but the Conn Vintage One is reported to be excellent also. I had both a Bach Strad and LA Benge 3X. The Benge had a serial number that dated it near the UMI take over and the end of California production,even though the bell was marked Los Angeles. From what I can find out, this horn may have not been up to the standards of earlier Benges - plus it was in need of overhaul, including valve alignment. Both of these horns were stolen - so I am looking into a new one...
I'd be definitely going with a .460 ML bore size.
There's a lot of people that will claim that Bach will do it all...especially if fitted with the appropriate bell/weight configuration...I dunno - I'd have to play test a buch of them to feel that I had the best chance of finding the best one - and I live in Northeast Ohio - about 275 - 300 miles from the WWBW...
From all the research I have done, it appears that Kanstul is a "winner" in the trumpet market nowadays - and in the price range I can justify...The Vintage One is just a little more money, but it has some optional features that I don't really want to pay for; specifically the extra rounded tuning slide and modular valve bottom system...extra stuff that increases the price and may not be needed for my needs...
I wonder about the Getzen Custom horns... Rick Braun plays one of those...
1. Got any idea on the mouthpiece Herb played? Someone told me once it was like a Bach 7B. For me, I don't like a mouthpiece smaller than a 3C. I played a 1 1/4C for a long time; then started on a 3C a few years ago. I like the focused tone of a 3C, but the comfort and control of a 1 1/4C.
2. What do you think of Tonni Kalash as a trumpet player? It has been reported that Herb played all the trumpet partson the recordings. So, Tonni was mostly used for live performances. I saw the TJB live a few times -it's been a long time ago, my memory tells me that Tonni was a pretty strong player. But I have never really heard enough from him to tell how good he really was...
I've been looking for a new trumpet for a while, but haven't finalized the search. I'm pretty sure it will be the Kanstul Chicago, but the Conn Vintage One is reported to be excellent also. I had both a Bach Strad and LA Benge 3X. The Benge had a serial number that dated it near the UMI take over and the end of California production,even though the bell was marked Los Angeles. From what I can find out, this horn may have not been up to the standards of earlier Benges - plus it was in need of overhaul, including valve alignment. Both of these horns were stolen - so I am looking into a new one...
I'd be definitely going with a .460 ML bore size.
There's a lot of people that will claim that Bach will do it all...especially if fitted with the appropriate bell/weight configuration...I dunno - I'd have to play test a buch of them to feel that I had the best chance of finding the best one - and I live in Northeast Ohio - about 275 - 300 miles from the WWBW...
From all the research I have done, it appears that Kanstul is a "winner" in the trumpet market nowadays - and in the price range I can justify...The Vintage One is just a little more money, but it has some optional features that I don't really want to pay for; specifically the extra rounded tuning slide and modular valve bottom system...extra stuff that increases the price and may not be needed for my needs...
I wonder about the Getzen Custom horns... Rick Braun plays one of those...
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
My suggestion: if you want a horn that gives you "Herb-like" playing characteristics, you have 2 options.
1) Purchase a Kanstul Chicago trumpet from Zig Kanstul. I'd bet the farm that you'll like it better than any other new horn you could purchase. Forget the Conn, the Getzen and especially forget Rick Braun.
2) Purchase a used Benge 3x of Burbank or early LA vintage (no later than 22xxx serial no.) in good shape and have it overhauled and replated in gold or silver. Burbank Benges are just as good as Chicago Benges and are usually less worn and less money. Herb played Burbank Benges as well as Tonni on some of the live gigs. Ebay has these come up periodically and they usually sell for $600- $1000 bucks. If they're in good shape the overhauling and replating will cost you $200-$800 depending on finish and the end product will be a phenominal hand made horn in like new condition that will be worth more as it gets older. Sometimes you'll find one where the finish is completely intact. I bought my Burbank Benge for $500, intending it to be a second knock around horn. At the time, I had a Burbank Trumpet (Zig Kanstul) that i'd purchased new as my main horn. My trumpet teacher at the time, who also played a Burbank Benge. said hat if I played the Benge for a while, I would prefer it over the Burbank Trumpet. Well I finlly sent the Burbank back to Zig for some minor repairs at one point and by the time it came back, I had decided that the used Burbank Benge was now my main axe and I had it overhauled and gold plated and have been playing it ever since. I put a total of about $1200 into the horn and the repair work and I wouldn't trade it for any currently available horn. So this may be your best way to go.
As for the cup of Herb's old mouthpiece, the Bach he used, I believe was a D cup. The tonality certainly would suggest that to me. he also played a Shilke mouthpiece for a while, probably a 10A4A.
David,
who now must practice..........
1) Purchase a Kanstul Chicago trumpet from Zig Kanstul. I'd bet the farm that you'll like it better than any other new horn you could purchase. Forget the Conn, the Getzen and especially forget Rick Braun.
2) Purchase a used Benge 3x of Burbank or early LA vintage (no later than 22xxx serial no.) in good shape and have it overhauled and replated in gold or silver. Burbank Benges are just as good as Chicago Benges and are usually less worn and less money. Herb played Burbank Benges as well as Tonni on some of the live gigs. Ebay has these come up periodically and they usually sell for $600- $1000 bucks. If they're in good shape the overhauling and replating will cost you $200-$800 depending on finish and the end product will be a phenominal hand made horn in like new condition that will be worth more as it gets older. Sometimes you'll find one where the finish is completely intact. I bought my Burbank Benge for $500, intending it to be a second knock around horn. At the time, I had a Burbank Trumpet (Zig Kanstul) that i'd purchased new as my main horn. My trumpet teacher at the time, who also played a Burbank Benge. said hat if I played the Benge for a while, I would prefer it over the Burbank Trumpet. Well I finlly sent the Burbank back to Zig for some minor repairs at one point and by the time it came back, I had decided that the used Burbank Benge was now my main axe and I had it overhauled and gold plated and have been playing it ever since. I put a total of about $1200 into the horn and the repair work and I wouldn't trade it for any currently available horn. So this may be your best way to go.
As for the cup of Herb's old mouthpiece, the Bach he used, I believe was a D cup. The tonality certainly would suggest that to me. he also played a Shilke mouthpiece for a while, probably a 10A4A.
David,
who now must practice..........
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the suggestions - after some considerable research, I agree the Kanstul Chicago is probably the best buy in terms of a new horn.
I'll also do some checking on the Burbank Benge idea, as that may be a possible alternative. It will be interesting to see if I can find one of those that could be a reasonable combination of money/condition/value...
I also have heard that Herb was playing a D cup mouthpiece.
Pictures that I have seen, including album cover photos on the NINTH and BEAT OF THE BRASS albums, where Herb has a trumpet do look like a Schilke mouthpiece is being used. I also have a newspaper close up photo of Herb from 1968 where it looks like the mouthpiece is a Schilke. Earlier photos where Herb has a horn - especially the SOUTH OF THE BORDER cover - appear to be of a Bach mouthpiece - or something with that outside appearance.
So, maybe he was experimenting with mouthpieces sometime back in the sixties...
I'll also do some checking on the Burbank Benge idea, as that may be a possible alternative. It will be interesting to see if I can find one of those that could be a reasonable combination of money/condition/value...
I also have heard that Herb was playing a D cup mouthpiece.
Pictures that I have seen, including album cover photos on the NINTH and BEAT OF THE BRASS albums, where Herb has a trumpet do look like a Schilke mouthpiece is being used. I also have a newspaper close up photo of Herb from 1968 where it looks like the mouthpiece is a Schilke. Earlier photos where Herb has a horn - especially the SOUTH OF THE BORDER cover - appear to be of a Bach mouthpiece - or something with that outside appearance.
So, maybe he was experimenting with mouthpieces sometime back in the sixties...
stefandaystrom
New Member
Knowing pretty much nothing at all about trumpet playing, I've always wondered (and so far haven't figured it out from this thread): What is it that made Herb's trumpet in the TJB (and often -- but not always -- afterwards) sound like it's halfway between a "conventional" trumpet (as you hear in symphony orchestras, as you hear most traditional jazz trumpeters play, etc) and a flugelhorn? You listen to a typical trumpet in most musical contexts not at all related to the TJB, and it's main characteristic seems to be "bite". Herb's trumpet sound has a lot of the mellowness ("bite" removed), even on uptempo passages, that only some OTHER elements on the brass family have in most other contexts. (But not at all like the "mute" sound conventional trumpets seem to rely on for taking the "bite" off.) Is this the sound of the Benge (and is it thus rarely used in symphonies, traditional jazz, etc), is the sound of another piece of the technology (say, the mouthpiece), or is it all in the style of playing?
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
IMO, it is about the style and concept of tone, and the way the player is playing the horn and the style and sound he is creating - the horn is merely the tool he is using to express his ideas and feelings...
Herb Alpert has a unique tone and an original sound and style - so he will not and does not sound like any other trumpet player in the world. If you listen to Herb's playing, it doesn't all sound exactly the same. If you listen to the TJB recordings from the Lonely Bull on, you will hear some different "inflections" and tonal nuances on different songs. Herb uses the horn like a vocalist uses the voice - sometimes open and free blowing, sometimes more veiled and "smoky" sounding, etc. He articulates a certain "mood" more than just articulating the notes...Many excellent technical players focus more on the delivery of the notes - I think Herb focuses on the delivery of a feeling, or a style or mood. He delivers the notes well, but he also delivers something else - a style and sound that cannot be duplicated by others.
Herb's playing reminds me of the vocal blend and harmony of the Beach Boys or of Lennon and McCartney. There is a unique and very ORIGINAL sound and style these performers were able to create which can be heard regardless of the song itself, and which makes them sound different than anyone else. IMO, Herb Alpert is in this class of performers - unique and original - so he will not sound like anyone else.
The Benge trumpet can produce plenty of "bite." It is used quite frequently by lead trumpet players, where "bite" and brilliance are required. It probably can produce more inherent "bite" than the Bach Strad due to its bell flare design and its relatively light weight, compared to the Strad.
It can be used effectively in a more classical setting also. Elden Benge played in the Chicago Symphony and the Chicago Benge, as well as the Bach Strad, are horns that were "born" so to speak, from the old Besson trumpet, which was a common symphony instrument.
The Benge trumpet has a bright and melodic sound - almost a "singing" tone quality. It is very flexible and responsive - meaning that the player can easily produce a variety of tonal colors and easily play "around the center" of the pitch.
Benge is often a good choice for jazz players, and Herb Alpert seems to have had some jazz influences.
I think the Benge trumpet is extremely versatile, and I would imagine that Herb has found it to be the horn that best allows him to express the sound and style that he has in his head...The goal of selecting a horn is to match the player to the horn. The best horn for a particular player is the one that creates the least amount of difficulty for the player to express his musical ideas or feelings, and which offers the least resistance or obstacle to performing - it is a matter of getting the best match up.
I have always felt that Herb Alpert was more of a trumpet "stylist" than a trumpet "technician." Herb's playing is all about sound and style, rather than high notes and fast fingering(Zorba the Greek excluded...). Trumpet technicians are people like Doc Severinsen, Arturo Sandoval, Wynton Marsalis, Maynard Ferguson, and many others...
There is no question that Herb doesn't sound like anyone else. This contributes to his immediately recognizable sound.
I think Herb would sound about the same regardless of the brand of horn he was playing - this is true for most players - evidently the Benge suits him the best. Tone starts in the players' head. It is a mental concept. It is learned by imitation, listening, and developing certain playing skills.
To answer your original question - it is much more the player than the choice of horn that influences the sound you hear...
Herb Alpert has a unique tone and an original sound and style - so he will not and does not sound like any other trumpet player in the world. If you listen to Herb's playing, it doesn't all sound exactly the same. If you listen to the TJB recordings from the Lonely Bull on, you will hear some different "inflections" and tonal nuances on different songs. Herb uses the horn like a vocalist uses the voice - sometimes open and free blowing, sometimes more veiled and "smoky" sounding, etc. He articulates a certain "mood" more than just articulating the notes...Many excellent technical players focus more on the delivery of the notes - I think Herb focuses on the delivery of a feeling, or a style or mood. He delivers the notes well, but he also delivers something else - a style and sound that cannot be duplicated by others.
Herb's playing reminds me of the vocal blend and harmony of the Beach Boys or of Lennon and McCartney. There is a unique and very ORIGINAL sound and style these performers were able to create which can be heard regardless of the song itself, and which makes them sound different than anyone else. IMO, Herb Alpert is in this class of performers - unique and original - so he will not sound like anyone else.
The Benge trumpet can produce plenty of "bite." It is used quite frequently by lead trumpet players, where "bite" and brilliance are required. It probably can produce more inherent "bite" than the Bach Strad due to its bell flare design and its relatively light weight, compared to the Strad.
It can be used effectively in a more classical setting also. Elden Benge played in the Chicago Symphony and the Chicago Benge, as well as the Bach Strad, are horns that were "born" so to speak, from the old Besson trumpet, which was a common symphony instrument.
The Benge trumpet has a bright and melodic sound - almost a "singing" tone quality. It is very flexible and responsive - meaning that the player can easily produce a variety of tonal colors and easily play "around the center" of the pitch.
Benge is often a good choice for jazz players, and Herb Alpert seems to have had some jazz influences.
I think the Benge trumpet is extremely versatile, and I would imagine that Herb has found it to be the horn that best allows him to express the sound and style that he has in his head...The goal of selecting a horn is to match the player to the horn. The best horn for a particular player is the one that creates the least amount of difficulty for the player to express his musical ideas or feelings, and which offers the least resistance or obstacle to performing - it is a matter of getting the best match up.
I have always felt that Herb Alpert was more of a trumpet "stylist" than a trumpet "technician." Herb's playing is all about sound and style, rather than high notes and fast fingering(Zorba the Greek excluded...). Trumpet technicians are people like Doc Severinsen, Arturo Sandoval, Wynton Marsalis, Maynard Ferguson, and many others...
There is no question that Herb doesn't sound like anyone else. This contributes to his immediately recognizable sound.
I think Herb would sound about the same regardless of the brand of horn he was playing - this is true for most players - evidently the Benge suits him the best. Tone starts in the players' head. It is a mental concept. It is learned by imitation, listening, and developing certain playing skills.
To answer your original question - it is much more the player than the choice of horn that influences the sound you hear...
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
It's like I've been saying all along, the original Benge trumpets are so responsive and lyrical in tonal quality, that you can facilitate the most delicate inflections and tonal coloring with great ease to where the horn sounds like it's singing and at times producing musical syllables. The Benge's tone can be bright and festive one minute, and then melancholy the next. Herb recognized this and knew that this would give him a signature sound that had so many components to it, that it couldn't be duplicated. I especially like how Herb emotes through the horn on "She Touched Me" and "A Beautiful Friend".
Captain Dave, there is an LA benge for auction on eBay that you should take a look at. Item #2535801152. I think that if you don't have to go over $800 for it, you can make it like new at less than a new horn would cost and you'd have a really fine instrument. his one is early '70s vintage.
David,
now going back to playing his Benge...........
Captain Dave, there is an LA benge for auction on eBay that you should take a look at. Item #2535801152. I think that if you don't have to go over $800 for it, you can make it like new at less than a new horn would cost and you'd have a really fine instrument. his one is early '70s vintage.
David,
now going back to playing his Benge...........
Hey there folks, I have a Burbank Benge 3X+ (68XX) in very good condition that is a little big for me, I was wondering if there was anyone out there that would be willing to trade a 3X for it in similar condition. With all this discussion about Benges, I thought this might be a good place to ask. Thanks for your time.
[email protected]
[email protected]
New here so I thought I'd better introduce myself!
It's great to run into this site; I was a big Alpert fan for many years in my youth; always trying to figure out what kind of horn he played with that "strange" second valve slide! -- All I knew was I wanted one!
I used to own a Bach STrad 37 ('69) in laquer which I played MANY of Alperts songs on. Recently though I sold my Strad and purchased a Benge Burbank 3x+ (Ser# 8288 -- 1970). It's in silver, but makes my old Bach seem really bad in comparison (Sorry mom and dad, I appreciated the horn but it's not meant for lead work!)
I read one post here that asked about the mouthpiece he used (uses?). Well, If I remember right, Marcinkewicz's site lists his as equivelant to a 7B (Bach?).
I'm wondering a few things myself...for example, what bore was his burbank/chicago etc? 3x bell? MLP?
Another question. I checked the back of my Herp alpert's Ninth album cover. SOmeone mentioned that it is a burbank? How can you tell?
My Benge is silver and is in fairly good shape. I got it on ebay for 500 and it's a great player. I DO think it was professionally owned....patch on the lead pipe, the valves have been replated...the third valve slide stop has been removed, and silver painted on where the posts were. I'd LOVE to have this put back in AS NEW condition but I've heard that you really take chances on replating/laquering because of the buffing they do....it can change the sound. Don't want that... Perhaps send it to Kanstul???
BTW, I recently purchased a Kanstul CCF925 flugel from pickmusic (http://www.pickmusic.net). IT's a GREAT horn! Love it! They are strictly Kanstul and have great pricing. Maybe $!500 for the CHI1000!
Thanks,
Tim
It's great to run into this site; I was a big Alpert fan for many years in my youth; always trying to figure out what kind of horn he played with that "strange" second valve slide! -- All I knew was I wanted one!
I used to own a Bach STrad 37 ('69) in laquer which I played MANY of Alperts songs on. Recently though I sold my Strad and purchased a Benge Burbank 3x+ (Ser# 8288 -- 1970). It's in silver, but makes my old Bach seem really bad in comparison (Sorry mom and dad, I appreciated the horn but it's not meant for lead work!)
I read one post here that asked about the mouthpiece he used (uses?). Well, If I remember right, Marcinkewicz's site lists his as equivelant to a 7B (Bach?).
I'm wondering a few things myself...for example, what bore was his burbank/chicago etc? 3x bell? MLP?
Another question. I checked the back of my Herp alpert's Ninth album cover. SOmeone mentioned that it is a burbank? How can you tell?
My Benge is silver and is in fairly good shape. I got it on ebay for 500 and it's a great player. I DO think it was professionally owned....patch on the lead pipe, the valves have been replated...the third valve slide stop has been removed, and silver painted on where the posts were. I'd LOVE to have this put back in AS NEW condition but I've heard that you really take chances on replating/laquering because of the buffing they do....it can change the sound. Don't want that... Perhaps send it to Kanstul???
BTW, I recently purchased a Kanstul CCF925 flugel from pickmusic (http://www.pickmusic.net). IT's a GREAT horn! Love it! They are strictly Kanstul and have great pricing. Maybe $!500 for the CHI1000!
Thanks,
Tim
thetijuanataxi
Well-Known Member
I knew Herb's horn on the back cover of "Ninth" was a Burbank Benge because the thumb saddle on the 1st valve slide of a Chicago Benge has a bar which extends to the end of the slide where it solders to the slide. This is missing on the horn he is playing in that picture which, incidently, was taken from a clip featured on THE BEAT OF THE BRASS tv special.
David
David
I'm not sure how to respond to that other than to say that I've noticed variations on the Chicago design. Some of the earliest ones don't have a thumb saddle at all! Further, some of the CHicago horns also had two nubs on the end of the first valve slide just like the ones on the second slide. So far I've not seen a real pattern. Other variations: on a few I've noticed was an adjustable slide ring on the third valve slide. I've noticed these on some of the earliest ones. CHicago horn #560 doesn't have the music staff on the bell which we normally associate with the Chicago horns.
In the end, it's not all that important. Just to say that I've noticed variations in appearance over time. The Burbank is a great horn in any case!
Thanks,
Tim
In the end, it's not all that important. Just to say that I've noticed variations in appearance over time. The Burbank is a great horn in any case!
Thanks,
Tim
Captaindave
Well-Known Member
Just a couple things here I might mention:
I've never had any experience with instrument restoration - but I have also heard and read that it probably is at least a risk to refinish a vintage horn because this might cause some kind of playing/sound change.
I think the idea to contact Kanstul directly and discuss it with them is a good idea.
I think you might be able to buy the Kanstul Chicago in lacquer -CHI1000 - for less than $1500. I'm going to take a guess here and say maybe $1250 or so...
Pick Music would be a good idea. Also Tulsa Band or Springfield Music...
www.tulsaband.com
www.springfield-music.com
Your contact person for Springfield Music is Donovan Bankhead.
Also, if you go over to www.trumpetherald.com you will find an active thread going on there about relacquering a vintage trumpet...
I've never had any experience with instrument restoration - but I have also heard and read that it probably is at least a risk to refinish a vintage horn because this might cause some kind of playing/sound change.
I think the idea to contact Kanstul directly and discuss it with them is a good idea.
I think you might be able to buy the Kanstul Chicago in lacquer -CHI1000 - for less than $1500. I'm going to take a guess here and say maybe $1250 or so...
Pick Music would be a good idea. Also Tulsa Band or Springfield Music...
www.tulsaband.com
www.springfield-music.com
Your contact person for Springfield Music is Donovan Bankhead.
Also, if you go over to www.trumpetherald.com you will find an active thread going on there about relacquering a vintage trumpet...
- Status
Similar discussions
