Why did original TJB disband?

[mike white]

Hi everyone, It's been a long time as I have kept up by reading the posts
rather than responding to them. That's good news that maybe some of the
unreleased TJB will finally see the light of day. My question is one that has bothered me for years. Why did the original Brass breakup? I know all about Herb's wanting to drop out and run his company. That he was going through a divorce and his trumpet had turned into his 'enemy'. I saw the revised TJB in 1974 and I was disapointed that the original guys were not there. Was the parting of the ways in 1969 amicable? Did Tonni Kalash,Lou Pagani and Pat Senatore have differences with Herb and that is why they never played with him again? When I met Herb during the 'Second Wind' tour, he was friendly,but did not even know where these three fellows were. I see that Pat plays at his restaurant now,but Kalash and Pagani just dropped out of site and have since passed away. Could this be the reason why Herb doesn't look back?

 

[Steven J. Gross]

Why did the original Brass breakup?

Lani Ono

 

[DAN BOLTON]

Why did the original Brass breakup?

Lani Ono

Fuhhnneee...but not true. The original Brass seemed to have run its' course...and I don't think that Herb was the only member that needed a rest. Bands come and go; peoples' lives change, and it's time to do something else. The public was getting tired of the TJB, record sales were dropping off and the music scene was changing.

As for the fate of messers. Pagani and Kalash, nobody seems to know what really happenned to them after their TJB years...one can only surmise that they wanted it that way.

My personal feeling is that a little too much has been made of the TJB years being a difficult time for Herb that he would rather forget. The main difficulty that those years have thrust upon him is a "how do I top this" situation. It's easy to be stereotyped, and hard to overcome or avoid--I mean, we're ALL anxious for those reissues or box sets, and not too many fans know that Herb is an excellent painter and sculptor.

And, running A&M demanded a lot more of Herb's time as the years went on, because the company really took off in a short time.

So, there were a lot of reasons for the TJB's breakup: I doubt that "bad blood" was a factor. We'll probably never know just how things were among the Brass members on the road, and that's probably how it should be...but it couldn't have been all that bad, because the TJB sidemen were the highest paid and most respected of their era.

Herb Alpert is also one of the most benevolent artists that ever existed...someone as generous as he is wouldn't have tolerated any feuds among his band members.

Things had just run their course...all good things have to come to an end, even the TJB.

Dan, putting his two cents in, online...

 

[Mr Bill]

Lani Ono

Hehehehehee! Good one, my friend! You made an overtired Navy guy laugh at the end of a sh!tty day!

Mr Bill

 

[Captaindave]

I think the above post by Dan Bolton pretty much says it all...

Herb has stated publicly that he was burned out. After seven years of recording and touring, I can understand that it would be time to take a break. During those seven years, twelve(?) albums were recorded. Lots of personal appearances and concerts, etc. Realizing that the popularity of the sound and style was waning, it would be wise to go out "on top" so to speak...

I also do not place a great deal of emphasis on Herb being a person beset with personal problems in such a way as to cause the end of the TJB. Rather, I agree with the idea that the group and sound had "run its course," so to speak. All good things come to an end, and it was time for the end to come. I can remember - TJB popularity had significantly declined by mid to late 1969.

I lived through and grew up during the sixties, graduating from high school in 1969. I remember the period as a time of great change and variety. From the inception of the TJB sound with the Lonely Bull in 1962 to the release of WARM in 1969, great changes occurred in popular music. Although the Lonely Bull was released in 1962, popular music still very much had the influence of the fifties. IMO, the "fifties" didn't really end until the Beatles put an end to it in 1964. I point this out because the TJB survived and flourished through that entire period all the way through the end of the decade. Tastes and styles and sounds in music changed dramatically between 1962 and 1970. Given the fickle nature of public taste in popular music, it is significant that the TJB lasted all that time and endured the musical evolution of the sixties - pretty much from the beginning to the end of the decade. IMO, the WARM album shows that the TJB had run its course. It is so different form all the previous TJB albums. It is a good album in its own right, but, to me, it shows that Herb Alpert had taken the TJB sound and style as far as it was going to go. WARM sounds to me like Herb was trying to figure out what to do with the TJB and where to take the sound in 1969.

Maybe Herb is like many others in the entertainment industry who do not want to become "stereotyped" into a particular role - as in the case of actors/actresses. Sometimes an actor will find it difficult to secure other acting roles if a stereotyped character is associated with that actor. I think that Herb may simply have recognized that the popularity of the TJB was over, and that he needed to move on ahead as a musician into other areas. He may very well want to see himself as Herb the musician - not just Herb the leader of the TJB. Perhaps he feels that his career is more than just that one period of time, however significant.

From what I have read, the members of the TJB touring group were established professional musicians before their involvement with the TJB. Each was "hired" by Herb to play that "gig," so to speak. When that gig ended, after several years, they also moved on in their careers. While I don't think that anyone other than those directly involved would know for sure, I doubt that any personal acrimony was involved in the breakup of the group.

I am sure that Herb Alpert recognizes the importance of the TJB on his career as both a musician and businessman. It is what has brought him to where he is today.

All this is nothing more than my personal opinions, of course...

 

[Clark]

I think several factors came together to spell the end of the TJB.

First of all, in music in general, 1967 marked a watershed year with the Beatles Sgt Pepper album. Popular music for the teenagers (I was 17 at the time) became more focused on groups and a different sound and they became less interested in middle of the road music like the TJB and BMB. Think about some of the big hit makers of '65-67 like Frank and Nancy Sinatra, many of the orginal British Invasion, the Beach Boys, Gary Lewis, the Mama and Papas - they were all gone by the end of 1967, and were replaced by Creame, The Doors, Buffalo Springfield, Jefferson Airplane and the others.
Second, Herb had some issues - the breakup of his marriage, perhaps some issues with his ability to play, and less public acceptance of the direction he was moving his music. On top of that, he had a thriving record company that needed his attention. He said to heck with it and went into hibernation from performing for five years.

One other factor, and this is just a theory on my part. The early TJB hits were studio created when Herb discovered a way to creat a unique Spanish sound by creating the two part horn harmony. It was the major feature of the sound of the TJB. Later, I think Herb viewed that as a gimmick, and I think he wanted to get away from that. That is why he took the Brass in the direction he did, and it is why he is today reluctant to revisit that part of his past career. I think he wants to be recognized as a musician on his own, without any gimmicks.

IMHO, I am sorry if he feels that way, because he created a heck of a sound and some great arrangements. I would like to see him recreate the sound of the Brass on some of the music that has come around since the Brass left the scene in 1969.

 

[mike white]

Hi again, Thanks for replying to my post. I agree with what everyone had to say. I was just surprised that when Herb reunited the Brass in 1974 and
1985, he chose different musicians. Maybe he wanted a broader sound. Bob Findley is an excellent horn player and Dave Frishberg was more jazzier on the piano than Lou Pagani. It just would have been nice to see the original members that we all knew together again. It is funny that neither Kalash or Pagani ever played again to my knowledge after the TJB years. Perhaps you are right that they made their money and ran. 'Lani Ono', that is funny....

 

[thetijuanataxi]

I too have wondered what magic Herb could have done with some of the post TJB era songs. I think Lionel Richie's "Sail On", "Hello", and "Stuck On You" would all have made excellent TJB songs. Others that come to mind are Billy Joel's "Don't Ask Me Why", and "You May Be Right". Eric Clapton's "Tears In Heaven". Shania Twain's "You're Still The One" just to name a few.

David,
guess we'll never know.......

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Herb did perform Lionel Richie's "Hello" as an encore during his Bullish tour in '84.


Capt. Bacardi
...checking in from Hawaii online...

 

[thetijuanataxi]

must not have been a part of every show because he didn't play "Hello" at the Jones Beach, New York show that I saw.

David,
wishing I could have heard Herb's version

 

[Captaindave]

I also think it would be interesting to hear what Herb would do in the way of arrangements with some songs from the post TJB era.

I would like to add, however, that the TJB's rise to popularity came on some original songs that had never been performed by anyone else, and perhaps composed specifically for the TJB to record. For example - Lonely Bull, Tijuana Taxi, Spanish Flea, Mexican Shuffle, Acapulco 1922, Whipped Cream, etc. Although Zorba the Greek came from a movie of the same name, I think it was the TJB version that popularized the song. Taste of Honey was recorded by others prior to the TJB, but I don't recall anyone else having any kind of hit with it as did the TJB. I have always felt that it usually takes good quality, original songs to make an artist unique and interesting. I think the originality captures attention.

Regarding the original TJB, I am not sure that anyone knows exactly what some of them did or why they were not included in any reorganized group. Perhaps they weren't interested. Perhaps they weren't asked. Perhaps they weren't available. Who knows? But, I will always prefer the original group, even though I am quick to recognize the abilities of many of the players in the second group. For me, it's like a movie sequel - I tend to prefer the original.

Bob Findley is an excellent trumpet player.

 

[DAN BOLTON]

must not have been a part of every show because he didn't play "Hello" at the Jones Beach, New York show that I saw.

David,
wishing I could have heard Herb's version

Was Lani with him? They did the song in question together...she sang and he played. In Indy, it was done just before the intermission...Herb and the guys took five, and she did about 3 numbers with just the rhythym section backing her up...


Dan

 

[Steven J. Gross]

He played it at the Los Angeles show.

 

[Captain Bacardi]

Actually, now that I think about it I don't think it was the Bullish tour, but was at a show at the Hollywood Bowl after the Fandango album. I remember reading about it in Billboard, although I've never heard it.


Capt. Bacardi
...saying "aloha" from Hawaii, where everything ends in "lani", online...