Rock & Roll Hall of Fame: "Carpenters"

[Michael Hagerty]

If it was established the year she died she should have been among that group of 1st inductees

Musicians become eligible for induction 25 years after the release of their first commercial recording, so Carpenters' first eligibility would have been in 1994.

- and Richard has had plenty of time since to disown the institution, and his effort to get there

Richard has too much class to do that.

...it's no longer an honor to be included, given the low level of talent inducted in recent years.

Well, lessee here, this year was Kate Bush, Sheryl Crow, Missy Elliott, George Michael, Willie Nelson, Rage Against the Machine and the Spinners.

2022: Pat Benatar, Duran Duran, Eminem, Eurythmics, Dolly Parton, Lionel Richie and Carly Simon.

2021: Foo Fighters, Jay-Z, The Go-Gos, Carole King, Todd Rundgren, and Tina Turner.


All looks pretty solid to me.

 

[Portlander]

The foundation should change the name of the museum to the "World Music Hall of Fame" which would make it more relevant and eliminate the outdated rock theme they've been trying to promote for decades. When they started to induct "selected" pop, disco, country, and rap artists that met their political correctness goals the luster began to erode in my opinion. If you're not the legitimate rock and roll tribute vehicle that you claim to be, then a new marketing strategy and name change to reflect what you truly represent should be considered. This is my view whether the Carpenters were to ever get inducted or not regardless of the name on the building.

 

[Murray]

The foundation should change the name of the museum to the "World Music Hall of Fame" which would make it more relevant and eliminate the outdated rock theme they've been trying to promote for decades.

That name wouldn't be accurate either, as the Hall only includes artists who were popular in the USA. What about musicians who had successful careers in other parts of the world, but were virtually unknown in the USA?

 

[newvillefan]

2021: Foo Fighters, Jay-Z

All looks pretty solid to me.

You’re joking, right?

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

You’re joking, right?

Many would likely say the same about Carpenters. We like who we like. All are acceptable.

Ed

 

[Michael Hagerty]

You’re joking, right?

I listed twenty artists. You cherrypicked two.

Now, admittedly, they're the two I have the hardest time listening to, but that's a personal taste thing.

Foo Fighters have been around for 28 years and went platinum with their debut album---and the six albums following it. 15 Grammy awards. Tell me they don't belong in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Jay-Z? 13 albums in 27 years, every one of 'em Platinum or mutli-Platinum. 24 Grammy awards.

You may not enjoy them---I'm not gonna lie, I don't. But they clearly don't suck.

 

[newvillefan]

You may not enjoy them---I'm not gonna lie, I don't. But they clearly don't suck.

Fair enough. But they’re hardly “rock and rollers”. The Carpenters aren’t either. I think it’s the whole concept of what qualifies entry that confuses me. A more fitting description would be “Pop, Rock, Roll, Soul, Rap and Country Hall Of Fame”. The brand name has become so diluted.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

Fair enough. But they’re hardly “rock and rollers”. The Carpenters aren’t either. I think it’s the whole concept of what qualifies entry that confuses me. A more fitting description would be “Pop, Rock, Roll, Soul, Rap and Country Hall Of Fame”. The brand name has become so diluted.

Again, this isn't about a genre; this is about the "Rock" era. This is a Hall of Fame encompassing artists from the Rock era. As such, every artist inducted totally fits. I get that it's a bit confusing but that's the thought behind the name.

Ed

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Fair enough. But they’re hardly “rock and rollers”.

If we're going for strict definitions, I'll give you Jay-Z, but...

Foo Fighters aren't rock and roll?

The Carpenters aren’t either. I think it’s the whole concept of what qualifies entry that confuses me. A more fitting description would be “Pop, Rock, Roll, Soul, Rap and Country Hall Of Fame”. The brand name has become so diluted.

The answer to that is not to dilute it further by naming six genres.

40 years ago, the people who founded it thought rock and roll had conquered music and was here to stay. It's now become a somewhat dated term.

A better name, allowing for the diversity we're discussing here might be "Popular Music Hall of Fame", "Contemporary Music Hall of Fame" or something along those lines. Given that the focus is largely domestic----"American Music Hall of Fame" could even work. Yeah, the Beatles and the Stones are British, but it's hard to argue against their impact here and maybe that's the yardstick.

 

[JohnFB]

...

40 years ago, the people who founded it thought rock and roll had conquered music and was here to stay. It's now become a somewhat dated term.

A better name, allowing for the diversity we're discussing here might be "Popular Music Hall of Fame", "Contemporary Music Hall of Fame" or something along those lines. Given that the focus is largely domestic----"American Music Hall of Fame" could even work. ..

It's all so vague or ambiguous and maybe far too flexible in terms of who's included, and why - that is, by what criteria...

It seems to be a case of " I can't tell you what it is, but I sure as hell know it when I hear it". Which is nice and inclusive, but everyone hears something different. So, how can one ever hope to operate an institution reasonably and fairly when no one can define exactly what it's all about - exactly what it's honoring and who exactly should be inducted, or why, i.e., by what standards or criteria?

Rock n Roll? What's that and who's doing it? The Rock Era? When was that? When did it start and did it end?

Popular music? Contemporary music? American music? Doesn't that include just about anyone and everyone who ever sold a record or digital download, no matter who they were or what it sounded like?

Even Country music can't pin itself down any more - what passes for that genre now used to be called one form of RnR or another. Old School Country went extinct some years ago...

So, it would seem to be all one big free-for-all with anyone and anything being eligible for inclusion, depending on who the power elites in control decide arbitrarily at any given time "deserves" to be there - in other words, kind of a formless, messed up popularity contest...

Now, under this system there doesn't seem to be any good reason for excluding Carpenters - they were American, they were (and still are) both popular and contemporary.

So, what's the problem? Oh, I forgot - they were just far too decent and wholesome and straight-laced - so bland, so uncool - can't have any of that old fashioned nonsense - that fact trumps (if you'll pardon the expression) all the great popular, contemporary, American Music they made. But that's OK- there has to be some limits on who's allowed in - otherwise "there goes the neighborhood"...

 

[newvillefan]

So, it would seem to be all one big free-for-all with anyone and anything being eligible for inclusion, depending on who the power elites in control decide arbitrarily at any given time "deserves" to be there - in other words, kind of a formless, messed up popularity contest...

Spot on, hence my six-genre description above. The name is no longer representative of the institution. For me, “rock and roll” is strongly associated with the likes of Jerry Lee Lewis, Chuck Berry, Elvis and others. The Foo Fighters may be rock, but they are not “rock and roll”. And neither are a large chunk of the artists in that hall of fame.

 

[JohnFB]

... For me, “rock and roll” is strongly associated with the likes of Jerry Lee Lewis, Chuck Berry, Elvis and others. The Foo Fighters may be rock, but they are not “rock and roll”. And neither are a large chunk of the artists in that hall of fame.

Well, I don't know anything about the Foo Fighters ([what does it mean to fight Foo?) but if Willie Nelson is in there then so should they be, I guess - in fact, if he could garner enough support from the elite industry insiders who vote and control the induction process then even good, old, corny Lawrence Welk and his Champaign Orchestra should be too - hey, these boys could Rock Out on all those polkas like nobody's business...and Polka music is just another of the sub-genres under the RnR banner, right?

And where is Pat Boone?

 

[Michael Hagerty]

It's all so vague or ambiguous and maybe far too flexible in terms of who's included, and why - that is, by what criteria...

It seems to be a case of " I can't tell you what it is, but I sure as hell know it when I hear it". Which is nice and inclusive, but everyone hears something different. So, how can one ever hope to operate an institution reasonably and fairly when no one can define exactly what it's all about - exactly what it's honoring and who exactly should be inducted, or why, i.e., by what standards or criteria?

Well, no one who didn't take the time to look up the RRHOF mission statement:


Born from the collision of rhythm & blues, country, and gospel, rock & roll is a spirit that is inclusive and ever-changing. The rock & roll hall of fame celebrates the sound of youth culture and honors the artists whose music connects us all.


Or, y'know---the published standards and criteria for induction:


To be eligible for nomination, an individual artist or band must have released its first commercial recording at least 25 years prior to the year of nomination.
Nominee ballots are sent to an international voting body of more than 1,000 artists, historians, and members of the music industry. Factors such as an artist’s musical influence on other artists, length and depth of career and the body of work, innovation, and superiority in style and technique are taken into consideration.


The voting on that list of nominees, selecting the final inductees (usually seven per year):


...voted on by roughly 500 experts across the world. Those selected to vote include academics, journalists, producers, and others with music industry experience.

Now, under this system there doesn't seem to be any good reason for excluding Carpenters - they were American, they were (and still are) both popular and contemporary.

So, what's the problem? Oh, I forgot - they were just far too decent and wholesome and straight-laced - so bland, so uncool - can't have any of that old fashioned nonsense - that fact trumps (if you'll pardon the expression) all the great popular, contemporary, American Music they made. But that's OK- there has to be some limits on who's allowed in - otherwise "there goes the neighborhood"...

And that just makes a gigantic leap to a conclusion of why Carpenters haven't been included yet---with absolutely no evidence supporting it. Have a good time convincing Dolly Parton that she got in because she's not decent or wholesome. Or Neil Diamond (class of 2011), ABBA (2010), Brenda Lee (2002)....

Yes, Carpenters have been eligible since 1994. Willie Nelson's been eligible since 1987. The Spinners since 1992. They both made it in this year.

Carly Simon, Carole King, Todd Rundgren and Tina Turner are contemporaries of Carpenters---Carly and Carole eligible since 1996, Todd since 1993, and Tina since 1989. They've all been inducted in the last two years.

Might there have been some bias against the softness of the music and the image? Sure. It existed among the general public, too. And over time, even the hardest rockers have come around to admitting they love Karen's voice and respect Richard's production.

It's math. Thousands of eligible artists---six or seven inducted in a year.

Especially given Jann Wenner's expulsion from the RRHOF board over his misogynistic comments earlier this fall, I think there's a better chance than ever that we'll eventually see it happen.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Well, I don't know anything about the Foo Fighters ([what does it mean to fight Foo?)

What Were the Mysterious “Foo Fighters” Sighted by WWII Night Flyers?

Something strange was following the Beaufighter crews of the 415th Night Fighter Squadron.

www.smithsonianmag.com

And where is Pat Boone?

If you're seriously inviting a comparison between the quality of Carpenters' work and that of Pat Boone, you're on the wrong board.

 

[crescentnoon]

Should a group like, for example, T.Rex be in there already, then? Was their influence really that great, in comparison to Carpenters? There are other odd examples.

If The GoGos are in there, why not Carpenters? Karen, especially as she herself wanted to be considered a drummer first, was she not somewhat of a 'breaker of the mold'? The incredible genius she was as a singer, not withstanding, her being a drummer in the most successful American group of the 1970s, isn't that something worthy of the Rock Hall? Or is it because Karen was pushed out of the way from the drums on most of the recordings and concerts, so that aspect of the group doesn't count?
Why can't the Rock Hall do somewhat of a neat segue from the ending of the 1960s, the harsh sounds of Rock, the turmoil in the country, then here comes this sound that totally took over the radio in 1970 - and guess what! The person behind the incredibly musical voice was also the drummer! The changing sounds of music, as their own mission statement kind of proclaims. Are Carpenters not an excellent example?
I didn't care about all of this for a long time, but thinking about it all now kind of irritates me. Carpenters should have been in there already, maybe - in 1995, 25 years after Close To You.

 

[Rudy]

Foo Fighters have been around for 28 years and went platinum with their debut album---and the six albums following it. 15 Grammy awards. Tell me they don't belong in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

My thought is, how could they not get inducted? David Grohl launched Foo Fighters once Nirvana ceased to exist, and he put a melodic spin on what was originally the grunge/alternative movement at the time. I won't say he's a visionary but on the other hand, I can think of few rockers today who get the amount of respect among peers or carry the amount of influence in modern rock that Grohl does. Not only that, he respects all the music from the past, where many bands or artists are quick to put down anything they don't like--he's well aware of his musical roots. I admit the success of the first Foo Fighters album was surprising, as Grohl was playing all the instruments (he was Nirvana's drummer, but also plays guitar and probably other instruments), and I felt that many would feel it was sort of a novelty that Nirvana's former drummer was making his own record. Proved us all wrong, for sure.

David Grohl is a two-time inductee to the R&RHOF, with Nirvana (2014) and Foo Fighters (2021).

I'm not a big fan of the group or that style of music, but I still have a ton of respect for Grohl's part in it all.

Again, this isn't about a genre; this is about the "Rock" era. This is a Hall of Fame encompassing artists from the Rock era. As such, every artist inducted totally fits. I get that it's a bit confusing but that's the thought behind the name.

it's not up to us to disparage artists who do get in under these parameters. We may not like their music, and the inductions may be nothing more than a popularity contest among critics and the music industry, but all of them made enough of an impression during the rock era that it's hard to deny that most of them have earned their place in the R&RHOF.

We also can't expect our favorite artists to be eligible for induction. There are just too many out there, when inductees are limited to seven a year. Just because we like a band or artist doesn't mean they automatically qualify.

A better name, allowing for the diversity we're discussing here might be "Popular Music Hall of Fame", "Contemporary Music Hall of Fame" or something along those lines. Given that the focus is largely domestic----"American Music Hall of Fame" could even work. Yeah, the Beatles and the Stones are British, but it's hard to argue against their impact here and maybe that's the yardstick.

On the other than, they can't call it Music Hall of Fame as such an organization already exists in Nashville.

Especially given Jann Wenner's expulsion from the RRHOF board over his misogynistic comments earlier this fall, I think there's a better chance than ever that we'll eventually see it happen.

Good riddance IMHO.

 

[newvillefan]

Factors such as an artist’s musical influence on other artists, length and depth of career and the body of work, innovation, and superiority in style and technique are taken into consideration.

If these are the eligibility criteria then they should have been inducted years ago.

Musical influence - they - and Karen specifically - have influenced countless artists such as Madonna, KD Lang, The Corrs and many others.

Innovation - there was nothing more groundbreaking in the late 60s to see a female drummer, a fact which has been documented countless times in the years since.

Body of work - over a dozen studio albums, many of which contain gold selling singles. 100 million record sales today and counting.

Superiority in style - there is no parallel for their sound. What they created was a sound of their own and carved a niche as the first brother and sister duo since Fred and Adele Astaire.

Length and depth of career - they lasted four years longer than ABBA and many other inductees and crafted a body of work that included pop, Christmas material, country and blues.

If they are still being overlooked despite all this, then at some point it has to come down to some other undefined or undisclosed factor, whether that be Richard’s marmite persona and reputation among certain circles in the music industry (which I have read before) or something else we haven’t considered. It’s no confidence that they have been consistently ignored for this length of time.

 

[JohnFB]

Well, no one who didn't take the time to look up the RRHOF mission statement:


Born from the collision of rhythm & blues, country, and gospel, rock & roll is a spirit that is inclusive and ever-changing. The rock & roll hall of fame celebrates the sound of youth culture and honors the artists whose music connects us all.


Or, y'know---the published standards and criteria for induction:


To be eligible for nomination, an individual artist or band must have released its first commercial recording at least 25 years prior to the year of nomination.
Nominee ballots are sent to an international voting body of more than 1,000 artists, historians, and members of the music industry. Factors such as an artist’s musical influence on other artists, length and depth of career and the body of work, innovation, and superiority in style and technique are taken into consideration.

Mission statements and standards and criteria are all well and good - as long as those in the international voting body know what they are and firmly adhere to them - which, being the cynic that I am, I have a vague suspicion they don't - something tells me that even if they had read them at one point they have long since either forgotten them or decided to ignore them - some (most?) of them just wouldn't consider letting principals get in the way of playing favorites, or throwing someone "under the bus"...

The voting on that list of nominees, selecting the final inductees (usually seven per year):


...voted on by roughly 500 experts across the world. Those selected to vote include academics, journalists, producers, and others with music industry experience.

Again, that sounds promising, but even within that select group there's no guarantee of pertinent knowledge, or fairness of consideration...

Might there have been some bias against the softness of the music and the image? Sure. It existed among the general public, too. And over time, even the hardest rockers have come around to admitting they love Karen's voice and respect Richard's production.

I've heard that - from a scattered few maybe - but, if we could just get the "500 Experts" to admit the same thing, and act on it then that "might have been" bias might disappear and they could make it in...

 

[Rudy]

Whether it was true or not, I had read a few times, decades ago, that Jann Wenner wouldn't allow an inductee if he didn't like them, or they upset him in some way. Anytime I've read about him, he has always impressed me as being self-absorbed, opinionated, and holier than thou to anyone who crosses his path.

Still, there are many others who are just as eligible but haven't been inducted yet. Styx and Foreigner aren't even in yet, for that matter. And if the names aren't even brought up for consideration (as has been claimed about Styx and Foreigner), there's no chance they'll get in. In the grand scheme of things, being inducted really doesn't matter--it's just another award of sorts. I don't lose sleep over it. Some will never get in. The world doesn't end, and nobody takes away our music.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

If these are the eligibility criteria then they should have been inducted years ago.

Musical influence - they - and Karen specifically - have influenced countless artists such as Madonna, KD Lang, The Corrs and many others.

Innovation - there was nothing more groundbreaking in the late 60s to see a female drummer, a fact which has been documented countless times in the years since.

Body of work - over a dozen studio albums, many of which contain gold selling singles. 100 million record sales today and counting.

Superiority in style - there is no parallel for their sound. What they created was a sound of their own and carved a niche as the first brother and sister duo since Fred and Adele Astaire.

Length and depth of career - they lasted four years longer than ABBA and many other inductees and crafted a body of work that included pop, Christmas material, country and blues.

If they are still being overlooked despite all this, then at some point it has to come down to some other undefined or undisclosed factor, whether that be Richard’s marmite persona and reputation among certain circles in the music industry (which I have read before) or something else we haven’t considered. It’s no confidence that they have been consistently ignored for this length of time.

Okay. Now, objectively, tell me what bias it was that kept Carole King from being inducted until two years ago.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Whether it was true or not, I had read a few times, decades ago, that Jann Wenner wouldn't allow an inductee if he didn't like them, or they upset him in some way. Anytime I've read about him, he has always impressed me as being self-absorbed, opinionated, and holier than thou to anyone who crosses his path.

Still, there are many others who are just as eligible but haven't been inducted yet. Styx and Foreigner aren't even in yet, for that matter. And if the names aren't even brought up for consideration (as has been claimed about Styx and Foreigner), there's no chance they'll get in. In the grand scheme of things, being inducted really doesn't matter--it's just another award of sorts. I don't lose sleep over it. Some will never get in. The world doesn't end, and nobody takes away our music.

Amen.

Again, guys---it's just math. Six or seven inductees a year.

And there's no time limit. It's not like the Grammys, where your album gets one shot the year it's released and if it doesn't make it, it never will.

 

[JohnFB]

...

If you're seriously inviting a comparison between the quality of Carpenters' work and that of Pat Boone, you're on the wrong board.

Poor Pat - no one takes him seriously or gives him any respect - he's like the Rodney Dangerfield of Pop music - no, I didn't send out any invitations for a serious debate on the relative merits of Pat Boone vs Carpenters - it was just a tame little jest highlighting the idea that just about anyone can make it into the RNRHOF - but if you really want a debate, lets get it on! You have the floor...

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Poor Pat - no one takes him seriously or gives him any respect - he's like the Rodney Dangerfield of Pop music - no, I didn't send out any invitations for a serious debate on the relative merits of Pat Boone vs Carpenters - it was just a tame little jest highlighting the idea that just about anyone can make it into the RNRHOF - but if you really want a debate, lets get it on! You have the floor...

You highlight the idea that “just about anyone can make it into the RNRHOF” by citing someone who’s not?

 

[Portlander]

I'm just hoping that if the Carpenters do eventually get inducted it's while Richard is still with us and in good health to enjoy the ceremony with his family. Artists normally perform at the event if they are physically able and it would be amazing to see Richard at the piano with Karen on the video screen similar to their Hollywood Bowl enshrinement.

 

[JohnFB]

You highlight the idea that “just about anyone can make it into the RNRHOF” by citing someone who’s not?

That was the point - the jest - he's not there, but why not? Everybody and their brother can be. So, where is he? (my original question) - really bad when you have to explain them - sorry about the confusion, Michael.