Rock & Roll Hall of Fame: "Carpenters"

[1969]

I recall a recent article where there was a quote (about Richard and Karen) from some artist where they said something like, "Oh, they didn't write their own music....... Didn't they just do covers of other people's music?" That comment didn't sit well with me, but there's some truth to it. Richard co-wrote 3 of their biggest hits (TOTW, YOM, GTL) but after that nothing more. If you look at the recent Hall of Fame inductees, a good majority are singer/songwriters, so I wonder if Karen and Richard are at a disadvantage for not writing the bulk of their music? A Rock & Roll Hall of Fame induction would be nice, but I think a more reachable honor for Richard and Karen and bigger question is why haven't they been honored with a Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award yet?

 

[Portlander]

I'd add "Only Yesterday" to the mix which went #4 US, #2 Canada and #1 AC charts in 1975. "I Need to be in Love" also was a #1 AC hit and should have fared better than #25 in the Top 40 but radio stations were already dismissing the Carpenters around this time. Sadly, I still believe that the Neil Sedaka incident was a huge factor in their decline and I remember the negative fallout very well as I was a senior year in high school. Even my mother sided with poor Neil who was just trying to make a comeback! Totally agree with your point on not yet receiving a Grammy OR an American Music Lifetime Achievement Award seeing they were an inaugural winner in 1974.

 

[newvillefan]

Sadly, I still believe that the Neil Sedaka incident was a huge factor in their decline and I remember the negative fallout very well as I was a senior year in high school. Even my mother sided with poor Neil who was just trying to make a comeback!

Largely down to two factors:

1) Poor management by Sherwin Bash, who was lining his own pockets booking them year on year to their detriment; and
2) Richard and Neil’s own huge egos.

Why did Richard re-sign with Sherwin Bash all those years later? He’s not known for being one to go back and rekindle severed connections.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

"I Need to be in Love" also was a #1 AC hit and should have fared better than #25 in the Top 40 but radio stations were already dismissing the Carpenters around this time.

I did a post about three years ago here on why the Billboard AC chart was pretty close to meaningless (and I was an AC programmer at that time).

Carpenters: Adult Contemporary Chart vs Billboard Hot 100

My usual caveat - if this has been discussed elsewhere, apologies, I didn't find anything in my admittedly brief search. When looking over the Carpenters hit songs, there were 15 A/C #1 hits. All but 5 of those were also in the top 10 overall on the Billboard Hot 100 (see chart below). If you...

forum.amcorner.com

As for Top 40, "I Need to Be in Love" was the second single off a less-than-hot album (peaked at #33, lowest peak since TICKET TO RIDE, also the first since that to not go Platinum), and that first single, which continued what had been a hot oldies remake streak for Carpenters, at a time when other artists (Four Seasons, Dr. Hook, Linda Ronstadt, James Taylor) were still doing very well with nostalgia-based singles, only got to #12.

Looking at back issues of Radio & Records, which charted airplay and not sales, "I Need to Be in Love" got airplay at some major Top 40 stations---99X in New York, KHJ in Los Angeles, and a few dozen others---but KHJ was the only place it went Top 10, peaking at #9. Most places, it was lucky to get above the mid-20s on the stations' charts. The audience wasn't enthusiastic.

Let's remember what the summer of '76 charts were starting to look like at Top 40: Gary Wright, Steve Miller Band, Wings, Queen, The Doobie Brothers, Peter Frampton, Aerosmith, Fleetwood Mac----it was the beginning of a two-year-plus cycle of big hit singles coming from big hit albums by artists that a couple of years before were considered to be more FM album rock artists. It was what was happening around Carpenters while they put out an album with "Goofus" as the third single.

 

[Portlander]

With the tastes in Top 40 music evolving during this period and the myriad of talented artists that were taking over the airwaves, I feel a little better about the success of "I Need to be in Love" which Richard co-wrote after your post Michael. With the odds stacked against them, the Carpenters still managed a top 25 hit and made it to the #1 position on the AC charts whether that Billboard format was deemed close to meaningless or not. 15 number one Adult Contemporary hits is a source of pride for me and many other fans and I'm sure Elton John who eventually surpassed the Carpenters would not dismiss his own accomplishment.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

With the tastes in Top 40 music evolving during this period and the myriad of talented artists that were taking over the airwaves, I feel a little better about the success of "I Need to be in Love" which Richard co-wrote after your post Michael. With the odds stacked against them, the Carpenters still managed a top 25 hit and made it to the #1 position on the AC charts whether that Billboard format was deemed close to meaningless or not. 15 number one Adult Contemporary hits is a source of pride for me and many other fans and I'm sure Elton John who eventually surpassed the Carpenters would not dismiss his own accomplishment.

I have never heard any artist who had significant chart success on the Hot 100 mention their AC chart track record. It's what you talk about if it's all you've got.

The artists especially knew that the AC chart was meaningless. It was based on airplay from MOR and AC stations, was not an indicator of additional sales, and, unlike Country and R&B, it's not a type of music that crossed over to the Hot 100 so infrequently that it needed a separate chart to accurately track the music.

There were also so many outright stiffs that made the Billboard Easy Listening/Adult Contemporary chart---in some cases the top ten of that chart---that bragging about your AC chart history instead of your Hot 100 stats is like saying "A lot of radio stations played my records---and still, nobody bought most of them".

In the thread where I wrote about the AC chart, David A. summed it up beautifully:

 

[Sing]

I agree that YouTube will do more for the Carpenters' legacy than the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. I was 17 when Karen Carpenter died and I don't remember hearing many Carpenters tunes when I was growing up. Maybe that's because I usually listened to FM "rock radio." My parents listened to Linda Ronstadt, Elton John, Billy Joel, Jim Croce, Cat Stevens and Gordon Lightfoot. But there was no Carpenters album in the house.

One year ago, at the age of 56, I see a video of a live performance of the Carpenters playing a Bacharach/David medley. Whenever the word "Carpenters" came up, it always seemed that there was a suggestion that the Carpenters wrote nothing but cringy music that we'd all like to forget. But I decided to watch the Carpenters Bacharach video on YouTube anyway, just out of curiosity.

I was blown away by their performance and spent the next month binge watching Carpenters videos on YouTube and the following month purchasing Carpenters CDs and downloads.

My favorite band, Jethro Tull, isn't in the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame either. This just goes to show that musical tastes differ wildly from person to person. What is "classic" from the perspective of one person is complete garbage from the perspective of another person.

 

[Late2theParty]

The quirky story of The King trying to get a DEA shield fromTricky Dick wasn't going to hurt "the King of Rock n' Roll" from "hallhood." I think the Carpenters two visits to the Nixon White House are enough of an excuse for those who don't like their image to keep them out of the hall. And they couldn't be more wrong. Richard's use of Tony's fuzz solo introducing "Goodbye to Love" as a power ballad, RIchard's shoulder-rubbing with musicians like Zappa, and their sheer sales numbers should be enough to get consideration, but sadly it will probably won't happen. Heck, the fact that another great band, Supertramp, that was signed with A & M's Carpenters' profits, isn't in the HOF either shows that there is something rotten in Cleveland.

 

[Late2theParty]

The quirky story of The King trying to get a DEA shield fromTricky Dick wasn't going to hurt "the King of Rock n' Roll" from "hallhood." I think the Carpenters two visits to the Nixon White House are enough of an excuse for those who don't like their image to keep them out of the hall. And they couldn't be more wrong. Richard's use of Tony's fuzz solo introducing "Goodbye to Love" as a power ballad, RIchard's shoulder-rubbing with musicians like Zappa, and their sheer sales numbers should be enough to get consideration, but sadly it will probably won't happen. Heck, the fact that another great band, Supertramp, that was signed with A & M's Carpenters' profits, isn't in the HOF either shows that there is something rotten in Cleveland.

I wanted to add...

I once had a convo with the Nixon aide (former "Plumber" Bud Krogh) who arranged the meeting with Elvis, and wrote a fun quirky book about it. We had a nice talk about the "vibe" in those days. Can you imagine if R & C had been invited to White House during the Trump years? If you weren't of age during the Nixon years, this is about the best comparison I could make as to how toxic it could be to be associated with a president who is out of favor but in the 1970s you go because the president requests your attendance. I watch that film clip of their performance and see Karen talk about it being an honor, and wonder if that stuck in the craw of the music types that are now making these decisions.

 

[Sing]

The tennis star Andre Agassi said (using lines given to him in a camera commerical), "Image is everything." There is an element of truth to this in Rock n Roll generally and certainly with respect to admission to the Rock n Roll hall of fame.

 

[Sing]

I hate to be cynical. But if Karen and Richard had been busted for heroin possession, they would almost certainly be in the Rock n Roll hall of fame right now.

 

[Jack A.]

For what it's worth (if anything), I voted for them to be inducted when I visited the HoF today.

 

[byline]

If these are the eligibility criteria then they should have been inducted years ago.

Musical influence - they - and Karen specifically - have influenced countless artists such as Madonna, KD Lang, The Corrs and many others.

Innovation - there was nothing more groundbreaking in the late 60s to see a female drummer, a fact which has been documented countless times in the years since.

Body of work - over a dozen studio albums, many of which contain gold selling singles. 100 million record sales today and counting.

Superiority in style - there is no parallel for their sound. What they created was a sound of their own and carved a niche as the first brother and sister duo since Fred and Adele Astaire.

Length and depth of career - they lasted four years longer than ABBA and many other inductees and crafted a body of work that included pop, Christmas material, country and blues.

If they are still being overlooked despite all this, then at some point it has to come down to some other undefined or undisclosed factor, whether that be Richard’s marmite persona and reputation among certain circles in the music industry (which I have read before) or something else we haven’t considered. It’s no confidence that they have been consistently ignored for this length of time.

I absolutely agree with this. I would also cite their versatility in crossing over different musical genres (country with "Top of the World" and rock/power pop with "Goodbye to Love").

Now, do I lie awake at night worrying about it? No. There are so many astute observations in this thread about other solo artists and groups who have been left out, when clearly they meet the induction criteria.

If it does happen that the Carpenters are inducted, it will undoubtedly be met with some of the "What has this world come to?" head-shaking and eye-rolling directed at other artists in this thread. But it would also cement the Carpenters' musical reputation in an arena that long rejected it, and rejected it for all the wrong reasons. Something that Richard talks about to this day.

 

[Michael Hagerty]

So, you're saying that our contribution here is being caretakers of the "lost elements of pop music"? Ha! I knew we had an important mission...

Wouldn't be a bit surprised. I also participate on a broadcasting board. It's been around for 25 years. Mass communications students check it before writing term papers, producers of documentaries and the research team for Quentin Tarantino's "Once Upon A Time In Hollywood" have, at various times, let us know they're there---trying to get the detail from people who were there when important stuff happened.

Get it wrong and you're not just doing a disservice to the people who read it the day you post it.

 

[byline]

So, you're saying that our contribution here is being caretakers of the "lost elements of pop music"? Ha! I knew we had an important mission...

I have cited threads on this board elsewhere, numerous times. For example, there's a Facebook thread started by none other than Stewart Copeland acknowledging Karen's talent as a drummer. Not surprisingly, there are some inaccurate posts there, which I have tried to correct by citing posts here. So I think forums like this one not only help us fans discuss what we love, but they also play their part in preserving the historical record.

 

[Harry]

I have cleaned up this thread, removing my errant and offending posts and a few others around them. Let's just say it's in the interest of accuracy.

 

[JohnFB]

I'm glad my satirical comments about us here being the caretakers of the lost elements of pop music and about that being an important mission elicited a little serious commentary about that role and mission - and I'm glad we have among us those who are willing and able to explain & defend them.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

While it is interesting to see Karen’s drumming get props, Karen’s main calling card was her voice. There are absolutely better drummers than Karen; there are no better female pop singers than Karen. She has been an acknowledged influence on many singers - both male and female for decades. If anything gets them into the HOF, it’ll be her voice.

Ed

 

[byline]

While it is interesting to see Karen’s drumming get props, Karen’s main calling card was her voice. There are absolutely better drummers than Karen; there are no better female pop singers than Karen. She has been an acknowledged influence on many singers - both male and female for decades. If anything gets them into the HOF, it’ll be her voice.

Ed

True, but let's not forget that she has also influenced female drummers ... however buried that is from the public eye. And I think that multi-faceted influence is one of the things that should work in the Carpenters' favor, in terms of induction into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.

 

[Vinylalbumcovers]

True, but let's not forget that she has also influenced female drummers ... however buried that is from the public eye. And I think that multi-faceted influence is one of the things that should work in the Carpenters' favor, in terms of induction into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.

She has...but it doesn't matter, honestly. Her voice is what made her special...and she is the most special female Pop vocalist we'll ever hear. No one can touch her there. I still say that eventually, they'll get there. That voice isn't possible to ignore. It actually makes the HOF look bad and incomplete to not have her there.

Ed

 

[Nemily]

She has...but it doesn't matter, honestly. Her voice is what made her special...and she is the most special female Pop vocalist we'll ever hear. No one can touch her there. I still say that eventually, they'll get there. That voice isn't possible to ignore. It actually makes the HOF look bad and incomplete to not have her there.

Ed

But aptitude does matter. Yes, Karen Carpenter is absolutely the greatest female Pop singer we will ever hear. But there was something also special about her musicality, her authenticity. Things that, at least to me, don’t seem to be insignificant contributions to Richard and Karen’s impact on music history.

Re-stating something I posted some time ago, when Karen was simultaneously drumming and singing, she was doing 5 things at the same time. Effortlessly. This is something that is extremely hard to do by anyone regardless of gender and one of those things (singing of course) she was doing better than anyone else in the entire world. It was never at a cost to her vocal performance. I was some years younger than the Carpenters when they arrived on the scene, but I don’t recall any other females doing this before Karen did it.

Last year I got a hold of a CD of the entire Carpenters segments of Your Navy Presents with Sam Riddle. It’s a needle drop of course, but it sounds great. The music for Sam Riddle’s Your Navy Presents radio show was recorded in the A&M studio around March-April of 1970, around the same time (They Long to Be) Close to You was recorded (March 24, 1970). If anyone that has not yet heard these recordings, and gets an opportunity to listen to K&R in their organic unpolished state before everything got crazy, it is a formidable example of Richard being right. Karen was a marvel (in addition to being the greatest female Pop singer we will ever hear).

 

[byline]

But aptitude does matter. Yes, Karen Carpenter is absolutely the greatest female Pop singer we will ever hear. But there was something also special about her musicality, her authenticity. Things that, at least to me, don’t seem to be insignificant contributions to Richard and Karen’s impact on music history.

I agree, absolutely. I also believe that one of the reasons Karen was such a good singer was thanks to her talent as a drummer. The rhythmic precision in her singing was impeccable. Maybe too impeccable, sometimes. But Karen's keen sense of rhythm helped to create stunning interpretations of song lyrics. And then, as you point out, to be able to do singing and drumming simultaneously, and do both so well, revealed the true measure of Karen's immense talent.

 

[rockdoctor]

Karen and Richard do belong in the RRHOF along with so many other artists, too many to mention. To me, it seems that the truly great solo artists are being snubbed year after year. Barbra Streisand is, beyond the shadow of a doubt, the most successful female artist in rock and roll history but she is continually snubbed. I have visited the hall with groups three times and was not overall impressed. I was hoping there was more about the actual artists but was disappointed that there was very little about the artists.
Their CD selection was very good but a bit pricey for me.

 

[Jack A.]

I have visited the hall with groups three times and was not overall impressed.

It’s one of those things where you do it once, and then you’ve experienced it. There’s really not much of a point of going more than once, after you’ve seen everything there is to see.

 

[rockdoctor]

It’s one of those things where you do it once, and then you’ve experienced it. There’s really not much of a point of going more than once, after you’ve seen everything there is to see.

I was with three different groups over 8 years so I was hoping for better.