Rock & Roll Hall of Fame: "Carpenters"

[Randy M]

That name wouldn't be accurate either, as the Hall only includes artists who were popular in the USA. What about musicians who had successful careers in other parts of the world, but were virtually unknown in the USA?

One of my all time favorites is the UK group T.Rex/Marc Bolan. They were hot everywhere except the US. First recordings were in 1970. Finally inducted in 2020 alongside Whitney Houston.

 

[Randy M]

Well, I don't know anything about the Foo Fighters ([what does it mean to fight Foo?) but if Willie Nelson is in there then so should they be, I guess - in fact, if he could garner enough support from the elite industry insiders who vote and control the induction process then even good, old, corny Lawrence Welk and his Champaign Orchestra should be too - hey, these boys could Rock Out on all those polkas like nobody's business...and Polka music is just another of the sub-genres under the RnR banner, right?

And where is Pat Boone?

This is where the band got their name: The term foo fighters was used by Allied aircraft pilots during World War II to describe various unidentified flying objects or mysterious aerial phenomena seen in the skies over both the European and Pacific theaters of operations.

Why is a long explanation you can find on Wikipedia.

 

[Randy M]

Should a group like, for example, T.Rex be in there already, then? Was their influence really that great, in comparison to Carpenters? There are other odd examples.

If The GoGos are in there, why not Carpenters? Karen, especially as she herself wanted to be considered a drummer first, was she not somewhat of a 'breaker of the mold'? The incredible genius she was as a singer, not withstanding, her being a drummer in the most successful American group of the 1970s, isn't that something worthy of the Rock Hall? Or is it because Karen was pushed out of the way from the drums on most of the recordings and concerts, so that aspect of the group doesn't count?
Why can't the Rock Hall do somewhat of a neat segue from the ending of the 1960s, the harsh sounds of Rock, the turmoil in the country, then here comes this sound that totally took over the radio in 1970 - and guess what! The person behind the incredibly musical voice was also the drummer! The changing sounds of music, as their own mission statement kind of proclaims. Are Carpenters not an excellent example?
I didn't care about all of this for a long time, but thinking about it all now kind of irritates me. Carpenters should have been in there already, maybe - in 1995, 25 years after Close To You.

I'm a member of the T.Rex posse, and it was a thorn in our side until T.Rex was finally inducted (alongside Whitney Houston) in 2020. No one was more rock & roll than T.Rex with Marc/T.Rex pinching from every rock & rollerer he knew.

 

[Randy M]

Okay. Now, objectively, tell me what bias it was that kept Carole King from being inducted until two years ago.

Can't say objectively, but subjectively she was been under the radar too long? She wrote great songs that other artists performed and had hits.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

That’s just splitting hairs. Some groups are known for being singles acts and some are album acts.

And after "Ticket to Ride" up until "A Kind of Hush", Carpenters were both---five platinum or multi-platinum albums in a row, which is why we can't just call them a "singles act".

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Can't say objectively, but subjectively she was been under the radar too long? She wrote great songs that other artists performed and had hits.

Thanks. I was asking the question in response to this from newvillefan :

If they are still being overlooked despite all this, then at some point it has to come down to some other undefined or undisclosed factor, whether that be Richard’s marmite persona and reputation among certain circles in the music industry (which I have read before) or something else we haven’t considered. It’s no confidence that they have been consistently ignored for this length of time.

 

[Randy M]

I've wondered sometimes why some people felt compelled to hide their love of the Carpenter's music - to be in the closet about it. It wasn't just other artists, but a number of ordinary people. They listened secretly and didn't have the courage to admit it publicly. Fear of ridicule lead to fear of standing up for your preferences, your choices, your taste in music.

Even more difficult to comprehend is the emotional motives or faulty thinking of those few rare individuals who claim to not like Karen's voice - they do exist (although the numbers are very small) and I can't figure out if they are suffering from some cerebral shortcoming, or being dishonest, or just trying to "be different". That sound which eminates from her vocal apparatus is so stunningly warm and welcoming and compelling that it boggles the mind and defies all reason to realize that there are a few who don't absolutely love it with passion. What ARE they thinking?

Yes, the time is right to correct a wrong - a wrong that has been running since 1995 or so...the voting committee of "500 experts" need to finally come out of their closets...


But it does matter and if it happens, yes, fine & dandy - I'll drink a virtual toast with everyone. Any "bubbly" will do. If not, then the gross injustice continues and the committee remains in denial, in their stuffy closet, smoking whatever they're smoking...

LOL. Being in or out of the closet for liking the Carpenters. I have taken s88t in the face if I mention them. It's like my mother getting all riled up if I mention Martha Stewart or Judge Judy. Any further conversation is shut down before the fan gets started.

 

[JohnFB]

This is where the band got their name: The term foo fighters was used by Allied aircraft pilots during World War II to describe various unidentified flying objects or mysterious aerial phenomena seen in the skies over both the European and Pacific theaters of operations.

Why is a long explanation you can find on Wikipedia.

Thanks @Randy M (and to Michael before you) - but not during the Battle of Britain (the massive air war over that Island) ?

I didn't know that and it's very interesting to find out about the Foo fighters as UFOs - I had heard of the Foo Fighters as a Rock group but I don't recall ever hearing any of their music - and my post above was mostly intended to be satirical, making a weak jest about "fighting foo" (which sounds kind of messy) and also asking why Pat Boone wasn't in the RRHOF yet ("Where is Pat Boone?") - need to refine my satirical delivery...

 

[JohnFB]

Part of the reason for all of this is because Richard really isn't interested in having the Carpenters inducted.

Wonder why not? Never mind - probably too emotional of an issue for him - or after all this time he's just numb to the whole idea...

Wonder how he'd react if by some minor miracle they were actually inducted?

 

[Randy M]

Thanks @Randy M (and to Michael before you) - but not during the Battle of Britain (the massive air war over that Island) ?

I didn't know that and it's very interesting to find out about the Foo fighters as UFOs - I had heard of the Foo Fighters as a Rock group but I don't recall ever hearing any of their music - and my post above was mostly intended to be satirical, making a weak jest about "fighting foo" (which sounds kind of messy) and also asking why Pat Boone wasn't in the RRHOF yet ("Where is Pat Boone?") - need to refine my satirical delivery...

Satire or not, I never gave much thought to what foo fighter meant, and that has lead me down the path tonight to read about them and track down some of their music. Didn't know the leader was in Nirvana. Grunge was a blip on the screen but seems to have created the resurgence of the soft rock sound (1970's) of the mid to late '90s. A lot of those groups I'm still discovering with that, "Oh yeah. I remember that song"--- from the grocery store muzak. But I never followed up with them the way I did the carpenters in 1969.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

Thanks @Randy M (and to Michael before you) - but not during the Battle of Britain (the massive air war over that Island) ?

I didn't know that and it's very interesting to find out about the Foo fighters as UFOs - I had heard of the Foo Fighters as a Rock group but I don't recall ever hearing any of their music - and my post above was mostly intended to be satirical, making a weak jest about "fighting foo"

John,

You were actually in very good company. The first time they appeared on his show in 1995, David Letterman said 'The Foo Fighters will be out here tonight to fight foo".

It became a running joke for more than 20 years---here's a good one from an appearance in 2014:

 

[JohnFB]

John,

You were actually in very good company. The first time they appeared on his show in 1995, David Letterman said 'The Foo Fighters will be out here tonight to fight foo".

It became a running joke for more than 20 years---

Thanks much Michael! Clever stuff - nice to know David & I can come up with the same corny joke years apart...

 

[Mike Blakesley]

All of you wondering why the Carpenters haven't been inducted into the RRHoF: I can give you the answer in a short list.

1. Not enough guitar solos (or not enough prominent guitar, period). Richard, with his classic gigantic piano combined with a tuxedo, comes off more like a classical performer than a pop one. They didn't SEEM like a rock act.
2. Vocals and instrumentals were "too polished" making them sound more like easy-listening than rock & roll. Putting aside Karen's spectacular voice for a moment, listen to virtually any other "soft" act that's in the Hof, like Carole King or Joni Mitchell, and compare the overall sound.
3. Too many violins, reed instruments, and harps. Too much orchestra adds to the E-Z listening sound.

All of that said, it's no big deal that they aren't included. After all, the whole enterprise has a giant stain on it now anyway, thanks to Jann Wenner showing his true idiocy with his comments. All he had to say was "I put in my favorites, that's all there is to it, those guys are all my best friends, and it was virtually impossible to put in everyone I wanted to include. There will be plenty of women and black performers coming up in Volume 2, coming out next year." If he had said that, he'd still be on the HoF board today. But no, he had to climb up on his high horse and show his true colors. I guess you have to give him a kudo for being honest, at least.

Cheap Trick (my favorite band) was eligible for about 16 years and nominated many times before they got in, so you never know. And as noted by Martin above, there are many hundreds of qualified candidates waiting in the wings, some being held out for political reasons or other nonsense that has nothing to do with music. So the Carpenters are in good company.

While waiting, if you are a subscriber to Sirius XM, look up the Howard Stern interview of Steve Miller and listen to Steve's thoughts on the RRHoF. It'll open your eyes, believe me.

 

[JohnFB]

All of you wondering why the Carpenters haven't been inducted into the RRHoF: I can give you the answer in a short list.

1. Not enough guitar solos (or not enough prominent guitar, period). ... They didn't SEEM like a rock act.
2. Vocals and instrumentals were "too polished" making them sound more like easy-listening than rock & roll. Putting aside Karen's spectacular voice for a moment...
3. Too many violins, reed instruments, and harps. Too much orchestra adds to the E-Z listening sound...

All I can say about this is that if Richard's ingenious and very tasteful use of a wide variety of orchestral instruments - and the skill that he insisted they be played with - in his mostly creative arrangements is one of the major reasons for their failure to be inducted in the HOF then that is really pathetic and inexcusable - and says so much more about the lack of knowledge and character and motives of the voting members than it does about Richard's choices.

And as far as "Easy Listening" music goes there is no accurate way to pin down a definition of that - again, it's the old story of "I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I hear it..." Maybe anything that's easy to listen to? But that varies widely from person to person. Should we consider the Beatles an Easy Listening group because they recorded "Yesterday" and "In My Life" for instance? There are countless other examples...

One of Richard's greatest achievements as an arranger/orchestrator was his brilliant hybrid arrangements that blended beautifully the predominately melodic sound of the music of the previous Era (the music he grew up with and listened to all those years in the basement and loved - the great American Songbook music) with the best features of the new Era and its Rock sound - at its heart it was an incredibly creative "fusion" of the best features of two musical worlds! And lucky him - he just happened to have a little sister who had an incomparably gorgeous voice and who served as the "leading instrument" in his master plan, in the creation of that phenomenal music we know so well and love.

All of which are - in a fair and rational world - reasons more than enough to have had them ushered into the Hall as soon as they became eligible...

 

[Portlander]

Thought I'd add this to the entertaining HOF debate. Who would be more deserving of induction, the Carpenters, Barry Manilow or John Denver? All three have similar Billboard resumes when it comes to charted hits and Top 100 all time rankings with Karen and Richard being the highest and John Denver being the lowest. Their music catalogues catered to the same pop, soft rock, easy listening demographic with John having more success on the country charts. They were also very popular around the same period (1970-1983) in music history.

All have won Grammy and American Music Awards and have exceeded the 100 million in worldwide record sales plateau. All four were accomplished musicians and Richard, Barry and John have written chart topping songs. In my opinion all three deserve to be in the R&RHOF. I would give a slight edge to the Carpenters even though I feel that John Denver and Barry Manilow both have a higher level of name recognition. This may be due to both being solo artists, John's movie success and Barry still active and touring on occasion.

And yes, none of the three are considered rock and rollers!

 

[Harry]

Using one of Mike's criteria above, (which I tend to agree with) I'd say that John Denver would have the edge of those three acts since he was a guitar player as well as singer and writer.

 

[Without A Song]

That was the point - the jest - he's not there, but why not? Everybody and their brother can be. So, where is he? (my original question) - really bad when you have to explain them - sorry about the confusion, Michael.

I hope Karen and her brother will be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame someday!

 

[JohnFB]

I hope Karen and her brother will be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame someday!

You're the second person here to pick up on my comment about "everybody and their brother" being inducted...@Michael Hagerty also did above, relating it to Karen and her brother - a point so obvious in the context, but which I failed to catch...so, I guess I'm not as clever as I'd like to believe

And, in spite of my own denigration of the Hall and my desire to see Richard be spiteful about it, I hope they make it too - Michael has indicated in several places above that he feels their chances now may be better than ever for several good reasons.

 

[crescentnoon]

"Vocals and instrumentals were "too polished" making them sound more like easy-listening than rock & roll. Putting aside Karen's spectacular voice for a moment, listen to virtually any other "soft" act that's in the Hof, like Carole King or Joni Mitchell, and compare the overall sound."

After reading this, it's just like... Sorry, Karen! Your voice was too perfect to be in the Hall of Fame! You shouldn't have put so much effort into making it sound the way you did!

I get the point you're making, but, really...

 

[Mike Blakesley]

The comment was NOT about her voice at all, but about everything EXCEPT her voice: the background instrumentation, which would have been right at home with any other classic vocalist (Sinatra, Como, Bennett, etc.). Other soft rock performers during the same era like Carole King, Joni Mitchell, and such, tended to be far less orchestrated and more focused on piano/guitar, where the Carpenters overall sound was piano/orchestra based.

This is one of those arguments that has no winners. I mean, Gary Wright is considered a rock singer with several large hits, but most of them have no guitars at all! (And he's not in the HoF either.)

 

[crescentnoon]

The comment was NOT about her voice at all, but about everything EXCEPT her voice: the background instrumentation, which would have been right at home with any other classic vocalist (Sinatra, Como, Bennett, etc.). Other soft rock performers during the same era like Carole King, Joni Mitchell, and such, tended to be far less orchestrated and more focused on piano/guitar, where the Carpenters overall sound was piano/orchestra based.

This is one of those arguments that has no winners. I mean, Gary Wright is considered a rock singer with several large hits, but most of them have no guitars at all! (And he's not in the HoF either.)

My apologies for misinterpreting your comment and I appreciate you taking the time to explain it better. Thank you.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

They have a somewhat small 'current artists' section and during my visit this past summer, Sam Smith was included in it. I couldn't walk by fast enough.
Carpenters don't need the Hall for their legacy and I maintain that they are classier and more musically talented than the Hall's usual suspects.
YouTube will do more for their legacy than a Rock Hall acknowledgement ever will.

The Hall will be adding on a section to the building in the coming years - I believe in a section of the open area between the building and the Great Lakes Science Center. Maybe they can focus more on the music instead of the 'cool' clothes and other random memorabilia that is currently displayed in a somewhat disorganized, crowded manner.

The sales bump an artist’s catalog gets after induction says otherwise. Heck, Cheap Trick got a 2-album major label deal out of it.

I know the fans want Carpenters in the HOF (even those who “don’t care”). However, Richard made VERY soft music with only occasional edge and groove. I won’t pretend to know what their criteria is but it can’t be that. Karen made it work for a few albums and in turn revealed herself to be the finest female pop singer ever. Richard knows it and we do too. I know this won’t be a popular thing to say but KAREN made this work. If Richard had paired his arrangements with anyone else, it wouldn’t have worked. In fact, he tried to a few times (Dionne, Dusty, Scott Grimes, female whose name escapes me, and even himself) and no one was interested. It only worked because of Karen. Karen is gone. Once she was, Richard’s career was effectively over.

I contend that it’s the softness of the arrangements that have kept Carpenters out of the HOF. Only time will tell if the HOF overlooks that at some point. If they do, it’ll be because of Karen’s voice and the way it’s influenced many other singers (male and female) even decades after she’s passed.

Ed

 

[JohnFB]

"Vocals and instrumentals were "too polished" making them sound more like easy-listening than rock & roll. Putting aside Karen's spectacular voice for a moment, listen to virtually any other "soft" act that's in the Hof, like Carole King or Joni Mitchell, and compare the overall sound."

After reading this, it's just like... Sorry, Karen! Your voice was too perfect to be in the Hall of Fame! You shouldn't have put so much effort into making it sound the way you did!

I get the point you're making, but, really...

I understand your frustration - and it does boggle the mind to realize that many millions of people around the world loved the Carpenter's music precisely because it was polished and so easy to listen to - in other words, highly creative and thoroughly professional to the highest musical degree - and they adored Karen and her spectacular and perfect voice - the message from the Hall has always been, in effect, that they just weren't good enough to be inducted (although there were other nefarious excuses) - but the hard, cold truth may be that the Carpenters were just too damn good for the Hall, which never knew how to handle them or what to do with them - or how they were going to explain to the power elites how the Carpenters ever got in...but in the end it doesn't matter that much because their place in the history of music is firmly established.

 

[rockdoctor]

Musicians become eligible for induction 25 years after the release of their first commercial recording, so Carpenters' first eligibility would have been in 1994.



Richard has too much class to do that.



Well, lessee here, this year was Kate Bush, Sheryl Crow, Missy Elliott, George Michael, Willie Nelson, Rage Against the Machine and the Spinners.

2022: Pat Benatar, Duran Duran, Eminem, Eurythmics, Dolly Parton, Lionel Richie and Carly Simon.

2021: Foo Fighters, Jay-Z, The Go-Gos, Carole King, Todd Rundgren, and Tina Turner.


All looks pretty solid to me.

I always wondered why Carole King was snubbed for so many years as an artist. She should have been one of the first women inducted. Her eligibility could actually have been earlier since she was recording in the 60's. I believe that The Carpenters should be inducted as well as many other artists of the rock and roll era that are continually omitted. Some examples- Petula Clark- Not rock but the most successful of the female artists of the British Invasion. The 5th Dimension-Great album and singles sales and quality singing. The Association-Great vocals and songwriting. Sergio Mendes& Brasil'66- Sergio is the most successful of the Brazilian artists. Diana Ross as a solo-what gives there? Barbra Streisand-most successful woman singer of all time-again, what gives? Judy Collins- From the same era as Joan Baez and quality albums but ignored. I think The Pointer Sisters were quality artists that should be inducted.

 

[JohnFB]

The 5th Dimension-Great album and singles sales and quality singing. Barbra Streisand-most successful woman singer of all time...

Yes, absolutely - music not exactly Rock? Who gives a good crap - talent like this should not be excluded from any Hall of Fame...